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Old Nov 6, 2012, 04:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Jessica Lares View Post
Microsoft already tried Ultra Premium years ago and it failed. The Tablet PC didn't take off, and I don't think the Surface will either. I guarantee you that the Surface Pro will just be another machine that people leave behind at work, just like the DELL and Toshiba laptops I see my dad bring home all the time.
Difference is back then, the tablet PC was a laptop with a resistive touch screen. The OS used on Tablet PC's was basically XP with a tacked on touch UI, not an OS that was designed from the ground up with touch in mind. More importantly, there was no real tablet market back then. Totally different product and environment back then.

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The real problem I see though is that Microsoft is trying to capture the younger crowd with the colorful keyboards and touchscreen. Obviously, the machine costs $500, and the keyboard $120. That is about the cost of a mid-range traditional laptop with a large hard drive and better specs. No parent is going to buy their kid that when there are much cheaper options like the iPad Mini/Kindle Fire HD 8.9" and a Bluetooth keyboard. They don't care about the apps, they just want something for their kid to be able to take notes, write papers on, and read their textbooks.
Without piggybacking off Windows 8 popularity or the Pro's success, the Surface RT will probably be another iPad competitor that fails to gain significant marketshare. And that has more to do with branding than price.

But the Pro version isn't geared toward kids, and isn't trying to compete directly with the iPad or any existing tablet. It's trying to create a new high end market, which I think there's a need for. I've left my iPad 1 in the trunk of my car for the past 2 months because the most I use it for is as an e-reader or browsing the web. Give me a slate form factor device I can use to create Office documents, edit CAD drawings, and program on and I'll buy it. There's nothing on the market that can do that to a capable degree right now.

The biggest criticism I have of Apple is as good as their OS and hardware is, they don't pay enough attention to software. They've made it so the app store is the only way you can install software on your mobile device. So you have a ton of apps for sale, but only one store, and the commoditization has driven down prices/profit and turned mobile software into a budget market. Because it's a budget market, no one's creating power apps. Because there are no power apps, people still need their laptops to do the more complicated stuff.

Ignoring upcoming hybrids like the Transformer Book, the Pro is the only tablet that will be able to do power apps, because it has the same tech as a midrange laptop (Core i5, 4g ram, HD Graphics 4000) and breaks the app store tradition by letting you install desktop software on it. I'm not guaranteeing MS will succeed but if you're someone who wants the tablet to be more than just a portable internet device, you'll probably be watching how the Pro does in 2013
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 04:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jessica Lares View Post
Microsoft already tried Ultra Premium years ago and it failed. The Tablet PC didn't take off, and I don't think the Surface will either.
You could argue that the reason tablet PCs failed in the past wasn't because people didn't want them, rather they didn't want them as they were presented due to the technology of the time. Those old tablets were massive, fat bastards. Some of the larger ones were 2 inches thick, nearly 6-7 pounds, and lasted an hour and a half on a charge. That isn't something you'd want to hold in one hand or take out with you.

But now? We've got the RT which is a pound and a half and incredibly thin, and last about 9 hours before you have to recharge it. The Pro is only marginally larger and heavier (battery life is still a mystery though). They're much better tablets than the old tablet PCs were, and are likely to have more appeal because of that.

We'll see how much soon enough.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 05:26 PM   #28
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You could argue that the reason tablet PCs failed in the past wasn't because people didn't want them, rather they didn't want them as they were presented due to the technology of the time. Those old tablets were massive, fat bastards. Some of the larger ones were 2 inches thick, nearly 6-7 pounds, and lasted an hour and a half on a charge. That isn't something you'd want to hold in one hand or take out with you.

But now? We've got the RT which is a pound and a half and incredibly thin, and last about 9 hours before you have to recharge it. The Pro is only marginally larger and heavier (battery life is still a mystery though). They're much better tablets than the old tablet PCs were, and are likely to have more appeal because of that.

We'll see how much soon enough.
Except the Surface has terrible tablet ergonomics, read my opening post.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 05:56 PM   #29
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It's no worse than any other 16:9 tablet. It might not be quite as comfortable to hold as the iPad's 4:3 screen, but I wouldn't call it terrible, either.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 07:49 AM   #30
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Because it's not a tablet OS, it's a full version of Windows. Compare it to OS X or Ubuntu, not iOS.
I'll compare it to whatever I like. It is a tablet OS in that it is an OS on a tablet. One designed to compete with the iPad and Android tablets. It just does so at 12 GB more than the OS's it competes with. Like I said you just want to grade it on a curve.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:23 AM   #31
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That's because it is released at the wrong time, right after Nexus 7 and two new iPad. Who would buy Surface now?

Also how could I trust M$ hardware? I still own a M$ gamepad I bought ten years ago, but it never functioned well.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 09:48 AM   #32
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I find 10" tablets horrific in portrait mode no matter what the form factor. 7" tablets fit in your hand which is nice. My wife has a nexus 7, and for 200 bucks I am thinking about picking one up even though I have a 10" tablet already.

Windows 8 is great on the desktop, I am sure it will be fine on a tablet as well.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 11:07 AM   #33
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I'll compare it to whatever I like. It is a tablet OS in that it is an OS on a tablet. One designed to compete with the iPad and Android tablets. It just does so at 12 GB more than the OS's it competes with. Like I said you just want to grade it on a curve.
I don't know why. It's like racing a Ford Fiesta against a Ferrari and then complaining when the Ford doesn't win the race. No crap, you should compare like vehicles.

Likewise, compare Microsoft's scaled down OS, Windows Phone, against the iPad and you'll see that it only takes up around a gig or two, including Office and that's not taking into account the GB to Gib conversion.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:21 PM   #34
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I don't know why. It's like racing a Ford Fiesta against a Ferrari and then complaining when the Ford doesn't win the race. No crap, you should compare like vehicles.
That's ridiculous. It's not like that at all. It is comparing the OS of tablets in the exact same price range. Similar Size. Similar processors.

A 32 GB Surface has 12 GB less space available than a 32 GB iPad or Android tablet. That's significant.

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Likewise, compare Microsoft's scaled down OS, Windows Phone, against the iPad and you'll see that it only takes up around a gig or two, including Office and that's not taking into account the GB to Gib conversion.
I'm comparing tablet OS's. What Microsoft sells for a smartphone is irrelevant to the comparison.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:47 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by thejadedmonkey
ikewise, compare Microsoft's scaled down OS, Windows Phone, against the iPad and you'll see that it only takes up around a gig or two, including Office and that's not taking into account the GB to Gib conversion.
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
A 32 GB Surface has 12 GB less space available than a 32 GB iPad or Android tablet. That's significant.
I'm playing the middle, but my opinion leans slightly more towards BaldiMac than yours, Jaded.

On one hand, it is a more fully featured OS than the usual tablet/smartphone OSes, designed to support multiple pieces of hardware, and higher end software. It's very much Windows 8 Lite, and is bound to be bigger than the usual 1-2GB footprint you get from iOS and Android.

Oh the other hand, it's a little too large for a 32GB drive. Slapping in an SD card or thumbdrive only addresses part of the problem, since you can't run apps directly off either of them. You'll always be starved for space on the entry level Surface.

It could afford losing a couple of gigs off the install size.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:52 AM   #36
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That's ridiculous. It's not like that at all. It is comparing the OS of tablets in the exact same price range. Similar Size. Similar processors.
You do need to take account that iOS and Android are just blown up Phone OS's, Windows RT has FAR more features than either, iOS doesn't really hate any features, its just a grid layout of Applications, hell. It can't even Multitask.

----------

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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
You could argue that the reason tablet PCs failed in the past wasn't because people didn't want them, rather they didn't want them as they were presented due to the technology of the time. Those old tablets were massive, fat bastards. Some of the larger ones were 2 inches thick, nearly 6-7 pounds, and lasted an hour and a half on a charge. That isn't something you'd want to hold in one hand or take out with you.

.
Where are you getting 6-7lbs from? Maybe some of the REALLY huge ones were, and hour and half battery? Must be a bad tablet PC, the one I had back in 03 held a charge for almost 5 hours, and wasn't anywhere close to 7 pounds.

Back then, a tablet PC would run you a solid 2500 dollars to 3500 dollars for a good one, that was the biggest reason. People think the iPad is " expensive ", but it isn't at all. Most people literally couldn't afford one. Some of them are even more capable than lots of tablets today. ( Some of those bad boys had straight up P4s jammed em, toasty , I carried an HP Tablet PC for quite some time, it had 3GB ram, a Centrino Mobile Processor, and an discreete video card ( I think it was a GeForce FX or something in it, its nearly been a decade lol ), and a 120gb HDD, not bad for 2004.

They were also super niche at the time, they did fairly well in certain enterprise markets, and we carried them for quite some time, until software in my industry got to the point that I'm back to a 12 pound laptop out in the field.....

Biggest reason tho, your average consumer literally couldn't afford one.

For those of you who remember, a " crappy " desktop from a company like dell would still run you over 1000 dollars just for the tower at that point.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 01:08 AM   #37
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Point is Microsoft is 2.5 years late and even the Surface RT is not up to par. Only 5-point touch, too wide, touch cover is already proven to be flaky, problems with the stock apps, lag issues, worse battery life than iPad and so many other problems.

It's a joke.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 04:09 AM   #38
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Where are you getting 6-7lbs from? Maybe some of the REALLY huge ones were, and hour and half battery? Must be a bad tablet PC, the one I had back in 03 held a charge for almost 5 hours, and wasn't anywhere close to 7 pounds.

Back then, a tablet PC would run you a solid 2500 dollars to 3500 dollars for a good one, that was the biggest reason. People think the iPad is " expensive ", but it isn't at all. Most people literally couldn't afford one. Some of them are even more capable than lots of tablets today. ( Some of those bad boys had straight up P4s jammed em, toasty , I carried an HP Tablet PC for quite some time, it had 3GB ram, a Centrino Mobile Processor, and an discreete video card ( I think it was a GeForce FX or something in it, its nearly been a decade lol ), and a 120gb HDD, not bad for 2004.

They were also super niche at the time, they did fairly well in certain enterprise markets, and we carried them for quite some time, until software in my industry got to the point that I'm back to a 12 pound laptop out in the field.....

Biggest reason tho, your average consumer literally couldn't afford one.

For those of you who remember, a " crappy " desktop from a company like dell would still run you over 1000 dollars just for the tower at that point.
The 6-7 pounds thing was probably an overly agressive guesstimation on my part. I've only ever held 1 tablet PC in my day, and while I thought it was a cool idea (it's pretty much what started my love affair with tablets), it was too heavy and cumbersome to hold for too long, and the battery drained way too quickly for my taste.

Maybe if I got to play with some of the later tablet PCs, I'd be singing a slightly different tune. But...never saw one in person again after that.

----------

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Originally Posted by smoledman View Post
Point is Microsoft is 2.5 years late and even the Surface RT is not up to par. Only 5-point touch, too wide, touch cover is already proven to be flaky, problems with the stock apps, lag issues, worse battery life than iPad and so many other problems.

It's a joke.
Only 5 point touch? Other than a couple of little games here and there, how many times have you used more than 5 fingers on your iPad? 10 point touch is a nice thing to have (and I'm sure the Surface 2 will have it), but it's hardly a selling point.

And when has the Touch Cover proven to be flaky? Other than the "it looks stooopid MS is dumb" people, I've heard nothing but good things about it.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 04:24 AM   #39
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What makes no sense is making a thread for a product you never intended to buy and just bash without using it, reviews of the surface have been great specially for a rev.1 but in the end you gotta try things yourself with a open mind and stop trying to use other OS like ios.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 04:59 AM   #40
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I was curious about the surface RT but it seems like it was released before it was ready, like Vista. I think they just wanted something out there for the holiday shopping season and they will focus on refining the surface pro.

I can see the surface doing well if they can crack secure boot and throw Linux on that thing. Gnome shell and unity are almost tablet ready out of box. There's not too much they would have to do to the UI to turn it into a tablet OS and the RT into a usable device.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:01 AM   #41
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I was curious about the surface RT but it seems like it was released before it was ready, like Vista. I think they just wanted something out there for the holiday shopping season and they will focus on refining the surface pro.

I can see the surface doing well if they can crack secure boot and throw Linux on that thing. Gnome shell and unity are almost tablet ready out of box. There's not too much they would have to do to the UI to turn it into a tablet OS and the RT into a usable device.
Do you have exp. using a surface ?
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:06 AM   #42
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The device itself, no. The OS, yes.

10 minutes with windows 8 and I felt like I should have been put on a 24-hour psych watch.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:13 AM   #43
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The device itself, no. The OS, yes.

10 minutes with windows 8 and I felt like I should have been put on a 24-hour psych watch.
I guess you didnt like Windows 7 also ?

About the 10 minutes comment classic.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:14 AM   #44
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Windows 7 took time. I still hate how they laid out the networking stuff. I can use it, but I find Mac and Linux more intuitive.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 05:52 AM   #45
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If you're a Linux guy, the new start screen isn't that much different from Gnome Shell 3. Though less confusing, because you don't have to bring up the start screen to multitask. It's just an application/search launcher.

It's only when you start using Metro apps that things get weird.
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 08:43 AM   #46
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You do need to take account that iOS and Android are just blown up Phone OS's
No, I don't because that's just FUD. You can just as easily say iOS is a "blown down" version of OS X.

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Windows RT has FAR more features than either,
Maybe. But it currently has FAR less applications.

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iOS doesn't really hate any features, its just a grid layout of Applications, hell.
Do you really not know the difference between an OS and an application launcher or are you purposely spreading more misinformation?

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It can't even Multitask.
Only if you made up your own definition of the word "multitask".
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 09:25 AM   #47
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If you're a Linux guy, the new start screen isn't that much different from Gnome Shell 3. Though less confusing, because you don't have to bring up the start screen to multitask. It's just an application/search launcher.

It's only when you start using Metro apps that things get weird.
This. I have found Windows 8 pretty good to be honest. It'll suit both tablets, laptops and desktops just fine. Just don't use any Metro apps from the Store App if you're on a PC. It is a nice touch that the pre-bundled Apps can actually be deleted quite easily as well.

I'll be sticking with Windows 7 for now because it'll be in support for many years to come and is currently a solid OS, thus making an upgrade sorta pointless. But I have no issues with Windows 8 and look forward to using it on my machines in the future. Maybe when SP1 comes out I'll grab a copy.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 01:57 AM   #48
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I wonder if the Surface RT uses DirectX.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:53 AM   #49
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Why the Pro version of the Surface is a game changer

There are 3 tablet markets right now
1 - Premium market, dominated by the iPad
2 - Budget market, dominated by the Kindle, Nexus, and Nook
3 - Midrange market, which Apple is trying to create with the iPad Mini

The Surface Pro creates a 4th market that we can call Ultra Premium, higher end than anything that's currently in the tablet market. x86 CPU, 4 Gig RAM, full desktop OS and desktop sw compatibility

Why is that market needed?

Because there are a lot of power users out there who want the form factor of a tablet but also want to do things other than browse the web, watch movies, and play Angry Birds. They'd like streamlined enterprise integration plus the ability to run pro level software like Photoshop, MS Office, etc. You're never gonna get pro level apps on iOS/Android devices because they're budget markets.

If MS gets the functionality part of the Pro version right, it'll make the iPad look like an $500 toy
Correct it can actually replace a notebook.

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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
I'll compare it to whatever I like. It is a tablet OS in that it is an OS on a tablet. One designed to compete with the iPad and Android tablets. It just does so at 12 GB more than the OS's it competes with. Like I said you just want to grade it on a curve.
The pro is designed to compete with ultrabooks hence the x86 Arch.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 08:38 AM   #50
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Aaaaaaand ...

... that's why I wait for the Surface Pro, and then hackintosh it, ha!
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