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malexandria

Suspended
Mar 25, 2009
971
427
15 Inch Air

A 15 inch Air could convince me to get rid of my Mac Pro. And I wouldn't mind a 24 inch display. I had a 27 iMac and didn't like it much - for numerous reasons including 27 was just too big. I don't trust Apple to Update the iMac I'm sure it'll be super thin and have no CD.
 

Manic Mouse

macrumors 6502a
Jul 12, 2006
943
0
Hello deconstruct,

1) The GPU is a complete non-issue. The HD4000 is 2.5x more powerful than the "discrete" GPU in my 2009 Mac Mini that is quite capable of running large displays (2560x1600 + 1920x1200) simultaneously. The obsession on these forums about a discrete GPU can only be explained by obsessing around the concept of a discrete GPU without any relation to actual performance numbers. Read up on the sudden disappearance of the Retina "lag issue" in the latest release of ML, while you're at it.

2) With the Retina macbooks being 1.8cm thick and 2.5" SSDs being about 1cm, it'll be hard to fit one in.

There are alternatives, true. But that's not the road that Apple seems to be taking.

Actually a dedicated GPU is an issue for a couple of reasons.

Firstly: while the HD4000 is indeed capable of driving retina resolutions for standard activities (like web browsing) it will fall flat on it's face trying to run any kind of 3D application (games, or professional applications like autoCAD etc) at such a resolution. And since games feature so prominently in Apple's strategy now (just have a look at the Mac App Store) you would have a lot of miffed customers who are buying a "pro" laptop that can't run games (or professional applications) at it's native resolution.

Secondly: the Macbook Pro is exactly that, a "pro" machine. It needs to have at least some kind of benefit over an Air. At the moment that is the bigger HDD and optical drive - both of which disappear when you go retina. The MBA may remain non-retina for a while but Apple will most certainly move it to a retina display once it becomes standard in all laptops - at which point there is basically no reason to get a 13" pro over one without a dedicated GPU - the only difference between a 13" MBP and a 13" MBA will be a marginal difference in CPU speed.

Thirdly: Apple have made no secret of the fact that they are unhappy with the graphics capabilities of Intel's integrated graphics and a GPU can be used for many things in OSX (core animation, openCL etc). Given the option Apple would clearly rather use a dedicated GPU, but up until now there hasn't been much room for one (trust me - I opened my 13" MBP up to replace the optical drive with an SSD).

You say there isn't much room for one but there is. Eliminating the optical drive and using their custom SSD boards (which is what they do in the 15" rMBP) rather than an SSD in a 2.5" HDD enclosure will free MASSES of room inside the 13" MBP, in fact it will more than double the available area for components. Again trust me, I've rooted about inside my MBP - the optical drive and hard drive take up more room than the entire motherboard. Heck the optical drive alone takes up nearly 25% of the internal space.

EDIT: here's a picture of the current 13"MBP internals. Now remove the HDD and optical drive. Pretty sure there's room for a GPU *and* bigger battery:
FkpKKrqQlYsgNBq6.large
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,298
3,893
I was thinking of the whole MBA range as an experiment, actually. Not just the first version. Experiment as in: if we minimize size, making compromises on user upgradability, would it still sell ? The answer is clearly: yes, it sells quite well.

That's largely not an experiment Apple is engaging in. One, experiments have end targets. The above alludes to an continuously ongoing process. An evolutionary development cycle is not an experiment.

Two the product category the MBA fits into existed before the MBA.

That is overall market forces and the response. Yes the "minimal" sells quite well. Apple just announced they sold more iPads last quarter than they will sell Macs all year. Apple already has a "solution" for the "draconian minimal" personal computer.

The "minimal" issue is a problem if really want to take on iPad level restrictions and compete head-to-head. That's a dubious move.


I don't know how much % of MBA sales are 11" vs 13", but I'm guessing the 13" sales are double the 11" because most people prefer the real estate.

that is an exceedingly dubious assumption since most buyers are constrained on price.

One, the average laptop personal computer selling price is far below the minimal Mac laptop price. The large majority of those coming to the Mac are price sensitive. Even those in the Mac market already are not price elastic.

Two, the lowly ( only one base config sold) MacBook would typically outsell all other Mac products except for the aggregated MBP 13/15/17 sales. The MBA which actually had two configs (variations on processor speed and RAM ) sold last, far behind the MacBook. Same size screen only the MacBook was several hundred dollars cheapers. This result is highly correlated with pretty firmly established economic principles that demand tends to go up as prices go down.


Magically when Apple killed the Macbook and coupled a $999 MBA 11" to the MBA aggregation it shot up to being a significant product volume sellers.

Your hypothesis seems to be that because there was now a 11" MBA more people found the 13" MBA more valuable. My hypothesis is that more people found the 11" MBA a better value.

You inference from that may be that the MBA 13" is sells 2:1 to the 11". Mine is the opposite (if not more. Probably more like 11" : 13" is more like 4:1 . It will get better now that the 13"'s price has come down some. But the price that is doing that. Not the screen size. )


But that's, of course, just a guess based mainly on forum input (and we all know how representative we are :D).

The parenthetical comment is correct. This forum is probably the worst place on the planet to do unbiased statistical sampling from. If basing your assumptions on that kind of data and observation then we're just going to be in fundamental disagreement about even what "experiment" means. Warping flawed data is not an experiment.


1) The GPU is a complete non-issue. The HD4000 is 2.5x more powerful than the "discrete" GPU in my 2009 Mac Mini that is quite capable of running large displays (2560x1600 + 1920x1200) simultaneously.

Not sure which alternative universe you are typing from. There were no Mac Mini 2009 models with discrete graphics. If you think that the Nvidia 9400M is discrete graphics you are deeply mistaken. To even imply it with quotation marks is dubious. It is integrated graphics plain and simple.

The issue isn't 2D pixel filling. It is a 3D graphics issue. Going forward it is an OpenCL and 3D graphics issue. The OpenCL of the HD4000 is weak relative to the current mobile discrete offerings. While the HD4000 3D graphics performance is marginally "good enough", a surefire way of making it worse is increase the number of pixels being manipulated. The frame rates fall substantially as number of pixels double.

If you are implying that I'm in some "Intel graphics are horrible camp just because they are integrated" then that is offbase. HD4000 graphics are largely good enough for most folks in mainstream contexts.


Read up on the sudden disappearance of the Retina "lag issue" in the latest release of ML, while you're at it.

The lag on Mission Control / Launch Pad animation? If so the OS disco effects aren't the core issue.


2) With the Retina macbooks being 1.8cm thick and 2.5" SSDs being about 1cm, it'll be hard to fit one in.

I was talking about the current MBP 13" form factor. There are trade-offs Apple could make to bring the SSD standard to it also if willing to shrink user storage sizes with higher $/GB.

The MBP 13" HDD + ODD component costs are probably higher than the smallest mSATA derivative Apple puts into the thinner models. Pull both from the MBP 13" and insert one of mSATA drives and the MBP 13" entry model price would be lower than the MBA 13" and a faster box. [There is an agenda that won't let that happen right now. ]

Assuming the derivative 13" also targets the 15" retina's target thickness, that is a MBA thickness.... so of course only the mSATA derivative fits. However, as I expressed before, that also means the new retina model is targeting the MBA 13" more than the MBP 13".


I'll tell my mom and dad next time they complain about the speed of their computers. I think this statement is mainly indicative of the fact that you are computer literate.

It isn't computer literacy as much as having done it multiple times.

The car maintenance analogy would be changing oil. Owners could do it themselves ( putting aside ecologically safely disposing of the old oil. ), but most don't. The ones that do it all the time typically bristle when folks imply it is some "highly trained mechanic with sophisticated tools" job.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,298
3,893
EDIT: here's a picture of the current 13"MBP internals. Now remove the HDD and optical drive. Pretty sure there's room for a GPU *and* bigger battery:Image

There isn't if you remove the SO-DIMMs also. Going to soldered RAM actually occupies substantially more horizontal board space. That will deeply eat into the space the ODD and HDD just vacated.

The other issue is that the GPU and VRAM will also eat more power so any increased battery volume may be flitted away would the additional electronics.

If Apple kept the modified version the same thickness it can work. If Apple throw a substantial fraction of the classic MBP 13" case volume overboard by shrinking the high significantly then removing the ODD (or HDD) is more of a zero sum game. They threw away around as much as got "saved".

In the PowerBook era, the PB 12" was thicker than the 15". The current MBP 13" is only thick relative to the MBA 13". Not sure Apple will take that option, but it is possible. Over time the MBP and MBA would swap price positions. The MBA the old MBP 13" position and the MBP 13" the old MBA 13" positions. This period where they are the same would have just been a temporary transition point.

If Apple's primary target is the MBA 13" with the retina version then the GPU will probably loose out to the updated screen in terms of extra battery capacity allocated.

If overall laptop person computer market average prices continue to fall long term, Apple will probably move to just three models and all this "Air" versus "pro" will fade away.
 

belltree

macrumors 6502
Feb 17, 2008
395
60
Tokyo, Japan
I was talking about updating internals to address the heat issue. Apple rarely -if ever- update a product midcycle with 'new internals', they usually preserve the goodies for the next generation.

I was only speaking of a die shrink regarding the A5X processor nothing more.
 

SG457

macrumors newbie
Jun 24, 2012
21
0
If the new iMac has...
1. 1TB HDD (256GB SSD Optional)
2. Ivy Bridge i7
3. Keep SuperDrive in iMac
4. Better graphic card
5. USB 3.0
6. iWork '12
then it will be a perfect iMac (for me :))

*How about a Retina iMac? :cool:
**Expectations too high? (maybe? :p)
 

PeterJP

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2012
1,136
896
Leuven, Belgium
Hi,

Actually a dedicated GPU is an issue for a couple of reasons.

One of my pet peeves has usually been that most professionals don't work in industries that require 3D graphics. Indeed, at my most recent job, the two mac users used it for Word and PowerPoint.

But your points are good: if you get an expensive pro machine and it plays games just as badly as an Air, it's silly and it won't do. For the 13" MBP, this was the way that Apple did choose to do it. Now with a retina display, chances are that there will be a GPU. Don't get me wrong: I really wouldn't mind getting a good GPU included in the price. I do, however, think that for most people, it will just mean less battery time. I expect most users won't use the GPU for what it is meant and they won't install gfxCardStatus to disable it. Sad, but after seeing lots of non techies, I don't have confidence in the average capacities of computer users.

Secondly: the Macbook Pro is exactly that, a "pro" machine. It needs to have at least some kind of benefit over an Air.

CPU speed (as you mentioned), the capability to have more memory and SSD (16/768 max instead of 8/512). And the Retina display. About the latter: I'm excited about the way rendering is done for non-native resolutions because it allows me to work in Word with 2 pages side by side while still reducing the UI elements in size, without too much artefacts. So I consider that to be a pro feature.

But you are certainly right: now the Airs come in 8/512 configs, the step up to the pro is mainly the screen and (for the 15" rMBP) the GPU.


That is overall market forces and the response. Yes the "minimal" sells quite well. Apple just announced they sold more iPads last quarter than they will sell Macs all year. Apple already has a "solution" for the "draconian minimal" personal computer.

All I can say after a paragraph like that is that 1) I don't consider a 13" rMBP without a discrete GPU to be minimalist (though look at my answers above to see that I do see the advantages) and 2) you seem to disagree. We will see in a few months' time what Apple thinks.


Two, the lowly ( only one base config sold) MacBook would typically outsell all other Mac products except for the aggregated MBP 13/15/17 sales. The MBA which actually had two configs (variations on processor speed and RAM ) sold last, far behind the MacBook.(...)Magically when Apple killed the Macbook and coupled a $999 MBA 11" to the MBA aggregation it shot up to being a significant product volume sellers.

Your numbers seem to be more accurate than mine. Mind sharing the source ?

You inference from that may be that the MBA 13" is sells 2:1 to the 11". Mine is the opposite (if not more. Probably more like 11" : 13" is more like 4:1 . It will get better now that the 13"'s price has come down some. But the price that is doing that. Not the screen size. )

Yes, I think the 13" is selling more. It's the impression I have. The 13" looks more like a standard laptop which I think can be a deciding factor ("I like the 11 but the screen is so small...")



Not sure which alternative universe you are typing from. There were no Mac Mini 2009 models with discrete graphics. If you think that the Nvidia 9400M is discrete graphics you are deeply mistaken. To even imply it with quotation marks is dubious. It is integrated graphics plain and simple.

Thanks for pointing that out. I looked it up and I found out I was wrong.


It isn't computer literacy as much as having done it multiple times. (...) The car maintenance analogy would be changing oil. Owners could do it themselves , but most don't.

Exactly.


Peter.
 

SurferMan

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,267
51
South FL
Hopefully the 13" rMBP does come out and Apple has fixed the issues the 15" rMBP had and that I experienced but people said the new updates with ML have pretty much sorted it out. I'd get one to replace the 13" Pro which I was thinking of replacing with a new Air, but a 13" Pro that's thinner with the retina screen would be great as I travel a lot. 15" is too clumsy to use traveling on planes etc.
 

oldmetalhead

macrumors newbie
Jul 29, 2012
2
0
Wait?

O.K., it's true, I really have a 10 year old iMac G4 and everything still works! ...... Very slowly ;) So, I was looking forward to updating to a maxed out, new Imac in hopes of having another long run. Sadly, it will have to be the 21.5 inch one, because the wife absolutely hates the big one. ("Why do you need to see your email as big as a t.v.?") Then my brother told me about this site, kind of wish he hadn't, because now there may an update in October. Don't care about Retina display, but really want the newest in processors, to hopefully hold off buying another computer for 5-10 years. So, any thoughts? Do I hope the dinosaur holds out another few months and suffer in slow motion computing? What if there isn't anything new by then, wait another few months based on rumors? Hmmm??
 

RBR2

macrumors 6502
Jan 12, 2003
307
43
O.K., it's true, I really have a 10 year old iMac G4 and everything still works! ...... Very slowly ;) So, I was looking forward to updating to a maxed out, new Imac in hopes of having another long run. Sadly, it will have to be the 21.5 inch one, because the wife absolutely hates the big one. ("Why do you need to see your email as big as a t.v.?") Then my brother told me about this site, kind of wish he hadn't, because now there may an update in October. Don't care about Retina display, but really want the newest in processors, to hopefully hold off buying another computer for 5-10 years. So, any thoughts? Do I hope the dinosaur holds out another few months and suffer in slow motion computing? What if there isn't anything new by then, wait another few months based on rumors? Hmmm??

I also am in need of moving from the PPC world to an Intel machine. I have the last of the G4s which has served me well until recently (it won't run anything beyond PS CS 4 or LR 2 so it's time). Like some other people I have doubts about Apple's hardware path in the future. Apple have been late bringing quite a few products to market which heightens such concerns.

At this stage, what have you got to lose by waiting a few months? If your machine keeps working, can you do enough of what you need to do on the old machine? If so, I say hang in there a little while longer.

If you have a need to change before then, that changes things. Do what you have to do. The Ivy Bridge processor would be nice to have, but the Sandy Bridge processor is going to be so much more powerful than what you have been using that there simply is no comparison. The Ivy Bridge processor, according to sources I have read, should be 10-15% faster than its Sandy Bridge counterpart and will have a slightly smaller thermal profile.

I don't think I can wait until Feb to see what is going to come along, but I am definitely waiting until October. I'll see what things look like then.

Sitting on the sidelines isn't easy.

Cheers
 
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