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quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,910
2,338
Neuroscience would. In fact, your brain is still maturing into your twenties.

So if a 22 year old did this, would you still be saying it would be irresponsible? Since your brain is still maturing.......

I see no problem with this besides her decision to do it in the winter. People are way too uptight with kids these days trying to protect them from everything "bad" in the world( bad in quotes due to the subjectivity of what is truly bad). I do find it ironic that in some states, it is legal to give consent at 16, but in order to watch sex you have to be 18. But, that is another topic for another thread.


Well, if you choose a car as a status symbol to mask your insecurities...
I buy a car to get me from point A to point B. :rolleyes:

I buy a car based on how fun it is between points A and B. :) To me, cars are not a toaster on wheels.
 

quagmire

macrumors 604
Apr 19, 2004
6,910
2,338
The more years you put between your age now and 22 you realize, "yeah, I was pretty much a dumbass."

I am 4 years departed from 16, and I would not call myself a dumbass at that age. Did I make some mistakes? Yes, but I wasn't the typical immature prick teens are who do stupid crap like throwing toilet paper on peoples houses, knocking mailboxes down, drugs, getting wasted, etc. Hell at 16, I was a very cautious driver. Since then I have only had one speeding ticket and been in one accident( other drivers fault). At 17, I got a job working nights at a car dealership working during the spring of Junior year and all through senior year. I never got a detention in school. I always paid attention in class and took notes like I should. I behaved at school. It's hard to judge maturity by simply going by age. If this girl had the maturity and experience( from what it seems, she has been sailing all her life), then I see no problem with her trying to accomplish her goal. If she did die because of it, I still wouldn't have a problem with it. I would rather die trying to do what she did then die because I was immature and OD on some drug like other teens do.

People are too uptight and think teenagers are incapable of doing anything for themselves.
 

Gregg2

macrumors 604
May 22, 2008
7,189
1,179
Milwaukee, WI
So if a 22 year old did this, would you still be saying it would be irresponsible? Since your brain is still maturing.......

Never said anything about responsible or irresponsible. Just commented about age of a kid vs. adult.


I buy a car based on how fun it is between points A and B. :) To me, cars are not a toaster on wheels.

I sincerely hope you always get to point B.
 

Signal-11

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,474
2
2nd Star to the Right
I think it's great that people don't understand the Sunderland girl making the attempt and not comprehending her parents' trust in her. If everyone in the world thought like her and her parents, human society and civilization would probably quickly fall apart. The majority of people need to stay home and not lead the life less ordinary. That's fine. Ordinary is okay. Normal is good. In fact, the more I've deviated from the norm, the more I realize normal is great. Ain't nothing wrong with vanilla.

What offends me are the people who suggest that she's less capable of mitigating the risks or that her parents are guilty of criminal neglect. Now we're getting into the world view that everyone must think like you and behave as you do. If they don't, they must be punished. WTF is that? Seriously, that's a the shadow of a Chinese wheat proverb gone bad.

Some 16 year olds are ready for responsibility. You give them great responsibility and they respond by rising to the occasion. You place trust in them and they'll respond by showing you that they're trustworthy. I've seen 16 year olds that are much more fastidious and responsible than the adults around them simply because that's what's expected of them.

Then there's that other hand, where if you treat a teenager like a child, they respond by being children. I saw a this in a lot of overprotective parents and overprotected kids when I was growing up. Kids who were never allowed to explore, grow on their own or do anything outside of the view of their parents ending up being the most stunted and childish.

Most teenagers are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum but just because your particular view is of one end doesn't mean the other doesn't exist.

Anyway, so young Abby tried something that all but the very tiniest fraction of humankind would believe an impossible task for themselves. If given the opportunity, most of people wouldn't even try out of nothing but fear.

How lonely.

So I used to work with this dude, a former Dutch Royal Marine, who I kept running into on different assignments all over the world. This guy always had better adventure stories than everyone else in an organization full of adventurer types. Definitely a one-upper, but I didn't mind so much because they were some great stories.

Once, he told me about the time he sailed solo from Indonesia to the Netherlands. He hadn't really prepped himself for it (was sort of tooling around the archipelago on a kayak) and had done it on kind of a whim when a countryman with more money than sense bought a wooden sailboat before the fool realized that he wasn't capable of sailing it back to Europe. So he hired my friend.

Anyway, because he hadn't really thought things through himself, my friend hadn't taken anything to keep his mind occupied. At one point in the journey, during some particularly calm seas, he found himself entertaining himself at night by cutting off small pieces of his t-shirt and placing them into sardine tins (with the oil still in them) as wicks, lighting the cloth, placing the tins into the water and watching them float off. This was his entertainment.

Eventually had to stop because he ran out of clothes to burn.

Oddly enough, he told me this story while we were bored out of our minds sitting out a dust storm in a desert.
 

Antares

macrumors 68000
Neuroscience would. In fact, your brain is still maturing into your twenties.

The things that people do/are allowed to do should not have anything to do with age or the maturity of the brain. It should only invole one's skill and ability to complete the task successfully. Be it a 12 year old or a 43 year old. What this girl attempted is admirable. 16 isn't too young, by the least bit....as long as she had the knowledge, training and experience...which she obviously seems to have had.

As others have said, our society coddles children too much these days. Instead, we should let them go out and experience things, free from the limitations that are placed on them today. If you teach and train children properly, they will be able to handle whatever they want to do, without any more issues than a person 10, 20 or 30 years older. Moreover, this overprotection of children is what is really limiting them and preventing them from truly developing to their full potential. This "overprotection" of children is doing them more harm than anything else.
 

bobr1952

macrumors 68020
Jan 21, 2008
2,040
39
Melbourne, FL
I totally agree--kids her age and younger are capable of a lot more than some would allow them to do. If they are capable of the task, and it is a reasonable task that an older person would attempt, then why not give the kid the opportunity. Coddling is really out of hand especially it seems here in the US.

I'm really happy to hear that Abby is doing well--she really seems to have things well under control considering the circumstances.
 

Ttownbeast

macrumors 65816
May 10, 2009
1,135
1
In the summers from 8 years old to 11 I used to inner tube on the rivers in lane county Oregon sometimes taking trips as long as 15 miles along a few of the Willamette rivers tributaries gone from sunrise to sunset in most cases my parents didn't worry much and I always got home safe. The rapids were always fun to run in a giant truck tube. Taking long bicycle rides weren't that unusual either a few times I took my Huffy 12 speed and would do 50 to 60 miles on the old logging roads in the area too. All this before I was even anywhere near my teens.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
People are too uptight and think teenagers are incapable of doing anything for themselves.
For the most part teenagers are dumb *****. When I turned 21 I thought I was all grown up. I
am 30 now and looking back now I don't think I really grew up until 25.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
Juat because you were a dumb **** doesn't mean all, or even most, teenagers are.
Have you seen most teenagers? I don't care how old you think you feel, everyone has to grow up before they realize that they were a dumb ****.
 

Gregg2

macrumors 604
May 22, 2008
7,189
1,179
Milwaukee, WI
The things that people do/are allowed to do should have not have anything to do with age or the maturity of the brain. It should only invole one's skill and ability to complete the task successfully.

:rolleyes: Anybody else want to read something into my post that isn't there?

However, this is a very ludicrous statement, when made without qualification! Sure, let's let 3 year olds smoke, and 9 year olds run the nuclear power plant! I don't care if the 9 year old is a genius and has the skill and ability to run that plant. The maturity level is still an issue, 'cause one moment of immaturity, and boom! we're toast.

The neuroscience I was referring to deals with the fact that parts of the brain that perceive danger are not developed even in the late teens. This is in fact a very good argument for not allowing teens to drive cars! (or serve in the military!!) Many states have compromised by issuing drivers licenses in stages, tied to the age of the driver. After all, a disproportionate number of drivers who cause accidents are young (also inexperienced, I know). Uh-oh, here come the angry posts of teen drivers... wait, take out the "angry posts" part! :eek:
 

TuffLuffJimmy

macrumors G3
Apr 6, 2007
9,022
136
Portland, OR
Have you seen most teenagers? I don't care how old you think you feel, everyone has to grow up before they realize that they were a dumb ****.

That seems like circular reasoning. Perhaps one day you will feel older yet and think of your current self as a dumb ****.
 

Signal-11

macrumors 65816
Mar 23, 2008
1,474
2
2nd Star to the Right
The neuroscience I was referring to deals with the fact that parts of the brain that perceive danger are not developed even in the late teens. This is in fact a very good argument for not allowing teens to drive cars! (or serve in the military!!) Many states have compromised by issuing drivers licenses in stages, tied to the age of the driver. After all, a disproportionate number of drivers who cause accidents are young (also inexperienced, I know). Uh-oh, here come the angry posts of teen drivers... wait, take out the "angry posts" part! :eek:

The functioning of militaries (well, the Real military and not the Air Force) throughout history have been predicated on the idea of teenagers and young men with more balls than sense. In fact, all war is predicated on it.

What you say about neurological development is true and no one is denying this. Teenagers don't perceive risk (this is the word you were looking for, not danger) in the same way older people do. There's also a difference in genders.

The trouble comes when you start applying biological reasoning to entire populations with no concern paid to outliers. This discussion started with Abby Sunderland, who is obviously not a run of the mill kid. In some ways, this young woman probably has a better head on her shoulders than most. Yet some would like to apply the ageist argument that because she's 16, she's simply incapable of 'feats' of sailing than someone two, three years her senior? Now THAT notion is ridiculous.

Plus there's a whole line of reasoning that goes that certain physical skills can only be taught at a young age before people start developing a sense of physical risk.

For the most part teenagers are dumb *****. When I turned 21 I thought I was all grown up. I
am 30 now and looking back now I don't think I really grew up until 25.

I'm older than you are by a few years and I can tell you than I'm still nowhere near being a "grown-up." The only thing I've realized about growing up is that all those people who I thought were grown-ups that came before me and I looked up to were doing the same thing I'm doing now, which is making **** up as the go along and hoping things turn out okay.

I was probably a much bigger dumbass than you when I was 16. In fact, I'd say my failures were pretty spectacular. When I was 16, I'd already managed to fail out of college (in the US sense, university for RoW readers) mostly because the only thing I really cared about was fighting and fight sports. I would later manage to repeat this little feat of academic self destruction before earning my first set of bachelors degrees. By my 17th birthday, I had already lost two professional fights by KO. By 18, I'd managed to get myself choked unconscious several times in collegiate judo competition in Korea and Japan, (and more than once by future Olympians) because I was too stupid to tap. Two weeks after I turned 18, I walked into the ROTC building saying "Sign me up! I want the contract that lets me jump out of airplanes and helicopters." Fast forward a few years and it turns out that I don't really believe in war. Too bad I signed that contract when I was 18. Doh.

My entire teens were about trying to go too far, too fast while losing massive amounts of brain cells along the way. And yet I don't regret a moment of it because I had the chance to make those mistakes on my own merits. Or lack of merit. And even though I'm still (physically) paying for those mistakes.

I see teenagers being coddled by society, turned into overgrown children - and in this instance, I am using the phrase pejoratively - who jump at shadows, fear the unknown and are incapable of forming their own thoughts; who are always looking for an authority figure to protect them from what they don't understand, who are afraid to try new things and learn more about the world around them; people who aren't capable of taking responsibility for their own actions and are always on the lookout for someone else to blame.

This is what you end up with when you're not allowed to stand on your own two feet, fail and then get back up.

So what's the worst that can happen for the teenagers who reach a little too far while trying to excel? A couple of them take themselves out of the gene pool? Small price to pay for a truly free society.

/rant

BTW, That wasn't personally directed at you, MacNut. Rant just kinda got out of hand.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
BTW, That wasn't personally directed at you, MacNut. Rant just kinda got out of hand.
Don't worry about it.

The older you get as a person the more you learn, We will always look back at our past and think wow I have changed. Every year you learn more about yourself and the world around you. To say at 16 that you are all grown up is bull. We will always make mistakes that we wish we could get back and do over but we can only learn from our past and move forward.

I would love to go back to age 14-21 and just get a big do over.
 

dmr727

macrumors G4
Original poster
Dec 29, 2007
10,420
5,161
NYC
I tend to look back at myself in five year intervals, and each time I'm astounded by what a dumbass I was. I figure this will be true for the rest of my life. :)

But I don't think any of this is all that relevant to the issue - if Abby Sunderland is prepared for this kind of trip, she's prepared for this kind of trip. And as long as this is the case, I admire the attempt.

My worry is that attempts to beat age records apply a time pressure that could potentially cause corners to be cut in preparation, or less than sound judgement to be used. Not saying that's the case here, but I could see it happening.
 

cloroxbleach4

macrumors 6502a
Dec 28, 2007
618
10
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Just watched a cnn segement about this girl. Pretty amazing that she tried. Also her brother did it before.

She must have those sail around the world by yourself genes. Hard to find.
 
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