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Smith288

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2008
1,224
963
Its funny how corporations are bad when they speak about one thing (taxation, regulations, etc etc) and the left freaks out and complains about a company shouldn't be a "person" in terms of rights yet when they do something like this, they get applauded.

Funny thing, these politics. It's like the Ohio weather. Wait a few minutes and it'll change.
 

69650

Suspended
Mar 23, 2006
3,367
1,876
England
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this issue, Apple et al should keep their noses out and get on with running their business. As a shareholder I don't expect them to waste time and money on issues like this. If Apple are worried about human rights maybe they should look a little harder at the practices of their suppliers in China.
 

mlmwalt

macrumors 6502a
Jun 8, 2010
548
1
Philadelphia, Pa, USA
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this issue, Apple et al should keep their noses out and get on with running their business. As a shareholder I don't expect them to waste time and money on issues like this. If Apple are worried about human rights maybe they should look a little harder at the practices of their suppliers in China.

I agree. But I think :apple: thinks that by coming out on this side of the issue that it can gloss over the foreign working conditions by saying: See, we support equality, blah blah blah.
 

macintoshi

macrumors 6502
Dec 11, 2008
336
20
Switzerland
I do say i am against gay marriage in church and it will remain so. But of course gays can marry in a state under theyr law, the religion has nothing todo with the way the state chooses theyr ways and if it chooses bad ways, every bad way will bring them near to an end. As for me personaly i have nothing against gays, as long as they leave me in peace, but certainly in name of sin will no marriage be allowed in our church, greetings
 
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melendezest

Suspended
Jan 28, 2010
1,693
1,579
I feel Apple (or any company, for that matter) should not be getting involved in a moral issue. Especially a moral issue related to sex, the most intimate of all the things we do as a species!!! It is not necessary.

Someone here said no one should care about another person's morality. That we should "live and let live". I disagree; that morality is being taught to others as the truth, like an elementary school teacher would do, for example. Now an individual would have to pick and choose where to send their kids to school, fragmenting our society.

Unfortunately, as we live together we will encounter situations where the definition of what is or isn't immoral becomes relevant, especially in the establishment of laws and the like.

I feel that what people do (consensually) in the privacy of their home is their business. But when it is brought into the public eye the it could, and should, be met with scrutiny and discussion.

Homosexual behavior is sexual deviance. Although it is primarily consensual and relatively harmless, it is still deviance. It is not necessary to ascribe to a religious or even moral point of view to realize this. And as is expected, there may be unpleasant consequences to sexual deviance, should they be made public. In the past, the consequences have been severe, even violent, and without compassion, which brought about a push towards tolerance and acceptance that ignores the "condition" that homosexuals are subject to. Let me explain what I mean:

The purpose and design of the sexual organs is reproduction. They generate pleasure to facilitate and encourage procreation and the generation of human beings. When individuals choose to generate pleasure without procreation then they are deviating from the primary purpose of the organs. Obviously, human procreation requires male and female. As such, homosexual behavior is in direct contravention to the purpose and design of the very organs utilized in the act. Individuals with homosexual tendencies have a severe disconnect of the mind and the body: they feel that they we're born in "the wrong body", so to speak. With this in mind, it seems oxymoronic to say that homosexual behavior is "right" or "acceptable" or "normal", when there is an obvious psychological discrepancy in individuals subject to such behavior.

For me this begs the questions: Just because we can do something, should we do it? What other types of sexual deviance are we going to allow to become acceptable? What consequences, psychological or otherwise are they going to bring upon others?

Our country is going through a time of great change, and this debate will go on for a while. But I feel that the issue is not related to civil rights, as determined by race. The issue is sexual preference; the very word indicates choice. It is impossible for a man to change his race. It is possible to not engage in homosexual behavior. The two are now linked in the general public's perception (or at least the media), but they are nowhere near the same thing. And as a society, this issue can, and does, cause great division. Morality is integrated into societal living, but the society has to agree in what is right and wrong. When societies don't agree, war ensues.

"Live and let live" is just too simplistic a concept, especially for this issue. And companies should not be "taking a position" on issues such as this.
 

Zunjine

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2009
715
0
I feel Apple (or any company, for that matter) should not be getting involved in a moral issue. Especially a moral issue related to sex, the most intimate of all the things we do as a species!!! It is not necessary.

Someone here said no one should care about another person's morality. That we should "live and let live". I disagree; that morality is being taught to others as the truth, like an elementary school teacher would do, for example. Now an individual would have to pick and choose where to send their kids to school, fragmenting our society.

Unfortunately, as we live together we will encounter situations where the definition of what is or isn't immoral becomes relevant, especially in the establishment of laws and the like.

I feel that what people do (consensually) in the privacy of their home is their business. But when it is brought into the public eye the it could, and should, be met with scrutiny and discussion.

Homosexual behavior is sexual deviance. Although it is primarily consensual and relatively harmless, it is still deviance. It is not necessary to ascribe to a religious or even moral point of view to realize this. And as is expected, there may be unpleasant consequences to sexual deviance, should they be made public. In the past, the consequences have been severe, even violent, and without compassion, which brought about a push towards tolerance and acceptance that ignores the "condition" that homosexuals are subject to. Let me explain what I mean:

The purpose and design of the sexual organs is reproduction. They generate pleasure to facilitate and encourage procreation and the generation of human beings. When individuals choose to generate pleasure without procreation then they are deviating from the primary purpose of the organs. Obviously, human procreation requires male and female. As such, homosexual behavior is in direct contravention to the purpose and design of the very organs utilized in the act. Individuals with homosexual tendencies have a severe disconnect of the mind and the body: they feel that they we're born in "the wrong body", so to speak. With this in mind, it seems oxymoronic to say that homosexual behavior is "right" or "acceptable" or "normal", when there is an obvious psychological discrepancy in individuals subject to such behavior.

For me this begs the questions: Just because we can do something, should we do it? What other types of sexual deviance are we going to allow to become acceptable? What consequences, psychological or otherwise are they going to bring upon others?

Our country is going through a time of great change, and this debate will go on for a while. But I feel that the issue is not related to civil rights, as determined by race. The issue is sexual preference; the very word indicates choice. It is impossible for a man to change his race. It is possible to not engage in homosexual behavior. The two are now linked in the general public's perception (or at least the media), but they are nowhere near the same thing. And as a society, this issue can, and does, cause great division. Morality is integrated into societal living, but the society has to agree in what is right and wrong. When societies don't agree, war ensues.

"Live and let live" is just too simplistic a concept, especially for this issue. And companies should not be "taking a position" on issues such as this.

Gay sex has been legal and accepted for decades. Try again.\

Also, just for the lolz, you think gay marriage will lead to "war"? Excellent.
 

bdavis89

macrumors regular
Sep 10, 2009
174
19
Ideally all legal/governmental rights ought to be removed from marriage and moved to civil unions. Let the religious types have "marriages" while the government recognizes civil unions for the legal benefits. I don't see how that's not a win-win. Lets face it, this country is not a "Christian" country anymore, so why gays are pushing for Christian based marriage is beyond me.
 
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chriscrk

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2011
524
1,069
Planet Earth (?)
"Happened by random chance" doesn't sound very plausible to most people, sorry.

It isn't random though. Something happened and there have been a sequence of consequences leading to where we are now.

Science may not have all the answers, but they're figuring it all out.

I find it a shame that, because there is no definate answer yet (but we're clearly on the path), that people will just settle with "all powerful being made everything". Kind of lazy, isn't it?
 

RobNYC

macrumors 6502a
May 28, 2008
562
103
New York, NY
I
The only big difference is the social stigma -- being gay is more socially accepted than persons of color were at that time and they aren't socially segregated. Both still lack certain rights.

Now it is but it was only 8 years ago when states were all passing their gay marriage bans by popular vote.

----------

Marriage was originally a religious institution, which is why Christians defend it so much. Ideally all legal/governmental rights ought to be removed from marriage and moved to civil unions. Let the religious types have "marriages" while the government recognizes civil unions for the legal benefits. I don't see how that's not a win-win. Lets face it, this country is not a "Christian" country anymore, so why gays are pushing for Christian based marriage is beyond me.

Not really. It was a way of joining property and families. Marriage for love is a relatively new thing.
 

APlotdevice

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2011
3,145
3,861
Marriage was originally a religious institution, which is why Christians defend it so much. Ideally all legal/governmental rights ought to be removed from marriage and moved to civil unions. Let the religious types have "marriages" while the government recognizes civil unions for the legal benefits. I don't see how that's not a win-win. Lets face it, this country is not a "Christian" country anymore, so why gays are pushing for Christian based marriage is beyond me.
Marriage was not originally a religious institution. No one really knows why people started getting married, as the concept pre-dates recorded history, but what is clear is that for thousands of years it has been about money and lineage. The church didn't even start to get involved until the 12th century.
 

Zunjine

macrumors 6502a
Jun 26, 2009
715
0
Marriage was originally a religious institution, which is why Christians defend it so much. Ideally all legal/governmental rights ought to be removed from marriage and moved to civil unions. Let the religious types have "marriages" while the government recognizes civil unions for the legal benefits. I don't see how that's not a win-win. Lets face it, this country is not a "Christian" country anymore, so why gays are pushing for Christian based marriage is beyond me.

If marriage can be said to be a religious issue then it certainly wasn't originated by Christians, Jews, Muslims or any other modern religion. Marriage, as in the life pairing of two or more people and the joining of their families, dates back far further than any modern religion. The earliest references to marriage predate written history and come through spoken history in ancient tribes. We know that early, nomadic humans practiced something akin to marriage and had rituals and rites associated with it. Marriage is religious only in the context that religions have sought to make it so.
 

chriscrk

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2011
524
1,069
Planet Earth (?)
See comments in line.

I could write a book saying a bunch of things like that, and some could come true. They're random predictions, and although some might be comparable to events that have happened, I'm sure there are more that haven't happened.
Plus, I don't see how earthquake activity has increased. There have always been earthquakes, lots of them. The fact that now a days they can be properly documented and news about them spreads much faster doesn't mean they have increased in quantity.

And as I said, even if they did find archeological evidence of things that appear in the bible, it doesn't mean everything written there is true. There will obviously be places that truly did exist, that's what they had back when the book was written. But the fact that, I don't know, Solomon's temple exists, doesn't exactly mean that there's a God now, does it?

There isn't intelligent design in science... Intelligent design means someone or something made it. That's not the case here as far as we're concerned. There's no evidence for it. You thinking that there might be intelligent design is another thing, it's a belief, but you don't have anything to support it, no facts.

I don't see how on earth you can say intelligent design is based in science.
Intelligent design says the eye can't be as perfect as it is by random chance, so something must have designed it. Science, evolution, says that it's been a gradual process in which the eye has changed to be the way it is now, adapting to the conditions we've lived through as a species.

So no. They aren't linked.
 

apple_iBoy

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2003
734
495
Philadelphia, PA
The issue aside I am curious why the popular vote from the people of the United States can/should be overturned by a court. How does that represent the people better than the people voting themselves?


The Supreme Court exists to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

I'm amazed at how few people understand this. Either the original poster is not a U.S. citizen, or someone somewhere failed to educate him/her on one of the basic tenets of our democracy.

Mob rule is not always right. Popular vote can shift in a heartbeat and on a whim. This is why we don't have a direct vote on every issue that comes down the pike.
 
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chriscrk

macrumors 6502a
Nov 14, 2011
524
1,069
Planet Earth (?)
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this issue, Apple et al should keep their noses out and get on with running their business. As a shareholder I don't expect them to waste time and money on issues like this. If Apple are worried about human rights maybe they should look a little harder at the practices of their suppliers in China.

Apple is a big company. I'm sure they can keep working properly on their products and support other causes. It's not as if Jonny and his team are going to stop working to go sign some petition.
 

apple_iBoy

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2003
734
495
Philadelphia, PA
Gay marriage? Don't care... except for the fact that gay rights organizations try to punish those who express their sentiment if it is against them. For that alone, I'd vote NO. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any opinion.

Wow.

You "don't have any opinion" and you "don't care," but you'd vote against your fellow citizens' rights just to make a point to "gay rights organizations?" And you're saying they're the ones who "punish" people?!?

Geesh, what a land we live in.
 

APlotdevice

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2011
3,145
3,861
Next step is polygamy.

Anyone who thinks it will stop at gay rights is naive.

My only concern about polygamy is its potential for abuse when it comes to declaring people as dependents. Otherwise, so long as all parties are willing and able to consent, then whatever makes you happy.
 

bdavis89

macrumors regular
Sep 10, 2009
174
19
When gay marriage is legalized, can I use the word "gay" again? When I was growing up in the 90s "gay" just meant stupid or dumb. Then the homosexuals took it because homosexuals was too long of a word I guess.
 

Moyank24

macrumors 601
Aug 31, 2009
4,334
2,454
in a New York State of mind
It's been a long, long time since I've read this much ignorance and ********.

At first, reading through all of this, I felt angry. Angry that those who who pretend to know so much, actually know so little. And then I remember what has happened in the last 6 months. Our President has come out and said that what is being done to us is wrong. During the election, 4 states voted for equality. The coming months - with SCOTUS set to decide on DOMA and Prop 8 - will also be historic for us.

As we move forward as a society, and as people, I can only feel pity for those who have chosen to stand still. And those who have chosen to walk backwards - backwards towards people and a book who tell them what they should believe. We'll look at them as we look at those who spoke out against the abolition fo slavery, women's suffrage, integration, and interracial marriage. There will be no better punishment for such people than to watch the progress that will be made in the coming year. And the coming years.
 

RMo

macrumors 65816
Aug 7, 2007
1,254
281
Iowa, USA
...The problem has typically been that those that do not support Gay marriage are considered to be filled with "hate" and have been the victims of many crimes as a result. Don't believe me? Just look at Chick-Fil-A and what happened with them.

Expressing disagreement is not a hate crime. Neither is boycotting a business.

Their CEO is gay, what would you expect?

We don't know anything about Cook's orientation, and it's none of our business. If he is gay, he is certainly not out. But more importantly, it doesn't matter: as others have mentioned, Apple has held this position since the Jobs days, and it's possible for anyone to support this viewpoint because they think it's the right thing to do, not because they are personally directly affected by it.
 

GermanyChris

macrumors 601
Jul 3, 2011
4,185
5
Here
Anybody else miss Lee?

----------


Yes I do!

It's been a long, long time since I've read this much ignorance and ********.

At first, reading through all of this, I felt angry. Angry that those who who pretend to know so much, actually know so little. And then I remember what has happened in the last 6 months. Our President has come out and said that what is being done to us is wrong. During the election, 4 states voted for equality. The coming months - with SCOTUS set to decide on DOMA and Prop 8 - will also be historic for us.

As we move forward as a society, and as people, I can only feel pity for those who have chosen to stand still. And those who have chosen to walk backwards - backwards towards people and a book who tell them what they should believe. We'll look at them as we look at those who spoke out against the abolition fo slavery, women's suffrage, integration, and interracial marriage. There will be no better punishment for such people than to watch the progress that will be made in the coming year. And the coming years.

IMHO that as well as disdain are the only appropriate feeling for many in this thread.

1 Thread 14 people on my ignore list..
 

Lennholm

macrumors 65816
Sep 4, 2010
1,003
210
For you non-Christians, Christians debate with each other on this gay marriage issue. Not all Christians are judgemental. My feeling is some of God's laws that are easier to accept than others probably factor in to be against Gay marriage. It does make me sad that man is moving away for God's word in our laws even among believers.

"God's" word have never been in law (apart from theocratic societies) and never should be. The values of any particular religion should never be enforced and imposed on everyone else.

"Happened by random chance" doesn't sound very plausible to most people, sorry.

Evolution is not random chance. It works by natural selection, pretty much the opposite of random. I know a lot of people are ignorant about this but that's no excuse.

If i had a dollar for every time a gay compared themselves to black and slavery in this thread, id buy another ipad.

At least it's much more appropriate than comparing homosexuality to insest, pedophilia or bestiality.
 
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