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Old Apr 13, 2013, 07:58 PM   #1
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Is there a hack to get back aqua scroll bars in the lions?

I 've pretty much had it with the inane iphone scroll bars that I have to squint to locate where they are and drag them where I 'd like them to be.

Yeah I know I am not "scrolling it right", and I should scroll via the mouse/trackpad, but I like to just hold click on the scroll bar and drag it, and I really don't see what having a half the width it used to have scroll bar that's also greyed out almost indistinguishable from the background offer me in terms of ease of use in my daily workflow. Worst of all is trying to use the new scroll bars in horizontal scrolling in such programs as excel, jesus...that whole os x to look like ios thing has been such a trainwreck in my workflow.

(I sure hope they finish with ios 7 at some point so that they can get the people back to work on os x and that Ive restores some sense to it. Judging from the new itunes that he had a hand on, he seems to be in the right direction. Many more hits than misses there and changes for the better. Let's see, sometimes I feel like a second class citizen with my macs that cost a few times over what ios devices costs, having to wait for them to polish up the toys before working on the actual work machines that some of us make a living on, but I guess it could be worse, I could have been in the market for a mac pro for the last 4 years, I certainly don't envy the people who have.)

Anyway I wish someone's come up with a hack to get back the aqua scroll bars, although I doubt it. It would be such a treat if it could be done.
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Old Apr 13, 2013, 11:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macman34 View Post
I 've pretty much had it with the inane iphone scroll bars that I have to squint to locate where they are and drag them where I 'd like them to be.

Yeah I know I am not "scrolling it right", and I should scroll via the mouse/trackpad, but I like to just hold click on the scroll bar and drag it, and I really don't see what having a half the width it used to have scroll bar that's also greyed out almost indistinguishable from the background offer me in terms of ease of use in my daily workflow. Worst of all is trying to use the new scroll bars in horizontal scrolling in such programs as excel, jesus...that whole os x to look like ios thing has been such a trainwreck in my workflow.

(I sure hope they finish with ios 7 at some point so that they can get the people back to work on os x and that Ive restores some sense to it. Judging from the new itunes that he had a hand on, he seems to be in the right direction. Many more hits than misses there and changes for the better. Let's see, sometimes I feel like a second class citizen with my macs that cost a few times over what ios devices costs, having to wait for them to polish up the toys before working on the actual work machines that some of us make a living on, but I guess it could be worse, I could have been in the market for a mac pro for the last 4 years, I certainly don't envy the people who have.)

Anyway I wish someone's come up with a hack to get back the aqua scroll bars, although I doubt it. It would be such a treat if it could be done.
Go to System Preferences> General and select "Always Show Scroll Bars" It won't make the scroll bars blue again like in SL, but they will have the same behavior.

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Old Apr 14, 2013, 12:19 AM   #3
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Well I have them on, but they are barely useable as they are so small and grey.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 08:33 AM   #4
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Well I have them on, but they are barely useable as they are so small and grey.
They are bigger than the other grey ones (I think) and they get darker when you mouse over them.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 02:49 PM   #5
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Well I have them on, but they are barely useable as they are so small and grey.
I think you might need better glasses.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 03:07 PM   #6
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I wish. The new scrollbars are unusable garbage without arrow buttons.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 03:09 PM   #7
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I wish. The new scrollbars are unusable garbage without arrow buttons.
And trackpad or mouse scrolling doesn't work for you??
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 03:11 PM   #8
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I wish. The new scrollbars are unusable garbage without arrow buttons.
I hope that's a joke.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 03:15 PM   #9
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I hope that's a joke.
It's definitely not. Apple should be ashamed of this train wreck.

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And trackpad or mouse scrolling doesn't work for you??
That is uncomfortable. I use only the scrollbar.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 03:28 PM   #10
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I wish. The new scrollbars are unusable garbage without arrow buttons.
Exactly. We are not meant to use scrollbars anymore. It's apple saying, hey we don't think anyone needs scroll bars anymore, but since you are going after us if we take them out all together we'll give you the ones we have on the iphone (somehow the iphone has become the epitome of good design to forever borrow from...that's why they are overhauling it btw...) which will be half the size of the current ones, grey and hardly distinguishable, have a small area to click and drag, and no arrow buttons.

Any way, the thing is, if someone's hacked it to give give us a head up. Would be much appreciated.

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And trackpad or mouse scrolling doesn't work for you??
Trackpad and mouse scrolling can be a good alternative under certain usage scenarios and for some people who might prefer it. But they still don't solve something fundamental that the scroll bar does. The scroll bar gives you an indication of where you are in the document, and via click and drag to a certain other point you can go from position A to position B, and only at position B with precision. How are you to do this on a mouse or trackpad?

When I am scrolling horizontally on a spreadsheet I know that if I move the scrollbar from one position to another I am getting at a precise point on the spreadsheet. How am I to do this with the mouse or trackpad, provided I 've trained my response pretty well I can still only approximately go where I want, not exactly.

Scroll bars are there for a reason. Trackpads and mouse scrolling have always existed side by side to it. There's no reason to take one option out just because by virtue of it not having a mouse the iphone didn't have much use for scroll bars to begin with. This is just something that looks good on paper, "hey make it act like the iphone", looks good for marketing, "hey more design cues from our best seller", but it's just a poorly thought out interface choice. At the very least they should have updated the scrollbars to a sort of evolution of aqua as they did with the revamped blue buttons.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 04:14 PM   #11
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It's definitely not. Apple should be ashamed of this train wreck.
Could you elaborate on how the removal of a near useless feature makes the OS a "train wreck"?

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That is uncomfortable. I use only the scrollbar.
You should try some difference mice/track-pads. I find logitechs free spinning scroll wheel works very nicely for me.

If you insist on only using scroll bar there are still several ways to scroll very accurately.

You can change what clicking off of the scroll bar does either jump to mouse or move page by page
you can use the arrow keys on your keyboard to scroll just like the old arrows
you can hold option while dragging to get slower and smoothing dragging
you can drag normally
you can program extra mouse buttons to perform page up/down or smooth scrolling.

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We are not meant to use scrollbars anymore. It's apple saying, hey we don't think anyone needs scroll bars anymore, but since you are going after us if we take them out all together we'll give you the ones we have on the iphone which will be half the size of the current ones, grey and hardly distinguishable, have a small area to click and drag, and no arrow buttons.
Um I think the actual idea is that they want scroll bars to be less obtrusive. For someone like me with a 13" macbook who rarely touches the scroll bar I like the ability to have them hidden when I'm not scrolling for just that extra bit of screen realestate as well as smooth look.


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Trackpad and mouse scrolling can be a good alternative under certain usage scenarios and for some people who might prefer it. But they still don't solve something fundamental that the scroll bar does. The scroll bar gives you an indication of where you are in the document, and via click and drag to a certain other point you can go from position A to position B, and only at position B with precision. How are you to do this on a mouse or trackpad?

When I am scrolling horizontally on a spreadsheet I know that if I move the scrollbar from one position to another I am getting at a precise point on the spreadsheet. How am I to do this with the mouse or trackpad, provided I 've trained my response pretty well I can still only approximately go where I want, not exactly.

Scroll bars are there for a reason. Trackpads and mouse scrolling have always existed side by side to it. There's no reason to take one option out just because by virtue of it not having a mouse the iphone didn't have much use for scroll bars to begin with. This is just something that looks good on paper, "hey make it act like the iphone", looks good for marketing, "hey more design cues from our best seller", but it's just a poorly thought out interface choice. At the very least they should have updated the scrollbars to a sort of evolution of aqua as they did with the revamped blue buttons.
They didn't actually take out the scroll bars though and judging by the fact that this happened like 2 years ago I doubt the scroll arrows are coming back. I think this just one of those cases where you need to figure out a way to adapt to the new tech if you want to keep using it.

There are still ways to scroll precisely through a document/page so just mess around a bit and figure something out that works for you.

Last edited by SandboxGeneral; Apr 14, 2013 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Clean up of quoted text
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 05:17 PM   #12
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Exactly. We are not meant to use scrollbars anymore. It's apple saying, hey we don't think anyone needs scroll bars anymore,
Absolutely correct. There is no need to have a control on every window and move the pointer over to it and manipulate it in order to move what is displayed in that window, and then move the pointer back.

There are many other methods of scrolling without actually using the scroll bars, and these include methods for moving a set distance. There are usually other ways of navigating to a specific point too.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 05:37 PM   #13
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People actually used to click those arrows?



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It's definitely not. Apple should be ashamed of this train wreck.
Apple removed the scroll arrows and the whole OS sucks now. Wow.

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Old Apr 14, 2013, 06:11 PM   #14
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Absolutely correct. There is no need to have a control on every window and move the pointer over to it and manipulate it in order to move what is displayed in that window, and then move the pointer back.

There are many other methods of scrolling without actually using the scroll bars, and these include methods for moving a set distance. There are usually other ways of navigating to a specific point too.
Yeah there are many other methods, that's why you failed to mention one.... Listen man, scroll bars are there in the nixes, they are there in windows, and they are there in those other os'es for a reason. Either all the people developing and using the nixes and windows are collectively fools and they 've not realized how useless scroll bars are and they 've saddled their ui with something pointless, or, a bunch of overzealous bozos at apple in their zeal to make os x look like iphone decided that scroll bars where pointless and had to disappear or appear in a barely useable way. And in a typical apple world fashion they found some people to rationalize in favour of their misguided decision.

Now let me think about this dilemma, let's see about 90% of the users and developers in the word using linux and windows are morons, or a few people at apple messed up with the ui. Surely apple can't mess up right, apple didn't come up with the design for mountain lion's contancts and calendar, apple only accidentaly just reassign Jony Ive as head of ui design, not that there was anything the matter with it so far.... ok I made up my mind: 90% of the rest of the world that's perfectly happy with their scroll bars are idiots. They shouldn't be and we should take them away from them too because they are torturing themselves.
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Old Apr 14, 2013, 07:59 PM   #15
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Yeah there are many other methods, that's why you failed to mention one.... Listen man, scroll bars are there in the nixes, they are there in windows, and they are there in those other os'es for a reason. Either all the people developing and using the nixes and windows are collectively fools and they 've not realized how useless scroll bars are and they 've saddled their ui with something pointless, or, a bunch of overzealous bozos at apple in their zeal to make os x look like iphone decided that scroll bars where pointless and had to disappear or appear in a barely useable way. And in a typical apple world fashion they found some people to rationalize in favour of their misguided decision.

Now let me think about this dilemma, let's see about 90% of the users and developers in the word using linux and windows are morons, or a few people at apple messed up with the ui. Surely apple can't mess up right, apple didn't come up with the design for mountain lion's contancts and calendar, apple only accidentaly just reassign Jony Ive as head of ui design, not that there was anything the matter with it so far.... ok I made up my mind: 90% of the rest of the world that's perfectly happy with their scroll bars are idiots. They shouldn't be and we should take them away from them too because they are torturing themselves.

That argument was terrible. The reason they exist in Windows is because they never went away. The arrows were put there in a time where there was no other way to scroll and then simply remained there. In 2013 this isn't an issue anymore. Apple was just the first OS to realize how pointless they were.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 03:59 AM   #16
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Yeah there are many other methods, that's why you failed to mention one....
Because several had already been mentioned to you and many are self-evident.
If you would like me to list all the methods, I will.
First of all: you can still use scroll bars if you really must. They are still there, you can still grab the bar and move it, or click beside it to move a set amount.
However, the change in its appearance should signal to you Apple's direction and the fact that you need to find another method for future OS versions, which may change things further.
You can do two-finger scroll on a trackpad or use the scroll wheel on a mouse.
You can use the Page Up/Down and Home/End keys.
There is often a menu item or UI control to navigate to a particular page or location.

I'm not saying no scroll bars is better: I'm not saying it's worse. I'm saying "this is how it is, and this is the reason that Apple has done it". You can moan about as much as you like (https://www.apple.com/feedback/), or you can adapt and learn, and get on with your work.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 03:21 PM   #17
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Because several had already been mentioned to you and many are self-evident.
If you would like me to list all the methods, I will.
First of all: you can still use scroll bars if you really must. They are still there, you can still grab the bar and move it, or click beside it to move a set amount.
However, the change in its appearance should signal to you Apple's direction and the fact that you need to find another method for future OS versions, which may change things further.
You can do two-finger scroll on a trackpad or use the scroll wheel on a mouse.
You can use the Page Up/Down and Home/End keys.
There is often a menu item or UI control to navigate to a particular page or location.

I'm not saying no scroll bars is better: I'm not saying it's worse. I'm saying "this is how it is, and this is the reason that Apple has done it". You can moan about as much as you like (https://www.apple.com/feedback/), or you can adapt and learn, and get on with your work.
I 'd rather have my scroll bars back and useable please, and pronto. The same type of people were saying oh adapt and learn with lion, then apple did a huge backflip and offered choices to undo the "features" they had added with mountain lion. And more of the lion bs is about to be corrected with 10.9, starting of course with the train wreck that is the ui design of calendar and contacts. Take my word for it, they are going to stay the same only over Jony Ive's dead body. Hopefully scroll bars will be one of them.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 03:26 PM   #18
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First of all: you can still use scroll bars if you really must. They are still there, you can still grab the bar and move it, or click beside it to move a set amount.
The point is that without the arrow buttons some movements are now IMPOSSIBLE, restricting access to some items in the list.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 04:30 PM   #19
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The point is that without the arrow buttons some movements are now IMPOSSIBLE, restricting access to some items in the list.
I don't mean to be rude, but like what? The scroll arrows only move as much as the scroll bars

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I 'd rather have my scroll bars back and useable please, and pronto. The same type of people were saying oh adapt and learn with lion, then apple did a huge backflip and offered choices to undo the "features" they had added with mountain lion. And more of the lion bs is about to be corrected with 10.9, starting of course with the train wreck that is the ui design of calendar and contacts. Take my word for it, they are going to stay the same only over Jony Ive's dead body. Hopefully scroll bars will be one of them.
I disagree… I've been using OS X from 10.3 up, and I find the UI very well designed (it's definitely gotten better over the years ) and I like the way Apple designed the scrollbars… I can see just a little more content, and the scrollbars don't get in the way, and especially on the trackpad, the scrolling is very smooth and precise.

I do agree however that some of the eye candy/ skeuomorphism in some of Apple's apps aren't' needed, but I don't hate it… I guess that's just my opinion.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 04:41 PM   #20
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The point guys is, that if someone wants arrows and proper scroll bars in blue (maybe not aqua blue, but the current blue tone in os x) they should have them, because the evidence that scroll bars where are a thing of the past that has been superseded by better technology is at best very, very debatable. Since neither windows nor linux think they are apple has a lot to prove in that they are a thing of the past.

But let's be honest here, this has nothing to do with functionality. It's like so many of the stupid loans from ios, they have zilch to do with being really well thought out, well formed ui ideas. Does anyone think the new calendar and contacts where designed that way to make them more functional on os x? Does anyone think the save state ios loan has brought any major advantages to os x, instead of mainly nuisance? I don't see anyone raving about it.

It's the same with scroll bars, a poor, pointless ios loan. But sure on a phone you don't have a mouse to click on the scroll bar, nor do you have enough space to have anything but a miniscule scroll bar, so there's a point for them to look as they do on ios. But it's the same as with calendar or contacts, none of that logic apply to os x. What's even more ironic is that ios is in for a major design overhaul. If it was so great that even os x had to bend over and take the loans from it, why is it in the process of an overhaul?

Anyway, if there's anyone who can take the head of the os x ui team out of their behind, it's Jony Ive. I was really happy to see his work with itunes, the clean interface, the color back in the side bar. A few nuisances were there of course, but it wasn't the usual train wreck we 'd gotten used to lately from apple's ui choices. I am placing my hopes on him.

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I don't mean to be rude, but like what? The scroll arrows only move as much as the scroll bars

----------



I disagree… I've been using OS X from 10.3 up, and I find the UI very well designed (it's definitely gotten better over the years ) and I like the way Apple designed the scrollbars… I can see just a little more content, and the scrollbars don't get in the way, and especially on the trackpad, the scrolling is very smooth and precise.

I do agree however that some of the eye candy/ skeuomorphism in some of Apple's apps aren't' needed, but I don't hate it… I guess that's just my opinion.
All I am saying is that there should also be an option for full size blue colored scroll bars, some people do like them this way, and, what's more, find them very helpful in their workflow. It's just a tick in the option box. They don't have to be aqua even, they can just be the pale blue they use in the buttons.
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 05:16 PM   #21
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 05:21 PM   #22
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I 'd done so before and didn't find anything, but that looks promising:

http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/425...lear-interface

edit: well it looks with this piece of software, pretty impressive by the way at what it can do, I can skin the **** out of os x, but so far I don't think I can tweak scroll bars, maybe I 'll find the option if I dig into it some more, although I have already done a pretty thorough investigation.

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Old Apr 15, 2013, 05:51 PM   #23
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All I am saying is that there should also be an option for full size blue colored scroll bars, some people do like them this way, and, what's more, find them very helpful in their workflow. It's just a tick in the option box. They don't have to be aqua even, they can just be the pale blue they use in the buttons.
I guess I see your point, but can't you go back to Snow Leopard if it bothers you? (again, not trying to be rude)
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Old Apr 15, 2013, 06:10 PM   #24
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I guess I see your point, but can't you go back to Snow Leopard if it bothers you? (again, not trying to be rude)
Well, that's an option too I guess, snow leopard, the last great os x version, .

Not on my work computer though where I have to be on the latest os for app compatibility issues. I guess I am just holding out for 10.9, I hope 10.7-10.8 where just a bad parenthesis, and things start going for the better with .9
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Old Apr 16, 2013, 11:45 AM   #25
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I don't mean to be rude, but like what? The scroll arrows only move as much as the scroll bars
Like Mail. The arrow buttons would move by one thread. Without them, you pass over threads at the edge of the page.

You cannot click for a "page move" when the slider is near the top or bottom, and with the slider you overshoot massively.

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