Virtual PC 7 for Mac

[MacRumors]

Alongside Office 2004 announcements for the Mac, Microsoft also announced that Virtual PC Mac Version 7 will be arriving in the first half of 2004.

Customers can look forward to key enhancements over the current version 6.1, including performance and usability improvements, as well as compatibility with the Macintosh G5.

Earlier rumors had hinted at its announcement.

[Chealion]

Nice to see but details are very, very vague. You'd think they'd push it harder or something? They tried to wow us with the new features in Office 2004 (I wasn't impressed, as I have no use for those features.), but with VPC being part of Office you'd think they'd cover something.

[autrefois]

Great news!! I'll be first in line...er online!

[TMA]

I'm curious to see what Microsoft have done. 'key enhancements' they say. hmm. Microsoft Apps for Macs have never seemed very speedy to me, so I'm really skeptical that MS can do anything to further improve VPC speed-wise.

[wrldwzrd89]

I'm getting a G5 so I will NEED VPC7 (assuming I want to use Virtual PC, which I do). This is good news! I won't have a use for the Office bundle, at least not as far as I know... (I might get it if I can find a good reason to have Office)

<edit> TMA, you just got me curious... Will VPC7 be fast enough to be more usable than bad for those that are impatient? If not, I probably will NOT buy VPC. </edit>

[mkaake]

i'd really like to know more - i have a friend who knows very little about computers (60+years old, took the dive a few years ago), and while he uses a mac, he also uses virtual pc cause one of his investing sites requires the use of ie 6.0, as well as a few of his programs for investing. that said, he came to me about a week ago and asked what it would take to max out and upgrade his g4 350 (agp). that put me in a real hard place - he'd spend about 1100 upgrading that thing to what he's looking for (he wants much better performance in vpc), about 12 or 1300 for a new g4 (using my edu discount, possilby). a g5 would cost just a little more than that, have better performance and upgradeability (for ram, about the only thing he'd ever upgrade on the machine), but right now, they can't do what he needs, and there's no idea of how fast vpc will go when it *eventually* gets here.

bummer of a place to be. can't really give him any recomendation right now other than to wait...

matt

[RIP]

Needs the right tool for the job. In this case a PC. I would spend that money on a PC, rather than a Mac. Shoot me, but I am not that biased.

A question I have is if VPC7 would run slower on the same hardware as VPC6 if ran on a G4? I have no immediate plans to purchase a G5, as much as I would love to, however I also don't want to purchase an upgrade to VPC7 if there are features I like about it just to find that it slowed down because of the need to make it work on a G5 that does not support little endian.

Has anyone a clue about this?

Originally posted by mkaake
i'd really like to know more - i have a friend who knows very little about computers (60+years old, took the dive a few years ago), and while he uses a mac, he also uses virtual pc cause one of his investing sites requires the use of ie 6.0, as well as a few of his programs for investing. that said, he came to me about a week ago and asked what it would take to max out and upgrade his g4 350 (agp). that put me in a real hard place - he'd spend about 1100 upgrading that thing to what he's looking for (he wants much better performance in vpc), about 12 or 1300 for a new g4 (using my edu discount, possilby). a g5 would cost just a little more than that, have better performance and upgradeability (for ram, about the only thing he'd ever upgrade on the machine), but right now, they can't do what he needs, and there's no idea of how fast vpc will go when it *eventually* gets here.

bummer of a place to be. can't really give him any recomendation right now other than to wait...

matt

[squatch]

I wonder if Microsoft will do for VPC what they are doing for Office, by allowing you to upgrade to the newer version for free when it comes out if you buy the current version now. I have a B&W G3 that can run VPC 6.1 and really need it right now, but will be getting a (rumored) G5 iMac when they come out and would love to run VPC 7. Any rumors of this?

[Lancetx]

VPC 6.1 on a G4 is pretty much a dog, so I honestly hope that VPC 7 on a G4 (and certainly on a G5) will be a far better experience. It had better be anyway if M$ expects many people to pay the $129+ they'll be certain to charge for it.

[squatch]

Originally posted by RIP
Needs the right tool for the job. In this case a PC. I would spend that money on a PC, rather than a Mac. Shoot me, but I am not that biased.

I agree (as much as I hate to say it), but if he absolutely needs more speed for his Windows apps, build him a cheap PC. I just did for my dad who uses a lot of business software for around $250 (no monitor included). Check out NewEgg.com. They always have great deals and free shipping on most products.

[ethernet76]

Originally posted by mkaake
i'd really like to know more - i have a friend who knows very little about computers (60+years old, took the dive a few years ago), and while he uses a mac, he also uses virtual pc cause one of his investing sites requires the use of ie 6.0, as well as a few of his programs for investing. that said, he came to me about a week ago and asked what it would take to max out and upgrade his g4 350 (agp). that put me in a real hard place - he'd spend about 1100 upgrading that thing to what he's looking for (he wants much better performance in vpc), about 12 or 1300 for a new g4 (using my edu discount, possilby). a g5 would cost just a little more than that, have better performance and upgradeability (for ram, about the only thing he'd ever upgrade on the machine), but right now, they can't do what he needs, and there's no idea of how fast vpc will go when it *eventually* gets here.

bummer of a place to be. can't really give him any recomendation right now other than to wait...

matt

This is dumb, why doesn't he just get a PC? Why spend 1100 on upgrading performance when it wouldn't ever reach the performance of even a cheap PC?

[varmit]

Do we know if there has been some major speed improvements, or just a little bit of speed. It is going to be included with MS Office when it comes out right?

[andyduncan]

including performance and usability improvements

Usability improvements consist of the following:

The Virtual PC 7.0 application is now written in a single line of applescript:

tell application "Finder" activate

[tny]

Originally posted by RIP
Needs the right tool for the job. In this case a PC. I would spend that money on a PC, rather than a Mac. Shoot me, but I am not that biased.

Yeah, just get him to buy a cheap headless PC and run it through VNC. That should do it.

[swissmann]

VPC 6 runs on my dual 1 GHz G4 about like OS X.2 runs on my parents' iMac G3 400 MHz. I think to surf the web a bit, type some letters, do basic things it's OK. However when you run it on a fast Mac to get this OK performance you go from the speed you are used to to the equivalent of a much older slower system and it feels incredibly sluggish. If Virtual PC could increase it's current speed by 400% or so instead of the usual 20% or so I would think it a valuable app instead of something that some need to fall back on if there are no other options and don't want more hardware on their desk.

[lynnpye]

Originally posted by varmit
Do we know if there has been some major speed improvements, or just a little bit of speed. It is going to be included with MS Office when it comes out right?

From the article:

Consumers who pick up a copy of Office v. X for Mac any time from today until 30 days after the availability of Office 2004 for Mac can obtain the new product for free, plus shipping and handling. The promotion also provides inexpensive upgrades to the Office 2004 Professional Edition: $90 estimated reseller price (ERP) (U.S.)* from Office v. X Standard Edition and $129 ERP (U.S.)* from Office v. X Student and Teacher Edition (reseller prices may vary).

and:

-- Microsoft Office 2004 for Mac Professional Edition. This is the same
offering as Standard Edition, but also includes Microsoft Virtual PC
for Mac Version 7 with Windows(R) XP Professional.

So it appears that if you buy Office X now, you will be able to upgrade to Office 2004 Pro for $90-$129 depending on what version of Office X you are upgrading from. The free upgrade only brings you up to Office 2004 Standard.

[ZildjianKX]

Hell, who cares how bad VPC 7 is, just as long as its ANY faster than 6.1, and it works on G5s.

[grahamtriggs]

Originally posted by TMA
I'm curious to see what Microsoft have done. 'key enhancements' they say. hmm. Microsoft Apps for Macs have never seemed very speedy to me, so I'm really skeptical that MS can do anything to further improve VPC speed-wise.

I can't say I have a problem with the performance of the Microsoft Apps, and just because VPC comes out of the same BU doesn't mean it was coded by the same developers!!!

The claims seem a little wild, but then Connectix made good speed improvements over the years, so there is no reason why it can't be improved again.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that if they could be really clever about the big/little endian handling that it could account for it (switching to a little-endian mode may be quick for low development cost, but the context switching is going to have some penalty).

[Jetson]

I'd like to avoid Microsoft altogether on my Mac. I've tried to use Appleworks but sorry Apple - it's not ready for prime time.

WordPerfect was a great little word processing package, but it's also fallen by the wayside.

So it looks like it's the bloated, buggy, way overpriced Mac version of MS Office for me! What a world, what a world.

I hope that Microsoft has really made some great improvements and are not just shoving out more half-baked code for the Mac platform.

[Burrell]

I asked around and one guy said he is running the beta on his 2 ghz G5. He merely noted that the G5 version is somewhat faster than his dual G4 1.42 ghz.

Take it for what it is worth.

[Blackcat]

If the MSBU can make a DirectX 'driver' for the graphics card in the Mac VPC will go much faster and do 3D.

Connetix claimed this was impossible, but you're already simulating hardware which doesn't exist and using other real hardware with virtual drivers so I don't see why it can't be done.

[Marble]

If this is possible, why isn't there a Mac OS emulator for Windows? I am sure that someone would at least want to try, but those that have tried in the past have been unable to get the equivalent of a 1mhz PPC out of even a very fast (2ghz+) x86 rig.

[grahamtriggs]

Originally posted by Marble
If this is possible, why isn't there a Mac OS emulator for Windows? I am sure that someone would at least want to try, but those that have tried in the past have been unable to get the equivalent of a 1mhz PPC out of even a very fast (2ghz+) x86 rig.

There is a Mac OS emulator for Windows. In fact, there is more than one.

However, they only emulate the old Motorola chips, not the PPC's. PPC's are simply a big challenge for x86 boxes, thanks to the difference in architecture. PPC is RISC based. RISC machines get their speed from having few instructions but executing them very quickly. x86 is CISC based. More complex instructions that run slowly.

CISC is quite easy to emulate on RISC, because even breaking down the complex instructions, those instructions execute quickly, and so there isn't much loss in performance (beyond the process of chopping up / converting the instructions).

Emulating RISC on CISC means that you can't really take advantage of the complex instructions. So you simply can't take advantage of much of the power contained in a CISC chip. Which makes the whole thing very slow.

It's worth noting that many CISC chips nowadays are actually a CISC 'layer' that presents a CISC interface to the outside world for compatability (with older generations of the chip), but the actual execution cores are RISC, and the complex instructions are broken down for the RISC core to process.

NB: This is all a bit of a simplification, but you should get the overall idea.

[ipoddin]

Originally posted by mkaake
i'd really like to know more - i have a friend who knows very little about computers (60+years old, took the dive a few years ago), and while he uses a mac, he also uses virtual pc cause one of his investing sites requires the use of ie 6.0, as well as a few of his programs for investing. that said, he came to me about a week ago and asked what it would take to max out and upgrade his g4 350 (agp). that put me in a real hard place - he'd spend about 1100 upgrading that thing to what he's looking for (he wants much better performance in vpc), about 12 or 1300 for a new g4 (using my edu discount, possilby). a g5 would cost just a little more than that, have better performance and upgradeability (for ram, about the only thing he'd ever upgrade on the machine), but right now, they can't do what he needs, and there's no idea of how fast vpc will go when it *eventually* gets here.

bummer of a place to be. can't really give him any recomendation right now other than to wait...

matt

As others have said, just have him buy a cheap PC. Combine that with a KVM switch so he can use his existing monitor, keyboard, and mouse on both computers, and he's all set!

[KREX725]

Does this new VPC mean I can play Counterstrike on my Mac?

I'm shocked there wasn't one person asking that this time around.