Virtual PC 7 for Mac

[hulugu]

Dude...

ZeroKoolNess1 is wrong.

I mean first to state that you work at the "best" of anything smacks of arrogance, but then to suggest that a user get a computer just to conform. A computer is a tool, like a pen only ridiculously more complicated, and therefore should be suited to the.....ready drum roll.....User!

And not the administrators. The Personal Computer is just that and while I understand that in cases of corporations it makes sense to buy a single series of units from the same company because it makes the logistical chain easier, but in the case of students (and other examples too numerous to mention) they should have a choice. If a student is willing to use a different machine be it an Acer tablet running Red Hat, or a PB running OSX.3 it should be up to admin to help as much as possible.
Obviously there's a balance to be struck, but too many administrators think and act as if its the user's responsibility to make the sysadmins' life easier; it's the other way around.
Besides, it's not like a Macintosh uses Cyrillic serial number or Kanji MAC addresses, it's a computer just a better one.

By the way vniow the debug feature is very cool, I just went to two sites that required IE for Windows, and guess what, they work. Ha!

If anyone is interested, close Safari, open Terminal and type:

defaults write com.apple.safari IncludeDebugMenu 1

to get rid of the Debug Menu type:

defaults write com.apple.safari IncludeDebugMenu 0

<edit for non-sensical grammar, plus I added the nod to vniow for the debug and added the Terminal commands>

 

[mkaake]

Re: Sounds like he

Originally posted by RIP
Needs the right tool for the job. In this case a PC. I would spend that money on a PC, rather than a Mac. Shoot me, but I am not that biased.

<snip>

sorry, but it's not about a bias. it's about a guy who is almost completely computer illiterate using a computer that works for him all of the time so that he doesn't have to spend his time figuring out how to configure it or figure out what's wrong (which actually means he calls me, and since i now live almost two hours away, he needs a system that works).

sorry, but a pc is exactally what he doesn't need...

matt

 

[mkaake]

Re: Re: Sounds like he needs a PC

Originally posted by squatch
I agree (as much as I hate to say it), but if he absolutely needs more speed for his Windows apps, build him a cheap PC. I just did for my dad who uses a lot of business software for around $250 (no monitor included). Check out NewEgg.com. They always have great deals and free shipping on most products.

well aware - read above post. anyhew, for those that want a pc, i'll build a pc - point in case - about 6 months ago, between newegg.com and ebuyer.com, i build my grandpa this computer for 610 (including tax and shipping)

2.53 p4
80 gig ibm hd
512 megs kingston ddr (333)
asus p4pe mobo (fully supports 333 ddr and 533 fsb)
new dvd rom drive
ati radeon 8500 le (128)
and we re-used his cdrw (42x24x42, $20) from his old computer.

it's a speedly little machine, and not bad for what he paid. now if only I could get them to run their 17 inch higher than 800x600, we'd be set...

matt

 

[mkaake]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
Not sure if I'd have him buy a cheap PC just to use a few business apps...

If he really enjoys his mac then mabye asking him to wait for an hardware upgrade and explain that a new VPC will soon be available..Then he could add the money he's willing to spend and sell his old mac or better yet, donate it to a local school. Then he can get improved performance and still be on a Mac without having two computers hogging space.. He doesn't need a dedicated PC for browsing investment websites. Soon as he gets the PC he'll have to worry about security and other aspects, which the Mac can do reasonably well. However, others here disagree..

I'm waiting for the G5 and VPC for the G5.. When that happens, I"ll ditch my PC and donate my Mac to a school.

that's almost exactally what i did, other than i recommended he donate his 350 g4 to me (i'm running a beige g3 at 266 right now, no agp...)

matt

(oh and for those of you wondering, i plan on donating my beige if he 'dontates' his computer to me...

matt

 

[RIP]

Re: Re: Sounds like he

I think you are correct. I looked around on the web after deciding not to take MS's word for it and the conclusion I came up with is that the 970 does in fact support little endian (Macintosh uses big endian) however the way it is enabled on the cpu must be different than the CPU's VPC supported hence the reason it didn't work all the sudden on the G5.

They have since tweaked the software to enable little endian by the method required for whatever CPU it's running on, and suddenlty they have a 7.0 release of VPC.

It's just like MS to use something like this to market a completly revamped product which will most likely be nothing more than a point release underneath.

I am however confident that it won't be any slower on my Mac that 6.1 is currenty. It may be dog slow, but its worlds faster than version 5 was.

Originally posted by MtDewaholic
As far as I can tell, Microsoft is flat out lying about this. The PowerPC 970 does in fact support little endian mode. EVERY PowerPC chip ever produced supports little endian mode. Being able to set the endianness of the processor is part of the defining qualities of the PowerPC architecture.

Every PowerPC has an MSR register. The LE bit in the MSR is used to set the endianness of the processor. This bit is not optional like some of the other bits in the MSR. You can read all you want about it in "PowerPC Microprocessor Family: Programming Environments Manual for 64 and 32-bit Microprocessors" http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/F6153E213FDD912E87256D49006C6541 Notice that this manual doesn't reference any specific processor, because it is for all processors.

Here is all of the documentation I can find about the 970 at IBM's site. http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_970_Microprocessor I challenge anyone to find any technote saying that the PowerPC 970 doesn't support little endian mode. Not supporting this bit in the MSR for this one processor would be a big deal and it would absolutely be well documented if IBM redefined the PowerPC architecture for this one processor.

 

[RIP]

Re: Re: Sounds like he

Ok, but he is running VPC. How is that any different other than it is much slower than a real one? I mean, if all you are worried about is the complications of troublshooting a PC, you still have the same problems in emulation.

You know, I used to have a 100Mhz PC on a PCI card made by Apple that sat in my Umax box. I loved that setup. I would gladly pay 400 bucks, maybe 500, for something that worked like that now. I have the need for a PC, I just don't want another box in my office. I like the fact that I can have MacOS and Windows on my screen at the same time. Actually, I have two monitors and when I run VPC, Windows is full screen on one while the Mac is full screen on the other. It's nice.

Anyhow, what ever happened to Orange Micro and the others? I think there is still a market for this type of thing. After all, I would buy one in a heartbeat and eveyone knows I constitute a "market".

Originally posted by mkaake
sorry, but it's not about a bias. it's about a guy who is almost completely computer illiterate using a computer that works for him all of the time so that he doesn't have to spend his time figuring out how to configure it or figure out what's wrong (which actually means he calls me, and since i now live almost two hours away, he needs a system that works).

sorry, but a pc is exactally what he doesn't need...

matt

 

[mkaake]

Re: Re: Re: Sounds like he

Originally posted by RIP
Ok, but he is running VPC. How is that any different other than it is much slower than a real one? I mean, if all you are worried about is the complications of troublshooting a PC, you still have the same problems in emulation.

You know, I used to have a 100Mhz PC on a PCI card made by Apple that sat in my Umax box. I loved that setup. I would gladly pay 400 bucks, maybe 500, for something that worked like that now. I have the need for a PC, I just don't want another box in my office. I like the fact that I can have MacOS and Windows on my screen at the same time. Actually, I have two monitors and when I run VPC, Windows is full screen on one while the Mac is full screen on the other. It's nice.

Anyhow, what ever happened to Orange Micro and the others? I think there is still a market for this type of thing. After all, I would buy one in a heartbeat and eveyone knows I constitute a "market".

not too much difference in trouble shooting, but if he's using the mac, then he's only using vpc when he absolutely needs to, instead of it being his primary work environment. you guys are really over estimating how often he uses this - i mean, he fires it up prolly two times a week. to me, that's not enough to justify a switch to pc land - it's the perfect candidate for vpc.

as with orange micro, those things did rock, and it's a shame that they don't make them anymore...

matt

 

[jpd]

Webcam and VPC

Does anyone know whether or not Virtual PC works with PC USB webcams and Yahoo video/audio messenger? If so, I'm definitely getting VPC7 so that I can video chat with my PC-centric family (hey, you can't choose your relatives). Thanks.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Good news

This is good news even if its very little.

I remember the disussions about M$ purposes when the aquired C. few months ago. Now its clear that they are still developing VPC. Hope its quite fast on my iMac G5

 

[manu chao]

Whether you have less PC related problems with a real PC or VPC ....

In principle you have the same trouble with VPC as with a real PC, but you will likely only run a few programs on Windows, and Windows will not run all the time, which reduces the chances of something going wrong with your WinOS markedly.
Admittedly, if you get an extra PC just for a few apps, you won't use a lot either.

But, if your VPC WinOS runs into trouble, it is very easy to replace it with a back-up image (a one-step back-up is even build into VPC). With a real PC a bootable back-up image should also be possible but I have the slight feeling it won't be as easy as clicking 'Discard changes made the the VPC image'.

 

[KingOfPain]

Virtual PC and Direct3D with special driver

First of all, I think it's good to know that Microsoft really continue VPC and didn't just let it die (like Sony buying Virtual Gamestation from Connectix just to get rid of it).
I hope it'll help me that I don't have to boot my old PC just to run some simple tool or something like that. And because I have a G5 I certainly need the newest version of VPC.

Now onto the subject of the possibility of DirectX, or more precisely Direct3D, with a PC emulator...
I think it's possible, and here is why:

I have a so-called PC-card, basically an addon card with a x86 processor, for my Acorn RiscPC, which is driven by some software which also emulates the remaining hardware.
The emulation only simulates VGA, so Win9x normally only runs in 640x480 with 16 colours.
But Acorn wrote a special driver for Windows, and installing that driver enables you to select much higher resolutions and colour depths in Windows.
You don't get 3D acceleration that way, but that's mainly due to the fact that the RiscPC doesn't have any 3D hardware, and that such a driver wouldn't be that trivial, but theoretically it should be possible.

Someone (sorry, I forgot who it was) wrote in this thread that such a driver wouldn't help increase the normal speed because it doesn't use DirectX and because VPC only emulates a 4MB video chipset.
That's basically true, but you only need the video hardware emulation until the special video driver is loaded; when that is done you can completely bypass the hardware emulation because the emulator and the operating system are communicating through the driver. With this trick you get faster graphics even with simple 2D stuff, as I noticed with the Acorn PC-card.
Since applications (even games) aren't allowed to directly access the hardware in a protected mode operating system anyway, they'll be using the driver as well.

I hope we can agree on the fact that the graphics emulation can be sped up by using a special driver which is basically just a means to bypass the video emulation.
I gets a bit more tricky when 3D is involved, of course...

I'm neither a 3D nor a graphics driver specialist, but I think that a driver that behaves is if a 3D chipset is behind it would be much easier to realise than emulating the hardware of a 3D accelerator.
It should basically boil down to working with display lists that are sent to the driver. The main problem should be to transform that D3D stuff to OpenGL, but even that shouldn't be impossible. And once that is done, MacOS X should be able to render the 3D graphics in a window or fullscreen.

What I'm saying is:

a) 2D accerleration via a driver that runs on the emulated system has been done before, so it's certainly possible.

b) 3D acceleration via a driver will be hard, but I don't think it's impossible.

c) Microsoft should be able to write such a driver for Windows.

The question is if Microsoft want to put that much effort into it, but in my opinion it should be possible.

 

[RIP]

Orange Micro

I just emailed Orange Micro and begged them to bring back the OrangePC PCI card. Maybe some of you can do the same, spread the word and maybe there could be enough demand to create the spark.

Just look at the specs of some of the discontinued producs. I would take one of those right now if there were support for OSX.

http://www.orangemicro.com/productarchive.html

 

[wookitus]

VPC and Law Exams

I know that VPC is not permitted on most law campuses for exams. The software most of the law schools use forces you to boot the computer using their disk and the reason for that is to prevent you from cheating and entering your hard disk to access data. Even if VPC could boot this software, no law school admin would let you because you could easily switch into another document from VPC. I take it creating a mac client for this software would be quite a task.

 

[Larshart]

Dialup or Broadband?

Originally posted by mkaake
i'd really like to know more - i have a friend who knows very little about computers (60+years old, ...

matt

Has he invested in a broadband connection? This would be the first place to Upgrade.

 

[oingoboingo]

Originally posted by grahamtriggs
There is a Mac OS emulator for Windows. In fact, there is more than one.

However, they only emulate the old Motorola chips, not the PPC's. PPC's are simply a big challenge for x86 boxes, thanks to the difference in architecture. PPC is RISC based. RISC machines get their speed from having few instructions but executing them very quickly. x86 is CISC based. More complex instructions that run slowly.

I thought the issue was more to do with re-creating compatibility with Apple's low level BIOS and firmware environment (which is heavily copyrighted and protected) rather than problems with x86 chips emulating the PowerPC.

 

[Grimace]

Beck446 - get a clue, NU is not rated the best:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/mba/brief/mbarank_brief.php

Harvard has Apple and IBM as their main computer providers - and students/faculty get discounts on both.

There is nothing about an Apple computer that wouldn't work equal to or better than a PC here - I dunno what you're talking about.

 

[grahamtriggs]

Originally posted by oingoboingo
I thought the issue was more to do with re-creating compatibility with Apple's low level BIOS and firmware environment (which is heavily copyrighted and protected) rather than problems with x86 chips emulating the PowerPC.

Not at all... there would be no emulator for 68K / pre OS 9 Macs if this was the case.

The BIOS / firmware can be dumped, and there is nothing to stop an emulator from loading that data.

Copyright protection just means that the emulator can't be distributed with the BIOS files. (Nor can the BIOS files themselves be distributed at all).

 

[billyboy]

Re: Re: VNC

Originally posted by Sherlock
Or if the PC he has is running Windows XP he can use the Microsoft Remote Desktop Client:

http://www.microsoft.com/mac/otherproducts/otherproducts.aspx?pid=remotedesktopclient

Just to reiterate this post seeing as noone seems to be seeing beyond VPC. Go to versiontracker take a look at what plenty of users seem to see as the obvious answer to having to deal with a few Windows only apps.

"eg Brilliant!
Got to give it to Microsoft - this is a brilliant application. SO much better than Virtual PC. If you need to run PC apps - don't buy VPC - just get hold of a cheap 2nd hand PC with XP Pro, install RDC on your Mac & away you go! Easily worth 5 stars, & that's before you find out the price!"

 

[Grimace]

that looks great - thanks for posting! Two questions:

1. The PC computer has to be on your same home network for you to make the connection - right?

2. The downside is you can't take the PC programs with you to a conference etc. because they aren't actually on your computer - right?

 

[wrldwzrd89]

Originally posted by carletonmusic
that looks great - thanks for posting! Two questions:

1. The PC computer has to be on your same home network for you to make the connection - right?

2. The downside is you can't take the PC programs with you to a conference etc. because they aren't actually on your computer - right?

1. That APPEARS to be the case - however, the Microsoft page for RDC is unclear about this.

2. Yes, this is true.

 

[grahamtriggs]

Originally posted by wrldwzrd89
1. That APPEARS to be the case - however, the Microsoft page for RDC is unclear about this.

2. Yes, this is true.

1. As long as you can make a TCP/IP connection to the machine, and the port(s) used by RDC / TS are not blocked (ie. by a firewall), then you can connect to a machine anywhere.

2. Yes, although if you can get to the machine via the internet... although that may create security implications.

Note that RDC takes significant amounts of bandwidth. Quite practical for local networks, or connecting to the office. Less practical when you are trying to connect to a machine at home (whilst elsewhere), when you may have limited upload bandwidth and/or low bandwidth at your location.

 

[Mord]

Originally posted by Jetson
I'd like to avoid Microsoft altogether on my Mac. I've tried to use Appleworks but sorry Apple - it's not ready for prime time.

WordPerfect was a great little word processing package, but it's also fallen by the wayside.

So it looks like it's the bloated, buggy, way overpriced Mac version of MS Office for me! What a world, what a world.

I hope that Microsoft has really made some great improvements and are not just shoving out more half-baked code for the Mac platform.

dont just run to microsoft: open office

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/unix_open_source/

apple and microsoft arn't the only software developers in the world