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bagyidaw

macrumors newbie
Dec 11, 2012
11
0
Why would apple deserve 30% for IAP? Apple should just let this non-sense go.
Let developers choose what they kind of payment processing (either IAP or their own) they want.
This kind of thing make me not to want to use apple products.
MS host on their server for skydrive storage and users pay for it. Why is apple involved in it? Shouldn't it be just flat-rate, not 30%.
 
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kingtj

macrumors 68030
Oct 23, 2003
2,606
749
Brunswick, MD
Truth is in the middle, as per usual ....

It might be "ridiculous" for Apple to demand a 30% cut, but they have every right to demand some sort of cut. Otherwise, it amounts to companies like Microsoft getting to distribute their software via Apple's mechanisms, bandwidth and servers at no cost to them, while they get to profit from end-users paying them for using the app. (Not only that, but in cases like SkyDrive, it competes with Apple's own offering - iCloud file storage.)

I agree that 30% is too much though. Apple needs to sit down and re-think this whole thing, IMO, and have two pricing tiers. One for a cut of profits made on commercial app downloads, and a second, lower tier for a cut of money collected in service fees on an initially free downloadable app.


I actually agree with Microsoft, it's ridiclous for Apple to take a 30% cut when that money goes to servers, like that's just wrong and Apple should exclude such things from an updated license.
 

viacavour

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2012
636
0
Give it 2 years and the fees will cut back. Apple are milking it whilst the iPhone is still hot.

Interest in the iPhone has started to wain ever so slightly now that Android has been sorted out to be a lot more useful, and with the likes of the rather decent Samsung Galaxy S3 and Note, Apple finally have some healthy competition.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the fees dropped to 20% within the next couple of years, as a way to keep new developers coming to the platform.

If they target the low end mostly, the apps will most likely be pirated widely. App developers won't be that stupid to jump quickly.

Apple has expanded their stores to 100 more countries couple of weeks back. That's where some of the 30% cut went ! Once Apple is done expanding the digital marketplace worldwide, then they can look at optimization and cost reduction.
 

skinned66

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2011
1,373
1,225
Ottawa, Canada
The screenshots I saw of the MS Office app for iOS had an "sign-up" link in the app too for a Office 365 subscripton. I bet that's not going to fly either. And there's obviously no way MSFT will let :apple: have 30% of that.
 
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viacavour

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2012
636
0
Google Drive offers storage subscriptions outside their app, but they don't seem to have a problem getting Apple to approve their iOS updates.

So why is MS and SkyDrive being targeted?

Because ms broke the rule by offering in-app purchase directly without paying Apple.

30% cut upfront for access to a controlled worldwide digital marketplace is clear cut. I hate companies that try to jack up prices along the way. I have no way to know when they will stop increasing especially if they start to dominate.

I do look forward to a reduced fee in the future when the infrastructure is optimized.
 
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babyj

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2006
586
8
And what's it costing Apple to run Microsoft's servers? Or Netflix? Or Dropbox? The only thing they're responsible for is that initial 15-30 meg download. As has been stated previously, developers already pay Apple for that right.

It's not just the initial download, you've forgotten the downloads to multiple devices (including the Mac iTunes is running on), re-downloading an app and all the updates. It's easy for a single app to be downloaded 10 times a year, one way or the other so that 30Mb is now 300Mb a year.

For the more popular apps you're easily looking at it costing Apple over a million dollars in bandwidth per year per app. Your $99 developer fee would get you the bandwidth from Akamai for a single app to be purchased about 5,000 times.
 

Saladinos

macrumors 68000
Feb 26, 2008
1,845
4
No, it's not. Their store. They conduct the transaction.



"Other people don't do it" isn't a sound argument. The fact is that charging a commission to sell third-party services is a common business arrangement. Essentially, Apple is getting paid for the referral and conducting the transaction.

That isn't the argument - the argument is that Apple no more "conduct the transaction" for an app like Netflix or Skydrive than a browser conducts the transaction if you order a pizza online.

Would you think it's OK if browsers started to take a 30% cut from things like that? Most people (including the ones creating the browsers) would not.
 

paul4339

macrumors 65816
Sep 14, 2009
1,452
735
Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon all have different fee structures ranging from 15%-30% and different dispersal methods to suit their business model. (Google, I think pays some to the carrier). Basically the entrant usually is less % so they can gain market share, and the incumbent is higher %.

So who's right? If 30% is too, is 22.5% fair? Isn't this all just the same argument of how big of a commission/referral a party gets and how well they can negotiate?

.
 

viacavour

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2012
636
0
That isn't the argument - the argument is that Apple no more "conduct the transaction" for an app like Netflix or Skydrive than a browser conducts the transaction if you order a pizza online.

Would you think it's OK if browsers started to take a 30% cut from things like that? Most people (including the ones creating the browsers) would not.

A browser is just an app. AppStore is an ecosystem, from security/anti-piracy, access to worldwide audience, marketing, repeated app download and update, legal fees, ...

The funny thing is MS runs XBL and charges the game developers 30-50K each time the they release a patch regardless of whether the developers made money or not. And that's an order of magnitude smaller than iOS footprint. will they charge 300K-500K for iOS patch if they run the show ? They also prevent developers from releasing apps to other game platforms, which Apple doesn't do.

The cost sharing approach is more scalable. What MS can bargain is a cap with some freebies for Apple though.
 

babyj

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2006
586
8
You're right...when it comes to apps hosted directly by Apple. That's not the issue here. We're talking about things usually handled beyond the app store, being forced to go through it so Apple can get a cut.

Do you all really think Netflix needs to pay Apple 30% of their fees for letting Apple handle their subscription charges? Despite the fact Netflix is already more than capable of handling payment processing, and has a service that works perfectly well outside of the Apple ecosystem?

If you start allowing individual developers to have their own payment processing everything will start to go wrong, it's just the tip of the iceberg. How do you know if the payment processing is secure? Who do you contact if you've got a problem? Who catches the flack if the payment processor gets hacked? Where do you draw the line for having your own payment processing?

More importantly though is that it's the income from all the paid for apps and in app purchases that cover the costs of providing free apps. It's an eco-system that works, take away the income from revenue generating apps and Apple couldn't justify providing free apps. I guess most people see all the cheap hosting packages on offer and think it's all given away - Apple will be paying out hundreds of millions every year to provide free apps.
 
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HenryDJP

Suspended
Nov 25, 2012
5,084
843
United States
If you add up all the man hours it took to create all the apps in the App Store, you'll see that the hosting that apple does is the side that sits on its butt collecting revenue.

And if you added up all the man hours it took Apple to create the AppStore, the model, the R&D and the contracting between them and the developers you'd see that the developers have it better than you think. Why else would the developers adhere to Apple's T&C and pay the 30% if they didn't think they weren't getting a good deal out of it?
 

HenryDJP

Suspended
Nov 25, 2012
5,084
843
United States
Why would apple deserve 30% for IAP? Apple should just let this non-sense go.
Let developers choose what they kind of payment processing (either IAP or their own) they want.
This kind of thing make me not to want to use apple products.
MS host on their server for skydrive storage and users pay for it. Why is apple involved in it? Shouldn't it be just flat-rate, not 30%.

Go ahead, don't use Apple's products. While you're at it, tell the developers (whom you feel deserve to keep all the revenue) to take your credit card and keep it on file for every different app you buy. That way your information will be floating all over the world, just the way you'd want it, I'm sure. ;)
 

Bezetos

macrumors 6502a
May 18, 2012
739
0
far away from an Apple store
Again, no we don't. This is all hearsay.

Microsoft's developers are most likely in talks with Apple right now to see how they can create a proper app which won't be rejected. They probably did NOT upload an update, as they know Apple would reject it.

I know that if I created an app with something questionable in it, I would not just upload it and wait for it to be rejected. I would actually talk to Apple first and find out how I can get it approved before all the time-consuming unnecessary upload/rejection cycles.

It's common sense, unless you're an Apple hater.

So, Mr Common Sense, thank you for pointing out that Microsoft might have discussed the matter with Apple. Now, let's get back to your original comment:

MacRumors is increasingly turning into FOX news. What a misleading article with no facts, just assumptions, and relentless Apple bashing. (...) Has Microsoft actually submitted an app update? We don't know.
Has the article mentioned anything about Microsoft literally physically submitting an app update? No. Is the process of literally physically submitting an app update relevant in this context? No. Has the article mentioned Microsoft's will to update the app, and Apple rejecting that request? Yes.

Anyone using common sense would not think that this article is misleading. What you have done Mr Common Sense, you have manipulated what the article is saying by adding something that hasn't been said or discussed (physically submitting the update) and using this as an argument to criticise the author of this article.

That's Fox News for you.
 

WordMasterRice

macrumors 6502a
Aug 3, 2010
734
100
Upstate NY
No, it's not. Their store. They conduct the transaction.

But they don't, that's the problem. It has nothing to do with Apple's store. People download the app, that is the Apple transaction and if Microsoft sets the app to be free and Apple deems that you can have free apps then that is the extent of Apples involvement.

Apple now wants a cut for nothing. Microsoft built the app, the build the ability to take a payment in their own app. The have the servers to take that payment. This is not like walking into a store and buying a service. Apple is not pitching Skydrive subscriptions, Microsoft is not using Apple's services to bill for the service. You are essentially now saying that if a person buys something via Safari that Apple should be getting a cut of that.
 

Liquorpuki

macrumors 68020
Jun 18, 2009
2,286
8
City of Angels
Why would apple deserve 30% for IAP? Apple should just let this non-sense go.
Let developers choose what they kind of payment processing (either IAP or their own) they want.
This kind of thing make me not to want to use apple products.

They don't but if they didn't charge it, all the devs with pay apps would switch to IAP to dodge the distribution cut. Same thing with 30% sub cuts. Apple doesn't have much of a choice here.

Software with higher price points (IE Desktop software) don't have this problem because it's not easy, necessary or viable to switch your business model from paid to IAP/sub when your software costs $50 and your market isn't crowded. You also have multiple distribution outlets so distributors don't have as much leverage.

Well, this is the ecosystem Apple created that's now the standard for mobile software (at least til the Surface Pro comes out)
 

mw360

macrumors 68020
Aug 15, 2010
2,057
2,458
Has the article mentioned anything about Microsoft literally physically submitting an app update? No. Is the process of literally physically submitting an app update relevant in this context? No. Has the article mentioned Microsoft's will to update the app, and Apple rejecting that request? Yes.

That's why the article deserves criticism. The idea that Apple can reject a request to submit an app is just silly. What form would that even take?

MS need to submit the app with the subs feature removed. If it gets rejected than we'll have a news story.
 

paul4339

macrumors 65816
Sep 14, 2009
1,452
735
You're right...when it comes to apps hosted directly by Apple. That's not the issue here. We're talking about things usually handled beyond the app store, being forced to go through it so Apple can get a cut.

Do you all really think Netflix needs to pay Apple 30% of their fees for letting Apple handle their subscription charges? Despite the fact Netflix is already more than capable of handling payment processing, and has a service that works perfectly well outside of the Apple ecosystem?

I think that Netflix should pay Apple 30% only if it benefits them enough to warrant it . This sounds like a bit of an Apple apologist, but if Netflix isn't getting enough value from giving up 30% cut to the broker, then they should get out of the deal. However, if Netflix was a tiny company that needed the exposure then the 30% is warranted.

Also, I would do not think it is right if iOS has an 80% market share, leaving limited options for Netflix.

.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
1,398
Brazil
While I think the argument here is interesting (that is, whether Apple is morally in the right to demand a 30% cut of not just the initial application price, but ongoing subscription revenue as well), it is also moot. Apple can do what they like and there is nothing illegal about it. If you don't like the thought process, better go get on Android before Google comes full circle and begins implementing the same controls.

Of course Apple can do whatever it wants here. App Store belongs to Apple. As much as Google can do whatever it wants with Google Play and Microsoft, with Windows Store. It's up to developers to accept that or not. You may, of course, raise several moral and legal questions on whether this is acceptable or not, but, in principle, there's nothing wrong with that.

That said, what I can not understand is your statement. You are, in affect, asserting that no large company would be willing to give up 30% on the sale price of a large item to a 3rd party.

Not exactly that.

The 30% Apple charges from developers is a large chunk. For small developers with a virtually unknown application, that's OK, because, if the app becomes successful, it will owe Apple a large stake of its success. The App Store is a platform for distribution of apps that also works as a platform for showcasing them.

Microsoft has a killer app, which is Office. It's a killer app because it's a worldwide standard among business and consumer users alike. Everybody uses Microsot Office, and to have the ability of reading and writing Office files is a must-have for any user.

Microsoft doesn't have to develop an iOS version of Office for it to become successful or even to maintain its hegemony. And Apple doesn't need Microsoft Office for iOS to be wildly popular. However, both companies could benefit from offering Microsoft Office to iOS users. Microsoft would expand Office user base even more, and would kill any alternative for iOS devices. Apple would make iOS a credible offer for business productivity. I could even say that this partnership would be even more beneficial to Apple than to Microsoft: people are already committed to Office and can't just give it away because of legacy compatibility; the iPad, on the other hand, is a neat device that can be immediately replaced for any better device that appears on the market.

There is no point for Microsoft in selling a full version of Office for iOS while giving away 30% to Apple. Microsoft doesn't need App Store to market Office; in fact, one could say that App Store is desperately in need of Office, or of a real, credible alternative (you may see at App Store that a lot of people are fooled into buying Office tutorials and manuals thinking it's the real thing - that's how bad people want it).

That is comical in it's error, even by internet standards. Each and every major development company (Autodesk through Vmware) all give up far more than 30% every day on practically every sale. In fact unless you bought it right from their own web store on their own site (which many companies won't even do), then the reality is that 30~50% of your money did _not_ go to the people who wrote it.

Well, Microsoft doesn't. Microsoft has a killer app which can't be easily replaced, not even by free apps such as OpenOffice or LibreOffice. Microsoft has the power to negotiate the amount of money it gets from each sale of Office, because retailers can't just refuse to sell it. It's just not a regular app. It's the most widely used and bought app in the world.

Given the economic power of both companies, Apple and Microsoft could negotiate a different percentage instead of 30%, or Apple could even give away the 30% fee in order to have Microsoft Office at the App Store. If Apple doesn't do that, users of iPads and iPhones may well live without the highly-desired Office.

It's the way the world works. Everyone needs to eat, and writing the software is no more or less important than any other portion of the chain to get it running in your environment.

Karl P

Yes, and that applies to small developers. They must eat and then they must submit to Apple's wishes. But Microsoft doesn't have to. Microsoft can live without iOS.
 

tasset

macrumors 6502a
May 22, 2007
572
200
Here's a riddle for all the mathematicians who don't think Apple's 30% is fair:
What is fair, 10%? Should Apple ever take a loss for processing and possibly hosting the app data?
For instance I subscribe to Netflix ($7.99/month) through the AppleTV. If Apple was taking a 10% cut for processing they would clear $.80. Well, what if I pay for this sub through iTunes cards which tend to be heavily discounted the last 2 months of the year (as an example OfficeMax during Thanksgiving had iTunes gift cards 25% off). Netflix still gets their $7.19 in this example but Apple takes a loss for doing Netflix the favor of marketing and processing the customer's payment.
The riddle is, how would you make it fair for everyone across the board (otherwise there would be lawsuits you can count on that) without opening up the door for Apple to be gamed and take a loss.
 

rjohnstone

macrumors 68040
Dec 28, 2007
3,902
4,492
PHX, AZ.
That's why the article deserves criticism. The idea that Apple can reject a request to submit an app is just silly. What form would that even take?

MS need to submit the app with the subs feature removed. If it gets rejected than we'll have a news story.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/11/3753968/microsoft-apple-skydrive-discussions-ios-app-rumor

Update: Microsoft has confirmed its latest SkyDrive iOS update is being delayed by Apple. A spokesperson says: "Similar to the experiences of some other companies, we are experiencing a delay in approval of our updated SkyDrive for iOS. We are in contact with Apple regarding the matter and hope to come to a resolution."

That sounds like they SUBMITTED the updated app to me.
Approval process doesn't start until an app is submitted to the process.
 

i.mac

macrumors 6502a
Dec 14, 2007
996
247
I still think the 30% cut is audacious of Apple to ask, but I guess they aren't going to relent. Microsoft will have to do what Amazon did with their Kindle App.

we have been here before. if a person wants to park a car in my turf to sell godies, i'll take 30%. i'll care for the grass and the trash. capitalism, in other words.
 
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