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dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,808
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
The EU just gave 4 months to recover aid to 4 soccer clubs in Spain.

Soccer clubs are heavily indebted so don't have large funds access (unlike Apple) to satisfy the tax bill. The timetable isn't to prevent financial pressure on the core business. Remember this isn't about destroying business but making them pay their tax bill. It's only fair.
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
I doubt the average Apple consumer [in Europe at least] knows who Tim Cook is. I 100% applaud the action but I wouldn't say that it has any impact whether my new laptop is made by Apple or not, for example.

Starbucks? Now that bullet ismore easy to dodge! :D

Tim Cook is always mentioned when Apple are always mentioned in European news (main stream television, newspapers, websites, magazines) when they launch a new iPhone. The letter is also on the front of their website, a bit hard for anyone to ignore the letter on its website front page, and the huge European news coverage this story has currently got. It's everywhere. Who's Tim Cook? Just watch any news channel today.

The EU just gave 4 months to recover aid to 4 soccer clubs in Spain.

I was going by what the news said, but four months could be considered soon, considering the years of court proceedings they will attempt to tie this all up in.
 
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morcutt11

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2015
369
1,189
USA
Pay your ****ing taxes. I pay mine.
They pay what they are told to pay, based on Ireland trying to incentivize them for development there and employment of their people. However, Ireland, as a EU member isn't allowed to do that, hence the issue. They clearly got a deal, but it doesn't appear to be a deal that they asked for. The same thing happens here in the US when cities give big tax incentives to companies to locate their businesses there. While the cities would benefit from the tax revenue, it behoves them to offer a tax break in return for the employment opportunities, land development, and other community benefits.
 

MLVC

macrumors demi-god
Apr 30, 2015
1,603
3,745
Maastricht, The Netherlands
I think a very important part in how Europeans look at this is the fact that Apple is supported by the Ireland itself. That takes away the presumption that Apple dodged the taxes, at least judging by the comments sections on most articles, questioning why Apple is punished, and not Ireland. Either way, I don't think it will hardly have any effect on sales in the EU. The average consumer could care less about this, if they want to buy an iPhone, they will. This will just blow over for the average Joe.
 

draugminaion

macrumors 6502
May 12, 2014
255
205
Rhudaur
Says Ireland used for research and distribution, yet no value is created there.

Yes Apple, logic :rolleyes:
Well yes. Apple Ireland sells an iPhone in the EU, pays the Chinese factory, pays the shippers, pays the salespeople, pays rent for the stores, etc, etc. And pays what is left to Apple California for the intellectual property and R&D and such. Resulting profit : zero.

Apple California makes all the profit, and is owed 40% of that in tax to the US, but doesn't need to pay until it takes the money home.

In the meantime the 6000 or so people working at Apple Ireland pay income tax, VAT, groceries, shopping, rent, mortgage, etc. in Ireland and not somewhere else.
 
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morcutt11

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2015
369
1,189
USA
As I understand the money will have to be collected soon, along its interest which makes it a lot more, and then it sits in a fund that cannot be touched by Apple it Ireland or anyone else whilst they go through the appeals process.

Personally I think Apple firstly being almost fraudulent in its tax payments dodging, and then posting a letter to Europe claiming they are innocent and Ireland was nothing till they showed up, will have lost them some sales.
We shall see though. You don't bite the hand the feeds you which is EXACTLY what Tim Cook has done today by threatening any further EU investment now because of their tax dodging being exposed. That arrogant American attitude doesn't win over European consumers Tim.
I think that you've missed what is going on here:
1) Apple is creating an escrow account on their own to pay what they believe that they will end up owing, if they lose their appeal.
2) Apple paid what Ireland required of them. Ireland gave them tax breaks for the employment and other opportunities that Apple was bring to Ireland. This happens in US cities all of the time. The difference here is that Ireland, as a member of the EU, isn't allowed to do this (hence the UK desiring to leave the EU). The EU loves takes and doesn't believe in tax breaks for companies just because they provide other offsetting or potentially even more benefit to the community than the taxes would.
3) If I was given a tax break in return (officially or unofficially) for my bring jobs and other economic benefits to an area and was told later that the deal was off, you can bet I would second guess holding up my end of the deal. Apple has a lot of options as to where they conduct their operations - they don't have to be bring jobs, renewable energy development, etc. to the EU.
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
I think a very important part in how Europeans look at this is the fact that Apple is supported by the Ireland itself. That takes away the presumption that Apple dodged the taxes, at least judging by the comments sections on most articles, questioning why Apple is punished, and not Ireland. Either way, I don't think it will hardly have any effect on sales in the EU. The average consumer could care less about this, if they want to buy an iPhone, they will. This will just blow over for the average Joe.

As said in this report,the EC is going after these corporations because they have public support, and that I think will affect their sales:

So, the European Commission faces some formidable opponents and may find itself entangled in litigation and diplomatic disputes for years. But it may well believe that it has one powerful lobby behind its campaign - European consumers.

At a time when globalisation and arrogant multinationals are both going right out of fashion - and governments are still imposing austerity policies - the commission believes that giving Apple a bloody nose will win bravos rather than boos from ordinary people who have to pay their taxes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37218692

The average consumer caring is the reason the EC is doing this.
 

MLVC

macrumors demi-god
Apr 30, 2015
1,603
3,745
Maastricht, The Netherlands
As said in this report,the EC is going after these corporations because they have public support, and that I think will affect their sales:

So, the European Commission faces some formidable opponents and may find itself entangled in litigation and diplomatic disputes for years. But it may well believe that it has one powerful lobby behind its campaign - European consumers.

At a time when globalisation and arrogant multinationals are both going right out of fashion - and governments are still imposing austerity policies - the commission believes that giving Apple a bloody nose will win bravos rather than boos from ordinary people who have to pay their taxes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37218692

The average consumer caring is the reason the EC is doing this.

Except the EU itself is hardly popular in the EU itself right now, and it could also come across as "why the hell is the EU interfering in the tax laws of a member state? Shouldn't they have the right to do whatever they want? A lot of people feel the EU is interfering too much. So it could go either way really.
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
I think that you've missed what is going on here:
1) Apple is creating an escrow account on their own to pay what they believe that they will end up owing, if they lose their appeal.
2) Apple paid what Ireland required of them. Ireland gave them tax breaks for the employment and other opportunities that Apple was bring to Ireland. This happens in US cities all of the time. The difference here is that Ireland, as a member of the EU, isn't allowed to do this (hence the UK desiring to leave the EU). The EU loves takes and doesn't believe in tax breaks for companies just because they provide other offsetting or potentially even more benefit to the community than the taxes would.
3) If I was given a tax break in return (officially or unofficially) for my bring jobs and other economic benefits to an area and was told later that the deal was off, you can bet I would second guess holding up my end of the deal. Apple has a lot of options as to where they conduct their operations - they don't have to be bring jobs, renewable energy development, etc. to the EU.

Their are tax breaks and then theirs paying practically zero tax under special arrangements you hope won't be found out, which is illegal. Apple and Ireland breached EU tax laws and regulations under competition rules. And Brexit was not done because of EU tax laws that ensure fair treatment and competition!
 
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apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
Except the EU itself is hardly popular in the EU itself right now, and it could also come across as "why the hell is the EU interfering in the tax laws of a member state? Shouldn't they have the right to do whatever they want? A lot of people feel the EU is interfering too much. So it could go either way really.

You have severely underestimated the attitudes of Europeans towards giant corporations, this is actually a good thing. The EU provides a hell of a lot better consumer laws then America does and no one is complaining about that!
 

TechZeke

macrumors 68020
Jul 29, 2012
2,455
2,289
Dallas, TX
Maybe Tim should update the computer products with that money? He could write it off as a R&D expense. Maybe we could have Macs with technology that is at least current (never mind the premium we pay on top of that because it's Apple made).

Also, no small business gets that benefit, we all are taxed at 35% on profit and also get eaten alive by incredible amounts of paperwork, record keeping, etc. I have zero sympathy. And what is also this social responsibility nonsense Tim is always spouting? I'd rather he just put faster chips in his machines that blathering on all the time - while paying himself 100 million in stock options.

All the more embarrassing for Tim that he can't even half-ass keep the Mac line updated when companies a fraction of a fraction of the size can keep their computers updated 1-2 times a year.
 

Lankyman

macrumors 68020
May 14, 2011
2,083
832
U.K.
They'll honestly make that money back by that time if they actually have to pay. :p

So you think it's a stick out tongue affair that a company with the supposed reputation of Apple has allegedly been evading paying it's taxes with the alleged encouragement of another government for all these years?

This is just one snippet of how this is being reported across Europe. -

Dominic O'Connell, Today business presenter
The current focus is on the size of the bill, but there are even larger issues at stake, including one fundamental question - who really runs the world, governments or giant corporations?

At present, it is difficult to tell. Individual governments appear impotent in their attempts to apply their tax laws to multinationals like Apple. They have systems designed to deal with the movement and sale of physical goods, systems that are useless when companies derive their profits from the sale of services and the exploitation of intellectual property.

In Apple's case, 90% of its foreign profits are legally channelled to Ireland, and then to subsidiaries which have no tax residence. At the same time, countries can scarcely afford not to co-operate when Apple comes calling; it has a stock market value of $600bn, and the attraction of the jobs it can create and the extra inward investment its favours can bring are too much for most politicians to resist.

There is an echo here of the tycoons of the early 20th Century who bestrode America. Andrew Carnegie, Cornelius Vanderbilt and John Rockefeller were judged so powerful that they were almost above the law, something that successive US administrations sought to curb.

The European Commission's attempt to bring Apple to heel is on the surface about tax, but in the end about the power of the multinational and the power of the state. There is more to come; Margrethe Vestager, the Danish commissioner who is leading the charge against Apple, is warming up to take on Google.

Europe versus the giants of corporate America will be a battle royale, and one that will run and run.
 
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winston1236

macrumors 68000
Dec 13, 2010
1,902
319
I don't understand EU tax law. It seems Ireland's own laws says what Apple is doing is legal.



From the BBC website a bit of clarity:

"Member states cannot give tax benefits to selected companies - this is illegal under EU state aid rules," said Commissioner Margrethe Vestager.

The standard rate of Irish corporate tax is 12.5%. The Commissions's investigation concluded that Apple had effectively paid 1% tax on its European profits in 2003 and about 0.005% in 2014.
 

Lankyman

macrumors 68020
May 14, 2011
2,083
832
U.K.
The less tax large companies/corporations pay the more the ordinary person suffers as the less the government has to spend so I cannot understand why anyone would champion the cause of a business/company or individual not paying their taxes.
 
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TechZeke

macrumors 68020
Jul 29, 2012
2,455
2,289
Dallas, TX
So you think it's a stick out tongue affair that a company with the supposed reputation of Apple has allegedly been evading paying it's taxes with the alleged encouragement of another government for all these years?

This is just one snippet of how this is being reported across Europe. -

Dominic O'Connell, Today business presenter
The current focus is on the size of the bill, but there are even larger issues at stake, including one fundamental question - who really runs the world, governments or giant corporations?

At present, it is difficult to tell. Individual governments appear impotent in their attempts to apply their tax laws to multinationals like Apple. They have systems designed to deal with the movement and sale of physical goods, systems that are useless when companies derive their profits from the sale of services and the exploitation of intellectual property.

In Apple's case, 90% of its foreign profits are legally channelled to Ireland, and then to subsidiaries which have no tax residence. At the same time, countries can scarcely afford not to co-operate when Apple comes calling; it has a stock market value of $600bn, and the attraction of the jobs it can create and the extra inward investment its favours can bring are too much for most politicians to resist.

There is an echo here of the tycoons of the early 20th Century who bestrode America. Andrew Carnegie, Cornelius Vanderbilt and John Rockefeller were judged so powerful that they were almost above the law, something that successive US administrations sought to curb.

The European Commission's attempt to bring Apple to heel is on the surface about tax, but in the end about the power of the multinational and the power of the state. There is more to come; Margrethe Vestager, the Danish commissioner who is leading the charge against Apple, is warming up to take on Google.

Europe versus the giants of corporate America will be a battle royale, and one that will run and run.

It was simply a joke. If Apple is breaking the law, they should pay. However, I have far more important things to worry, be serious, and lose sleep about than some big corporation trying to avoid paying taxes.

So :p
 
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MacSince1985

macrumors 6502
Oct 18, 2009
404
295
It's like federal law trumping state law in the US.
Not exactly alike, but similar. EU is less centralized than the US.

When it joined the EU, Ireland agreed to abide by its rules (and benefited greatly in aid to rebuild the country's infrastructure). One of those rules is that a state cannot subsidize companies. This ruling says that the lower tax rate Apple pays is equivalent to subsidies.

Technically, it's Ireland that broke the rule. But Apple has deeper pockets.
 

The Mercurian

macrumors 68020
Mar 17, 2012
2,153
2,440
I don't understand EU tax law. It seems Ireland's own laws says what Apple is doing is legal.

It's like federal law trumping state law in the US.

Nope. The Irish government that made the deal with Apple broke its own rules and EU rules by giving Apple a special deal. The EU is pulling both Apple and the Irish government up on it.
 

FrozenInferno

macrumors 6502
Oct 27, 2013
272
268
"I don't care how illegal it is, what happens to my wallet?" - Apple shareholders. Gotta love em'...
 
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