I liked Camino but it got outdated fast. I checked out Firefox but I use it at work (on Windows2K) and it is the crashiest piece of crap I have ever seen. That has kept me from using it much on OS X. Right now I use Safari and, for a change up, a recent nightly build of Camino. The 0.8 builds of Camino really rock. I don't like the look of the tabs but everything else is great. Downloads actually work now (they had a habit of simply stopping in the middle before). And it hasn't crashed on me once. I have the Camino RC1 downloaded but haven't installed it yet. I'll probably do that this weekend.
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Talk about just plain wrong. Small companies don't have to write to specific browsers. They can write to W3C standards and be well-assured that their sites will work as intended in Gecko-based browers (Mozilla, Camino, Firefox, etc.), Internet Explorer, and most other browers out there. Furthermore, you downplay the marketshare of Safari. Safari is based on WebCORE. OmniWeb uses the same engine. WebCORE is derived from KHTML, which is the basis of Konqueror, the popular Linux brower.tace said:
Let me get this right. You never tried Firefox but you think Safari is great and all web software needs to work with Safari? A) Safari doesn't have much of a market share. Which means it is not feasible for most small companies to certify against. B) It doesn't even support things like tabbed browsing. C) From the point of view of SW companies they test against IE becuase of its market share, and Mozilla variants, because they are proven and accepted cross platform open source. Also, cross platform is a major word there. Even IE supports more than 1 platform, or at least it did.
MisterMe said:
Actually we write according to W3C standards but some of the applications we integrate with (Small stuff like SAP, PeopleSoft, SalesForce, etc.) actually render different code depending on which browser is used to display their pages. This becomes an issue with us since we have to test integration with all the iterations they provide. Shortly, IE and Mozilla is what all the big boys write code to and we get forced into testing stuff with those even if we certify to W3C standards.
I can tell you that even though we use lots of *NUX, none of the SW companies I deal with test stuff on Konqueror.
I use Safari, it has been the best browser on OS X for a while now.
My browser history (in brief):
The Netscape/Mozilla family and I go way back (started using Netscape 0.9.x on my Performa 630 in 1994), but even I had to abandon that browser somwhere between 4.0 and 4.76 when it was just plain awful. For a while there at the end of the 90's IE actually was the best browser for the mac platform - this was dark times. Things got better when Mozilla 1.0 was getting closer, and for a while there Mozilla 0.9.x-1.2.x was my primary browser, until Safari got rid of the worst bugs and came out in version 1.0.
A future without Safari?
I really look forward to Firefox 1.0, if they manage to develop it in to a slick fast (loading) browser I might switch later (if they don't fix some issues I have with Safari, like its poor, proprietarian bookmark handling - why can't I import/export from/to html?). I actually perfer Firefox over Camino, but that is more feeling, and, maybe, because I'm used to Mozilla and Firefox from the Linux environment at school.
Opera has always been a good browser on other platforms, but the mac versions have always been really crappy... the new 7.5 seem to redeem this and is now my backup-browser (it can even maskerade as IE for the sites that want to be "exclucive"...).
My browser history (in brief):
The Netscape/Mozilla family and I go way back (started using Netscape 0.9.x on my Performa 630 in 1994), but even I had to abandon that browser somwhere between 4.0 and 4.76 when it was just plain awful. For a while there at the end of the 90's IE actually was the best browser for the mac platform - this was dark times. Things got better when Mozilla 1.0 was getting closer, and for a while there Mozilla 0.9.x-1.2.x was my primary browser, until Safari got rid of the worst bugs and came out in version 1.0.
A future without Safari?
I really look forward to Firefox 1.0, if they manage to develop it in to a slick fast (loading) browser I might switch later (if they don't fix some issues I have with Safari, like its poor, proprietarian bookmark handling - why can't I import/export from/to html?). I actually perfer Firefox over Camino, but that is more feeling, and, maybe, because I'm used to Mozilla and Firefox from the Linux environment at school.
Opera has always been a good browser on other platforms, but the mac versions have always been really crappy... the new 7.5 seem to redeem this and is now my backup-browser (it can even maskerade as IE for the sites that want to be "exclucive"...).
Maybe it's because Apple doesn't want you to switch browsers after you start using SafariMitthrawnuruodo said:
That's the only thing I don't like about Safari's bookmark handling - everything else I like.
tace said:
Safari doesn't support tabbed browsing? since when? wasn't that like one of the first major revisions to the Safari beta?
wrldwzrd89 said:Maybe it's because Apple doesn't want you to switch browsers after you start using Safari
But I don't really want to switch, I just want to be able to export my bookmarks to Mozilla/Firebird(/Opera) on the Linux environment I'm using some of the time at school.
I also would like (at least the possibility to) have the favicons showing in the Bookmarks Bar (even though it would eat up some of my precious 12" screen space).
Apart from this I quite like the bookmark handling...
On other issues:
- Safari could be snappier, especially when having several tabs open...
- Sometimes lately, some links doesn't respond when I click them - I have to move the mouse cursor befor it reacts (I guess it some kind of redraw issue in either Safari or even OS X 10.3), and I hope this is dealt with...
- I would like to have more control over the pop-up killer (places like my Internet bank depends on pop-ups), like in Mozilla where you can say Kill all pop-ups EXCEPT these specified sites...
- The ability to say which plugins to enable and which not to, like when I surf on news sites it very handy to disable flash content (as many on-site ads are flash-based), but I still want to be able to display film or sound clips...
- There is also some problems with uploading files via Safari, so I had problem with both certain webmail sites and a system for delivering school papers on-line, and my girlfriend, who is a webdesigner, has to use IE/Mozilla when updating certain sites with Zope.
So all's NOT well, but Safari is still better than most...
Benjamin said:
thanks for the tip! i'm trying it out right now! what a great plug-in! now is it me or does firefox take at least 3 times longer then firebird took to load up? firefox is a necessity though. i couldn't keep all of my accounts balanced without it
I find it amusing that anybody espousing web standards would complain about Safari; it's not perfect, but being that it does pretty darned well with W3C specs, there's little if anything to complain about. Assuming that the site isn't using a very broken browser sniffer (which sounds like what tace is dealing with), so long as it validates and looks right in Mozilla or Opera (or any other decent standards-compliant browser), it'll look fine in Safari, too.
I admittedly don't do much tricky stuff, but in my experience if I'm writing for the Mozilla engine, and the layout looks fine, I can pretty much invariably have it look almost exactly the same in Safari, since it's actually using standards unlike the disaster that is IE.
Safari's only big weak point is it's mimicking of IE's behavior on broken markup, which is a tragic reality of the web today; if the site is coded right, render it right. If it's coded wrong, render it wrong, but very specifically wrong in the same way IE does it, otherwise all those badly written sites that "look just fine in IE" won't look just fine in your browser.
Incidentally, tace, if you're not trying to come across as sarcastically biased against Safari, you're doing a good job of it anyway. Your point about good design meaning that it just works out of the box is a good one, but misses the fundamental point that the average user doesn't use tabs, and if the average users I know are any indication, would be thoroughly confused by them--most still double click on web links, for heaven's sake.
Since it takes exactly one menu selection and two clicks into the very simple pref window to enable tabs, and 95% of the people who are interested in using tabs are computer competent enough to take a peek at their preferences anyway (to set their homepage and such), not enabling them by default seems like a smart move to me. The simpler the better, with thanks for making the preference an option at all.
And by the way, the point those guys were making is that Safari is dominant on the Mac (at least, the OSX using portion of us), so if you're interested in supporting the Mac you should make an effort to support Safari as well, which should be painless due to the standards compliance. It's not a requirement, and if you don't want to make any special concessions for the small market that is the Mac, then you can safely ignore Safari, but if you're specifically targeting the Mac a lot of people use it.
I admittedly don't do much tricky stuff, but in my experience if I'm writing for the Mozilla engine, and the layout looks fine, I can pretty much invariably have it look almost exactly the same in Safari, since it's actually using standards unlike the disaster that is IE.
Safari's only big weak point is it's mimicking of IE's behavior on broken markup, which is a tragic reality of the web today; if the site is coded right, render it right. If it's coded wrong, render it wrong, but very specifically wrong in the same way IE does it, otherwise all those badly written sites that "look just fine in IE" won't look just fine in your browser.
Incidentally, tace, if you're not trying to come across as sarcastically biased against Safari, you're doing a good job of it anyway. Your point about good design meaning that it just works out of the box is a good one, but misses the fundamental point that the average user doesn't use tabs, and if the average users I know are any indication, would be thoroughly confused by them--most still double click on web links, for heaven's sake.
Since it takes exactly one menu selection and two clicks into the very simple pref window to enable tabs, and 95% of the people who are interested in using tabs are computer competent enough to take a peek at their preferences anyway (to set their homepage and such), not enabling them by default seems like a smart move to me. The simpler the better, with thanks for making the preference an option at all.
And by the way, the point those guys were making is that Safari is dominant on the Mac (at least, the OSX using portion of us), so if you're interested in supporting the Mac you should make an effort to support Safari as well, which should be painless due to the standards compliance. It's not a requirement, and if you don't want to make any special concessions for the small market that is the Mac, then you can safely ignore Safari, but if you're specifically targeting the Mac a lot of people use it.
Firefox 0.8
I tried Firefox and I think I'll just stick with Safari since I have no issues with it. Firefox really didn't bring anything new for me. The feature that Safari has that no other browser does for me is use iSync to sync my bookmarks with all my Macs. Safari works with my bank too. I just can't see a major reason to switch. I hope Apple continues to improve Safari with features not found with any other browser and think out of the box.
Some sites only work for Windows so I use IE for those Microsoft sites and Safari for everything else on the planet. I am glad there are so many choices for browsers besides Microsoft. I have no problem switching if I see something better than Safari.
I tried Firefox and I think I'll just stick with Safari since I have no issues with it. Firefox really didn't bring anything new for me. The feature that Safari has that no other browser does for me is use iSync to sync my bookmarks with all my Macs. Safari works with my bank too. I just can't see a major reason to switch. I hope Apple continues to improve Safari with features not found with any other browser and think out of the box.
Some sites only work for Windows so I use IE for those Microsoft sites and Safari for everything else on the planet. I am glad there are so many choices for browsers besides Microsoft. I have no problem switching if I see something better than Safari.
safari has serious issues with the javascript engine which i've read will be fixed in tiger. khtml is also a crappy engine to build a browser on. oh and one thing i've noticed with my site is that it doesn't show the correct colors with png files. they're all darker than they should be. ie also seems to have this problem, but firefox and mozilla show the correct colors. png's been out for a while and i wish browsers were better with handling them.
I don't understand people who claim Safari to be the best Mac browser- it can't even download MSN/Hotmail attachments: kb article
I think I'll try some of these alternate browsers.
I think I'll try some of these alternate browsers.
I love both safari and firefox. I keep only those 2 installed. I use firefox about 95% of the time though simply because it scrolls so fast. much faster than safari.
i'm sure others have noticed how much faster firefox can scroll a page.
i'm sure others have noticed how much faster firefox can scroll a page.
Giaguara said:
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2003/03/25/safari.html
Just because of legal issues you "don't like the name change"?
That's kind of arrogant don't you think?
In another Thread I asked the question of compatability with Safari and some web sites. I have since downloaded and tried "OmniWeb 4.5" (had to pay $29.95 and get a free upgrade to 5.0), Camino v. 0.7, and Firefox v. 0.9. Both Camino and Firefox do not recognize Safari when it comes to "importing bookmarks". Camino was the only one that would not crash when I went to "homedepot.com". They all seemed to be equally fast, (I'm not aware of any benchmark apps to prove otherwise). I'm going to dedicate a full test period of each to see which one I feel meets my needs then stick with it, but I will keep the others for back-up.
Sparky's said:
I think I imported my Safari bookmarks into Camino by using the Safari debug menu to export them into an HTML file and then Camino was able to import them... it was awhile ago, but I know I got it to work.
retractment
"Interesting how my post earlier in this thread got yanked (I mean completely wiped out of the forum) and this one stays." disregard this statement, I am blind
PS this preference was reached in 3 clicks = Safari>Preferences>Tabs
PSS also Bookmarks>(scroll to bottom)Open in Tabs = 2 clicks
tace said:
"Interesting how my post earlier in this thread got yanked (I mean completely wiped out of the forum) and this one stays." disregard this statement, I am blind
PS this preference was reached in 3 clicks = Safari>Preferences>Tabs
PSS also Bookmarks>(scroll to bottom)Open in Tabs = 2 clicks
Exporting Safari Bookmarks
Just a point of reference, I finally found out how to export my bookmarks from Safari and set them up for any other browser.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19266
Works like a charm
Since I now have Safari, M$IE, OmniWeb 4.5, Camino 0.7, and FireFox 0.8, as well as Netscape in several versions I wanted to give them all a fair shake. Since Safari was the only one that wouldn't "export" bookmarks you need to go to 3rd party stuff, and it works so easily with "SBE".
Just a point of reference, I finally found out how to export my bookmarks from Safari and set them up for any other browser.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19266
Works like a charm
Since I now have Safari, M$IE, OmniWeb 4.5, Camino 0.7, and FireFox 0.8, as well as Netscape in several versions I wanted to give them all a fair shake. Since Safari was the only one that wouldn't "export" bookmarks you need to go to 3rd party stuff, and it works so easily with "SBE".
Sparky's said:
the "Home Deport" benchmark? When I used Camino on my iBook, it crashed at least 2-3 times from SIMPLE blogs and pretty much "regular" websites. If it crashes from blogs, I can't imagine using this for anything more serious than simple browsing purposes (vs. research or work, when you want to keep multiple tabs open). Firefox, on the other hand, rarely crashes in comparison, and I'm even using a NIGHTLY!
(Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8a) Gecko/20040430 Firefox/0.8.0+ (BlueFyre)
And for the homedepot.com site, shall i post a picture to show you that Firefox does not crash?
For the bookmark issue, would Camino be able to import the .html from Firefox (PC) or vice versa? I mean I can ftp it to my site, but I'm worried bout compatability issues.
About the exporting from safari:
You can always just select them all and drag and drop them to any other bookmarks menu.....
I did it first to Camino, exported the bookmarks from there, and now can load them anywhere I want.
You can always just select them all and drag and drop them to any other bookmarks menu.....
I did it first to Camino, exported the bookmarks from there, and now can load them anywhere I want.
i think it should also be stated the omniweb is safari. right on their website it says this: "Omniweb 4.5 uses the WebCore and JavaScriptCore frameworks from Apple the same technology used in Safari for rendering web pages."
if you know how you use interface builder you could make your own web browser as well. omniweb doesn't even count as another web browser.
if you know how you use interface builder you could make your own web browser as well. omniweb doesn't even count as another web browser.