1st time on a mac (former Windows): Help me pick external storage and understand back up procedure please?

[MacBH928]

Hard drives are non-directional. angle or direction makes no difference at all.

I don't know, the "needle" in there and the disks might not like the "gravitation" being upside down or something. I was always super scared to moved a spinning disk while its working

The fiip side is...when HDs fail, they often give warning by acting or sounding funny. This sometimes gives users some time to retrieve data and swap out before failure, just like in the OP's experience. SSDs typically fail catastrophically with no chance of data recovery.

If HD starts to give noises, is it still reliable to retrieve data from? I always imagined the hardware malfunctioned and whatever data you retrieve might be "corrupted"

For any body following along, most Mac syncing and backup apps use the old Unix tool rsync as the actual engine, and the dev adds a user-friendly GUI so we don't all have to be CLI warriors. Last time I checked, CCC and SuperDuper, along with literally dozens of other tools were built on rsync.

rsync gui? where? i heard there was an attempt but it unreliable and bad.

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is there a software that I can use encrypted cloud storage like proton drive and Filen as a destination for backup? unencrypted ones like OneDrive and Gdrive has many but not the encrypted ones.

 

[hobowankenobi]

I don't know, the "needle" in there and the disks might not like the "gravitation" being upside down or something. I was always super scared to moved a spinning disk while its working

Yes, bumping spinning drives is not wise. Again, this is true of all devices, including laptops and external HDs, millions of which are out in the wild, getting moved and bumped while spinning. The head (the "needle") cannot touch the platter(s); a head crash is destructive.

Using bare drives in a dock is not inherently more risky than any other external. Same rule: don't move it or bump it. While it is in use. Unmounting a HD parks the heads, removing the risk of a head crash.

The orientation of the drive is not an issue. Plenty of devices have them at all different angles; Many servers position HDs vertically. Many devices have them inverted. No issues.

If HD starts to give noises, is it still reliable to retrieve data from? I always imagined the hardware malfunctioned and whatever data you retrieve might be "corrupted"

Often, yes, it is possible. Not always. The point was...HDs are often recoverable if one acts soon enough. SSDs are nearly never recoverable.

rsync gui? where? i heard there was an attempt but it unreliable and bad.

Rsync GUIs are everywhere. Many Mac backup tools are exactly that: a friendly interface to rsync, or at least incorporate rsync for some primary functions....including CCC.

There are probably 30 out in the wild or more if you include all the open-source and homebrew versions over the last 20 years. There are even some on the Mac App Store. You have to love Arsync...notice the pirate flag. What do pirates say? ARRRR!

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Back to the OP...if you want to compare TimeMachine to other options, there is a pretty good list over here at the GetBackup Pro site. Keep in mind other third party backup apps have similar, or even more options and benefits over Time Machine.

 

[hobowankenobi]

is there a software that I can use encrypted cloud storage like proton drive and Filen as a destination for backup? unencrypted ones like OneDrive and Gdrive has many but not the encrypted ones.

OneDrive is encrypted. Both at rest and in transit. Many other cloud storage is too, including iCloud, Mega, Dropbox, and others.

Encryption is typically not the issue (most have it)...the issue is who holds the encryption keys? Many companies hold the keys, which means they can be forced to turn those over with a subpoena or court order. Apple does not hold the keys (if one opts for advanced security), nor does Mega ever. So the encryption key can't be lost, stolen, or given away by them.

Unless the cloud provider explicitly states they never have the encryption keys...we should assume they hold them, and that means it is out of our control.

If you want a syncing tool, not a cloud service, many use encryption, including some BU tools listed already. Syncthing is worth a look, as is Resilio.

 

[MacBH928]

Yes, bumping spinning drives is not wise. Again, this is true of all devices, including laptops and external HDs, millions of which are out in the wild, getting moved and bumped while spinning. The head (the "needle") cannot touch the platter(s); a head crash is destructive.

Using bare drives in a dock is not inherently more risky than any other external. Same rule: don't move it or bump it. While it is in use. Unmounting a HD parks the heads, removing the risk of a head crash.

The orientation of the drive is not an issue. Plenty of devices have them at all different angles; Many servers position HDs vertically. Many devices have them inverted. No issues.


Often, yes, it is possible. Not always. The point was...HDs are often recoverable if one acts soon enough. SSDs are nearly never recoverable.

Rsync GUIs are everywhere. Many Mac backup tools are exactly that: a friendly interface to rsync, or at least incorporate rsync for some primary functions....including CCC.

There are probably 30 out in the wild or more if you include all the open-source and homebrew versions over the last 20 years. There are even some on the Mac App Store. You have to love Arsync...notice the pirate flag. What do pirates say? ARRRR!

---

Back to the OP...if you want to compare TimeMachine to other options, there is a pretty good list over here at the GetBackup Pro site. Keep in mind other third party backup apps have similar, or even more options and benefits over Time Machine.

very insightful information thanks!

do you happen to know if its safe to unplug an HDD after I "eject" it by the OS but the HDD still keeps spinning and the light keeps blinking? idk why it does that, some HDD shuts down immediately others keep spinning for a good 5 min or more.

OneDrive is encrypted. Both at rest and in transit. Many other cloud storage is too, including iCloud, Mega, Dropbox, and others.

Encryption is typically not the issue (most have it)...the issue is who holds the encryption keys? Many companies hold the keys, which means they can be forced to turn those over with a subpoena or court order. Apple does not hold the keys (if one opts for advanced security), nor does Mega ever. So the encryption key can't be lost, stolen, or given away by them.

Unless the cloud provider explicitly states they never have the encryption keys...we should assume they hold them, and that means it is out of our control.

If you want a syncing tool, not a cloud service, many use encryption, including some BU tools listed already. Syncthing is worth a look, as is Resilio.

thats like selling a safe, giving the customer one key and keeping the other key with you. Its no use. Encrypted should mean only I have access to it. Saying encrypted but we can unlock it, you might as well not.

 

[hobowankenobi]

thats like selling a safe, giving the customer one key and keeping the other key with you. Its no use. Encrypted should mean only I have access to it. Saying encrypted but we can unlock it, you might as well not.

kind of...yes. It might be more like buying a safe from somebody you really trust, but they could get robbed or blackmailed into giving up the key. Odds are low that something like happens...but it could. And you would have no recourse.

To Apple's credit, they do better than any other big tech company I am aware of at NOT putting back doors into systems that could be used/abused by anybody.

 

[hobowankenobi]

do you happen to know if its safe to unplug an HDD after I "eject" it by the OS but the HDD still keeps spinning and the light keeps blinking? idk why it does that, some HDD shuts down immediately others keep spinning for a good 5 min or more.

Modern drives are pretty safe, and park heads even if not unmounted gracefully. Usually, the only risk to an abrupt disconnect might be data being written, and even that seems less of an issue than a couple of decades ago. The drive can still spin and wind down (no braking), or, there might be other parameters such as power-saving features or built self-diagnostics, or stuff the OS might be up to.

 

[PhunkyBuc]

Appreciate all the thoughts that have been added here.

I think for now I'm just going to pick up 2 WD My Passport 4TB External USB 3.0 Portable Hard Drives... about $260 or so when all said and done which isn't too bad. WD still seems to be like one of the better / more consistent and stable hard drive brands AFAIK

And as much as I hate paying Apple for their outrageous pricing on RAM and storage, I think I'm gonna pony up the extra $$ and go for the 4TB drive in my new Studio. Want to be safe with a machine that I intend to put to work for the next 6-7 years.

 

[hobowankenobi]

I think for now I'm just going to pick up 2 WD My Passport 4TB External USB 3.0 Portable Hard Drives... about $260 or so when all said and done which isn't too bad. WD still seems to be like one of the better / more consistent and stable hard drive brands AFAIK

Nothing wrong with that. I like the Synology route, but it only pays dividends if you are backing up multiple devices, and have at least one laptop and roam around a lot. It is great...but there is setup and a bit of admin compared to external drives.

 

[MacBH928]

Modern drives are pretty safe, and park heads even if not unmounted gracefully. Usually, the only risk to an abrupt disconnect might be data being written, and even that seems less of an issue than a couple of decades ago. The drive can still spin and wind down (no braking), or, there might be other parameters such as power-saving features or built self-diagnostics, or stuff the OS might be up to.

Appreciate all the thoughts that have been added here.

I think for now I'm just going to pick up 2 WD My Passport 4TB External USB 3.0 Portable Hard Drives... about $260 or so when all said and done which isn't too bad. WD still seems to be like one of the better / more consistent and stable hard drive brands AFAIK

And as much as I hate paying Apple for their outrageous pricing on RAM and storage, I think I'm gonna pony up the extra $$ and go for the 4TB drive in my new Studio. Want to be safe with a machine that I intend to put to work for the next 6-7 years.

I think there is about only 2 HDD manufacturers , WD and Seagate. I think everyone else is just bulk buying from them and rebranding as their own. I heard Toshiba had their own manufacturing plant but things do not look good for that company.

Nothing wrong with that. I like the Synology route, but it only pays dividends if you are backing up multiple devices, and have at least one laptop and roam around a lot. It is great...but there is setup and a bit of admin compared to external drives.

is it 1 HDD per computer for backup, or you just stackup HDDs to synology , connect to it , and it does its thing?

 

[hobowankenobi]

is it 1 HDD per computer for backup, or you just stackup HDDs to synology , connect to it , and it does its thing?

There are a few ways it can be configured.

I like a large 2+ drive array to give some protection against drive failure. With a NAS one can create a share and assign a quota for space, so that each device getting backed up gets the amount of space you want to allocate to it...preventing one device from hogging all the space. You can treat the space as a "drive", but have more flexibility to make changes as needed, and use space more efficiently. Using mutiple drives means that one can "grow" a volume without starting over...by replacing one drive at a time with larger models.

3rd party backup tools work, or, one can use the built-in sync and backup tool Drive, which is very good at backing up user data with either continuous or scheduled options.

I should note a negative: Synology used to support lots of brands and models of HDs, but now they only support their own, greatly limiting storage options. As I understand it, some folks still use their own "unsupported" drives, but that may be too risky for many to sleep well at night. I would be comfortable with non-synology drives, but it is a consideration.

 

[MacBH928]

I should note a negative: Synology used to support lots of brands and models of HDs, but now they only support their own, greatly limiting storage options. As I understand it, some folks still use their own "unsupported" drives, but that may be too risky for many to sleep well at night. I would be comfortable with non-synology drives, but it is a consideration.

why? isn't all drives a standard and compatible using the sata interface?

 

[hobowankenobi]

why? isn't all drives a standard and compatible using the sata interface?

This is about what is supported. This is not uncommon with RAID controllers. Historically, some RAID controllers are very finicky about needing matched or known and tested drive models.

Synology was always a favorite as they officially supported a wide spectrum of drive brands and models. They changed recently, and only support their own branded drives. Why? I'm sure it saves them support time and headaches related to RAID/drive issues. Plus, they can make money on re-branded HDs. More info here.

Unsupported drives will show an error, which is what users are ignoring or turning off. Is there risk of data loss? Most folks say no, but it is up to each user to decide. Now that it has been a few years, I would think we would be able to find tales of woe if data loss due to "unsupported" drives was a risk.

 

[PhunkyBuc]

This is about what is supported. This is not uncommon with RAID controllers. Historically, some RAID controllers are very finicky about needing matched or known and tested drive models.

Synology was always a favorite as they officially supported a wide spectrum of drive brands and models. They changed recently, and only support their own branded drives. Why? I'm sure it saves them support time and headaches related to RAID/drive issues. Plus, they can make money on re-branded HDs. More info here.

It's worth noting that if you change the dropdown on that page from "Synology" to "3rd party", it loads a table with a pretty extensive list of other brands / drives that they say they support: https://www.synology.com/en-global/compatibility?search_by=category&category=hdds_no_ssd_trim

However, I don't know if compatibility differs depending on which NAS unit you're putting the drives into.

 

[MacBH928]

This is about what is supported. This is not uncommon with RAID controllers. Historically, some RAID controllers are very finicky about needing matched or known and tested drive models.

Synology was always a favorite as they officially supported a wide spectrum of drive brands and models. They changed recently, and only support their own branded drives. Why? I'm sure it saves them support time and headaches related to RAID/drive issues. Plus, they can make money on re-branded HDs. More info here.

Unsupported drives will show an error, which is what users are ignoring or turning off. Is there risk of data loss? Nost folks say no, but it is up to each user to decide. Now that it has been a few years, I would think we would be able to find tales of woe if data loss due to "unsupported" drives was a risk.

hmm...thanks. This is new information to me. I thought all drives are standard that will the same no matter what.

 

[hobowankenobi]

hmm...thanks. This is new information to me. I thought all drives are standard that will the same no matter what.

Nope. Long history of disk speed, read/write speed, head seak time, cache, energy saving features, and other differences between models.

Most are too small for humans to notice during normal use, but RAID controllers must manage synchronizing data across drives continuously. While not that common...drive timing can be an issue. Good discussion about it here. Again...the safe thing to do is to use supported models. The most conservative tactic is to use all the same model (and firmware version) of hard drives.

Plenty of people (including me) mix and match HDs, and have no issues...but it is good to be aware of possible issues.

 

[AppleMango]

Dear @HobeSoundDarryl ,
after initial issues with my new MBP and having to reorder it, I followed your steps, got 2x LaCie Rugged 4TB drives and set my TimeMachine up.

It went exactly as you predicted and now I‘ve got my off-site backup and on-site backup + weekly reminder with intermediate-cloud backup to not lose anything in between back ups.

I feel much more confident now with that and it gave me a bit peace of mind to also just explore and dive into the new MBP which is also my first one. Lots to discover and it‘s great fun!

You really are amazing with your help and I can’t thank you enough! Absolutely brilliant!
And on a side note: I’ve been curious around other people and family to find out who is doing what for their backup strategy or data safety and the majority is not doing anything! So it’s still a very common problem.

Also a huge thank you to you, @hobowankenobi - this thread has become super valuable for me!

 

[coffeemilktea]

I've got all my most important stuff backed up to iCloud and Google Drive.

But there's also copies of them (along with a lot of relatively unimportant stuff) stored on older computers I still use, and also on various cheap external hard drives that I formatted as APFS (Apple FileSystem) and encrypted.

With all these backups/copies around, if my laptop suddenly got destroyed in a freak accident, I'd only be mildly inconvenienced at this point. 🤷‍♂️

 

[MacBH928]

Dear @HobeSoundDarryl ,
after initial issues with my new MBP and having to reorder it, I followed your steps, got 2x LaCie Rugged 4TB drives and set my TimeMachine up.

It went exactly as you predicted and now I‘ve got my off-site backup and on-site backup + weekly reminder with intermediate-cloud backup to not lose anything in between back ups.

I feel much more confident now with that and it gave me a bit peace of mind to also just explore and dive into the new MBP which is also my first one. Lots to discover and it‘s great fun!

You really are amazing with your help and I can’t thank you enough! Absolutely brilliant!
And on a side note: I’ve been curious around other people and family to find out who is doing what for their backup strategy or data safety and the majority is not doing anything! So it’s still a very common problem.

Also a huge thank you to you, @hobowankenobi - this thread has become super valuable for me!

I am still looking for a solution to backup my whole drive to the cloud + encrypted + FOSS. There are solutions but they are closed source apps which I do not trust like backup blaze

 

[hobowankenobi]

I am still looking for a solution to backup my whole drive to the cloud + encrypted + FOSS. There are solutions but they are closed source apps which I do not trust like backup blaze

So...does that mean you don't want to use any cloud vendors with their own clients? That's most of them.

There are some paid tools that can mount cloud storage in the Finder. That could allow backup tools of your choice.

CloudMounter
ExpanDrive
Mountain Duck

 

[MacBH928]

So...does that mean you don't want to use any cloud vendors with their own clients? That's most of them.

There are some paid tools that can mount cloud storage in the Finder. That could allow backup tools of your choice.

CloudMounter
ExpanDrive
Mountain Duck

I want a FOSS tool to do encrypted incremental backups of my HDD to the cloud, like a physical disk but in the cloud. Closest thing is Cryptomater but last I checked Cryptomater can not be used as a backup destination. At least not with Carbon Copy Cloner.

I can encrypt first using veracrypt then upload but then that will be like 500GB upload each time not to mention encryption time.

 

[hobowankenobi]

I want a FOSS tool to do encrypted incremental backups of my HDD to the cloud, like a physical disk but in the cloud. Closest thing is Cryptomater but last I checked Cryptomater can not be used as a backup destination. At least not with Carbon Copy Cloner.

I can encrypt first using veracrypt then upload but then that will be like 500GB upload each time not to mention encryption time.

Don't know of any. The client/tool would have to decrypt the destination...and all the tools that do that (that I know of) for cloud storage are commercial clients provided by the vendor, like Back Blaze.

The best of this type of tool I am aware of is Mega. Cloud solution, so a subscription cost (competitive pricing), but all data is encrypted in transit and at rest, and they don't have the encryption key. The Mac client is solid, never any issues with it. Been using it for about a decade, due to both a good web interface and great Finder integration. Try for free if you are looking for cloud storage...I think they give 20GB forever.

 

[MacBH928]

Don't know of any. The client/tool would have to decrypt the destination...and all the tools that do that (that I know of) for cloud storage are commercial clients provided by the vendor, like Back Blaze.

The best of this type of tool I am aware of is Mega. Cloud solution, so a subscription cost (competitive pricing), but all data is encrypted in transit and at rest, and they don't have the encryption key. The Mac client is solid, never any issues with it. Been using it for about a decade, due to both a good web interface and great Finder integration. Try for free if you are looking for cloud storage...I think they give 20GB forever.

how can we trust that they do not have the encryption keys? or something funny happening in the background?

filen.io and protonDrive promises this too but idk...

 

[hobowankenobi]

how can we trust that they do not have the encryption keys? or something funny happening in the background?

filen.io and protonDrive promises this too but idk...

A fair point. Quite a few companies have similar policies. Even Apple does for all our devices...it used to be that they did retain keys for iCloud, which means data is safe and out of their hands on Apple devices, but not in their cloud. A good start, but a huge hole that some don't realize.

I see they now have an option to even disable this, meaning only we have the keys to our stuff, if we turn on this option. Nice chart to help sort it out also.

We can ask the same about nearly every company/product in tech. We all have to pick some platforms to trust. In the past, there have been several companies that have reported not having encryption keys, and when subpoenaed...sure enough they could not be forced to produce what they did not have.

 

[MacBH928]

A fair point. Quite a few companies have similar policies. Even Apple does for all our devices...it used to be that they did retain keys for iCloud, which means data is safe and out of their hands on Apple devices, but not in their cloud. A good start, but a huge hole that some don't realize.

I see they now have an option to even disable this, meaning only we have the keys to our stuff, if we turn on this option. Nice chart to help sort it out also.

We can ask the same about nearly every company/product in tech. We all have to pick some platforms to trust. In the past, there have been several companies that have reported not having encryption keys, and when subpoenaed...sure enough they could not be forced to produce what they did not have.

I just learned that ProtonDrive client is FOSS and does encryption on device before sending it to the cloud, so I guess you can trust that. Don't know about the iOS app though.

 

[wonderings]

Backups do not need to be complicated, and can be set and forget for the most part. Lots of good stuff here, with lots of reading. The basics I think is having 2 backups, one local and one offsite. My simple setup is a Time Machine backup which is great for work with hourly backups and super easy restore of your whole system or individual files if and when needed.

2nd backup I use is an offsite cloud backup. I use BackBlaze. I have no affiliation with them, just a content user. This runs in the background and has unlimited backup storage. This backs up the entire computer, as well as external drives if you select them to backup as well. First backup can take a while as it is. uploading everything to the cloud, but after that you don't even notice that it is running.

www.backblaze.com