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Old Oct 17, 2012, 08:23 PM   #1
Rogifan
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Confusion between Windows 8 and Windows RT

Microsoft better fix this fast.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/3...tore-employees
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 02:14 AM   #2
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That is a great thing, it will keep people at Apple and move others who where on the fence to move to iPad. Then iPad could become really popular and Apple could finally do what people really want and drop Intel for good, by introducing ARM based machines running full OSX!
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 03:10 AM   #3
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I've been banging on about this for ages.

Consumers WILL get mislead by ill informed store staff in electronic outlets across the world.

I only have to walk into a PC world or Harvey Normans, hover around the computer sections and within few seconds you can hear sales staff talking utter BS about product A and how it's better than product B and they are just making stiff up, or giving totally inaccurate info.

Windows RT devices & store staff will fool consumers into thinking because it shares the nae Windows and because on a demonstration booth it looks identical, that they are getting a full 'Windows' experience.

People then thnk it will be compatible with all their existing hardware (printers/scanners) and software. They are going to be in for quite the disappointing realisation.


Quote:
Now, it's not news that technology salesmen aren't generally known for product knowledge, just as Windows RT's lack of backwards compatibility wasn't news to all. Admittedly, the void between Windows 8 and Windows RT would be difficult even for seasoned technology vets to explain, much less your average retail employee. The operating systems look and feel so alike, and the reasons behind the lack of legacy apps are so technical that consumers might tune out. Even if Microsoft said "it doesn't run legacy apps" outright to every single buyer, would they understand what that meant?
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 06:06 AM   #4
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Yeah it sounds like this might lead to quite a facepalm situation for MS indeed. Especially with the keyboard/touch covers out at the same time, I can see how many would be lured into thinking that a Surface RT with a keyboard cover is a pretty good replacement for their Windows laptop.

And then second wave of fail will come when people realize that the touch/keyboard covers themselves are actually appaling to type on. I was really rooting for MS here to get some needed competition for Apple, but it feels like they've rushed this whole thing a bit.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 06:48 AM   #5
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Consumers WILL get mislead by ill informed store staff in electronic outlets across the world.
I'm not so sure - they buy a Windows RT tablet thinking that there's no difference. They have a handful of apps that they need to run - usually office and the like. They're really not going to notice a difference in this case.

Sure there's compatibility issues with the RT flavor but given how consumers will use tablets I believe that issue is rather moot.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:02 AM   #6
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I'm not so sure - they buy a Windows RT tablet thinking that there's no difference. They have a handful of apps that they need to run - usually office and the like. They're really not going to notice a difference in this case.

Sure there's compatibility issues with the RT flavor but given how consumers will use tablets I believe that issue is rather moot.
The problem is that these are not being marketed as 'just tablets' in the same sense that iPad and Android tablets are. A person looking at an iOS or Android tablet can clearly see they are not computers.



These are being portrayed more like computers, especially when a person walks into a store, sees a row of laptops running Windows 8 and then they see a row of touchscreen desktops running windows 8, then they see a range of TABLETS with Atom (cough netbooks) or i3-i5-i7 running windows 8 with promise of full windows experience, then they see another set of Tablets that look identical to the other tablets and laptop / desktop devices; but this time they are running Windows RT that from the same quick hands-on in store all of the devices look and feel/behave the same, they are going to think they are ALL the same thing..... And who can blame them....

Windows RT Tablets look and act like Windows 8 Tablets. So you can't just assume consumers expectations are different, and that they will know the difference between them to even tailor those expectations.

What so this tablet I can install my software, but this tablet that looks identical I cant ?

It's messy.... not for the tech savvy, but for general consumer and parents buying computers for their kids / teens then yes.. it's a mess, and ill informed shop staff will only add to that mess.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:06 AM   #7
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Windows RT Tablets look and act like Windows 8 Tablets. So you can't just assume consumers expectations are different, and that they will know the difference between them to even tailor those expectations.
I believe consumers, particularly windows users are accustomed to buying/upgrading their apps when they either buy a new computer or upgrade to a new OS. To that end, they'll not be incredibly surprised that any windows apps that they currently have won't work. What mitigates this issue is the inability to actually load those apps, i.e. no optical drive. They'll have to go to the app store to purchase and use the apps. So in the end they'll have what they need and generally won't notice too much difference.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:12 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
I believe consumers, particularly windows users are accustomed to buying/upgrading their apps when they either buy a new computer or upgrade to a new OS.
This has not been my experience. I work for a lot of National Schools and sort out a lot of computers here locally and rarely do they spend more money on software than they have to, so if they can get a new computer but run the same office 2003, etc.. software, they are happy to do so.


Plus your forgetting another issue, peripherals. People don't go out and buy a new set of peripherals every-time they change OS or get a new computer. They are often using same printers / scanners etc... Now explain to them that they will never be able to use them in this tablet A, but they can in this tablet B despite them looking identical...
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:16 AM   #9
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Are there 3rd party keyboards that will work with Surface or do you have to use either the touch cover or type cover?
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Are there 3rd party keyboards that will work with Surface or do you have to use either the touch cover or type cover?
Supports bluetooth, and USB keyboards so in theory should be ok in that regard.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MacRumorUser View Post
This has not been my experience. I work for a lot of National Schools and sort out a lot of computers here locally and rarely do they spend more money on software than they have to, so if they can get a new computer but run the same office 2003, etc.. software, they are happy to do so.
It has been mine and that's not from a family member buying/upgrading but also as one who used to work in computer stores.

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Plus your forgetting another issue, peripherals. People don't go out and buy a new set of peripherals every-time they change OS or get a new computer. They are often using same printers / scanners etc... Now explain to them that they will never be able to use them in this tablet A, but they can in this tablet B despite them looking identical...
I'm not seeing this as a problem - does any tablet (iPad, Nexus, surface) have traditional ports to hook up to peripherals? I'd be surprised that by and large many consumers will be upset that the Surface will not hook directly up to their scanner or printer, especially since no tablet (that I'm aware of) is capable of doing this.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:25 AM   #12
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I'm not seeing this as a problem - does the (any) tablet have traditional ports to hook up to peripherals? I'd be surprised that by and large many consumers will be upset at the Surface will not hook directly up to their scanner or printer, especially since no tablet (that I'm aware of) is capable of doing this.
Because your continually seeing a clear distinction between tablet and laptop/desktop.

My point hinges on the fact that Windows RT tablets are not distinct enough from Windows 8 tablets laptops & desktops, which will allow this.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:27 AM   #13
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I think you're trying to shoehorn the MS tablet into the same category as a desktop and that's just not the case.

True with the X86 version of the surface you can run desktop apps and that's a huge plus, the RT will have the ability to run office and other MS apps but its still a tablet and most people understand that, they're not going to expect tablets to have the same capabilities, expandability and features of a desktop computer
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 07:33 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by maflynn View Post
I think you're trying to shoehorn the MS tablet into the same category as a desktop and that's just not the case.

True with the X86 version of the surface you can run desktop apps and that's a huge plus, the RT will have the ability to run office and other MS apps but its still a tablet and most people understand that, they're not going to expect tablets to have the same capabilities, expandability and features of a desktop computer
No I'm not shoehorning, microsoft is, that's my point.

If you have two tablets, both looking identical, one runs full windows, one doesn't but both look the same in store, how am I the one confusing the devices ?


The fact they are making these tablets that do offer the full desktop experiences is what differentiates them from other tablet makers and you can bet your bottom dollar that what sales staff push to the consumer.

If they really wanted consumers to know they were different and there was no contradiction between a tablet and a desktop/laptop experience, then there would be NO need for Surface Pro or other tablets running windows 8 pro.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 08:38 AM   #15
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Supports bluetooth, and USB keyboards so in theory should be ok in that regard.
Hmm...I haven't heard MS say anything about it (obviously they want you to purchase their $120 keyboard). If 3rd party keyboards work I can see a lot of people using that option as I'm sure they'll be cheaper.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 10:04 AM   #16
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Avoid any Microsoft Version 1 product.

Usually takes Microsoft 3 tries to get a product done the correct way.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 01:21 PM   #17
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I've been saying this is going to be a problem for months.

The Windows legacy is huge and people will expect their gadgets and software to run on RT because Microsoft failed to make a clearer distinction between the two.

They should have just called it Surface OS and ran it on phones and tablets in the same way iOS runs on phones and tablets.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 01:57 PM   #18
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For once, I actually kind agree with you, Technarchy. I understand that MS wants to blur the line between tablets and PCs, but they might've gone a bit too far in this regard. When people see the Windows name, they expect it to be capable of everything Windows can do. When they get RT, they're going to see it's basically another platform running an entirely new set of software.

Plus how can they call it Windows when it doesn't have any windows in it? Should've called it Vinyl Siding or something.

While I don't think it's gonna be the huge panic some people are making it out to be, I do think there is going to be some confusion going on. Considering the future of the line relies on a lot of peoples good first impression, this is a problem that could've been easily avoided just by calling it something else right now, then bringing them together later once MS gets a little more traction.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 04:09 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MacRumorUser View Post
Because your continually seeing a clear distinction between tablet and laptop/desktop.

My point hinges on the fact that Windows RT tablets are not distinct enough from Windows 8 tablets laptops & desktops, which will allow this.
I think in some ways there are since many off the full 8 devices being Atom :`-( or i Core :`-( come with an active digitzer option, and in the case of some of the i core devices larger screens(largest RT device is still the Surface at 10.6", while many full 8 devices are 11.6in).

----------

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Avoid any Microsoft Version 1 product.

Usually takes Microsoft 3000 tries to get a product done the correct way.
Fixed.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 04:16 PM   #20
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I'm not so sure - they buy a Windows RT tablet thinking that there's no difference. They have a handful of apps that they need to run - usually office and the like. They're really not going to notice a difference in this case.

Sure there's compatibility issues with the RT flavor but given how consumers will use tablets I believe that issue is rather moot.
Based on Paul Thurott's preview it seems to be a pretty full feature set (although I haven't explicitly seen redlining mentioned in any feature list). However, one should note that MS is gunning to extract more money for Office; this version is only licensed for non-commercial use. Note the comment chain in this article: many business users will already have a license and other business users will just deliberately cheat. But make no mistake: MS is definitely expecting to get more $$$ from commercial users.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 09:43 PM   #21
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but its still a tablet and most people understand that,
Except unless it is a Windows 8 tablet which CAN run desktop applications.

You are totally missing the point. It is going to be a marketing nightmare for Microsoft to effectively communicate the differences between Windows 8 tablets and Windows RT tablets.
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Old Oct 18, 2012, 11:34 PM   #22
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RT will be a flop. It's too late to the market and Surface Pro is just another low powered ultrabook with floppy keyboard. 2 years later RT will be killed off and super slim touch screen ultrabook / tablet hybrids will be in the $500 range. RT is a stop gap without a future. You're stuck in a walled garden like an iPad and have to purchase apps all over again from a bare windows store. . . word documents with have compatibility issues with other versions of word like we've come to expect and you won't be able to run macros. I can see a fire sale already in the next 12-24 months. You're getting a 2010 product at a 2010 price. Windows RT (Rotten Trash)
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 04:26 AM   #23
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RT will be a flop. It's too late to the market and Surface Pro is just another low powered ultrabook with floppy keyboard. 2 years later RT will be killed off and super slim touch screen ultrabook / tablet hybrids will be in the $500 range. RT is a stop gap without a future. You're stuck in a walled garden like an iPad and have to purchase apps all over again from a bare windows store. . . word documents with have compatibility issues with other versions of word like we've come to expect and you won't be able to run macros. I can see a fire sale already in the next 12-24 months. You're getting a 2010 product at a 2010 price. Windows RT (Rotten Trash)
Might be but not sure how its a 2010 product, isn't the processor a Tegra 3 still the current nVidia one used in many Android devices?

A good question is why did MS go with a ARM based OS and device at all?
Samsung, Acer, etc., are building Atom based win8 tablets that are the same cost, fanless with even a longer battery life and they run all the old windows software as well?
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 06:08 AM   #24
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Might be but not sure how its a 2010 product, isn't the processor a Tegra 3 still the current nVidia one used in many Android devices?
because they are 2.5 years behind the ball. the price is too high, they're just starting the windows apstore for tablets, there's no LTE and the screen resolution is close to the ipad2. It's a gimped closed system. which looks like windows 8 but isn't. There's no GPS, no LTE etc.

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A good question is why did MS go with a ARM based OS and device at all?
Samsung, Acer, etc., are building Atom based win8 tablets that are the same cost, fanless with even a longer battery life and they run all the old windows software as well?
So you have to pay the overlords $99 for the privilege of developing a "Metro" app" Microsoft is trying to have more control and they can create they're own walled garden like Apple.
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Old Oct 19, 2012, 07:15 AM   #25
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Except unless it is a Windows 8 tablet which CAN run desktop applications.

You are totally missing the point. It is going to be a marketing nightmare for Microsoft to effectively communicate the differences between Windows 8 tablets and Windows RT tablets.
Why? 1 can run metro apps the other all apps . Does apple have to explain the difference between an ipad and a macbook?
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