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buffalo

macrumors 65816
Jun 5, 2005
1,085
2
Tacoma, WA
Another vote for the smaller notebook. I would love something nice and small that's does the basic things: internet, Word, iTunes, iPhoto. I wouldn't mind a Macbook, and am thinking about getting one next year but would love to have something in the 11-12" range possibly under 4 pounds.

How much would something like this likely cost? Even if it's not flash.
 

drlunanerd

macrumors 68000
Feb 14, 2004
1,698
178
Vista feature

If this is anything like ReadyBoost in Vista, then all it does is augment your main RAM. If you're lacking in that department it can help performance, but if you've already got plenty then it doesn't make much difference.

As the Intel Macs already boot super-quick, and the Mac's wake from sleep has always been far faster and more reliable than Windows's, I'm not that bothered about this.
 

danielwsmithee

macrumors 65816
Mar 12, 2005
1,135
410
brianus said:
I keep seeing articles like this. Don't really understand how it would work at a filesystem level. What would this do the the notion of "startup disks"? Would MacBooks ship with a special version of OS X where the OS was on flash but user and app directories were on the hard drive? Would you see multiple volumes? I'm surprised never to see these issues brought up when there's a discussion of using NAND in laptops.
The hardware could be designed to shield any knowledge of this from the software/OS. It works in conjunction with the hard-drive much like your 8MB / 16MB ram cache on your Hard-drive works now. The advantage is that for the most commonly read items (256 MB) the HD seek time would be completely eliminated. Data throughput of Flash is not much better than a HD, but it is instantly addressable. The HD firmware will likely take care of all the details associated with this. The CPU/OS will simply ask for the data the same way it does now it will just get it sooner.
 

danielwsmithee

macrumors 65816
Mar 12, 2005
1,135
410
drlunanerd said:
If this is anything like ReadyBoost in Vista, then all it does is augment your main RAM. If you're lacking in that department it can help performance, but if you've already got plenty then it doesn't make much difference.

As the Intel Macs already boot super-quick, and the Mac's wake from sleep has always been far faster and more reliable than Windows's, I'm not that bothered about this.
It will also allow for much better battery usage as the HD will have to spin up much less often. This will give a decent performance improvement for all tasks because it will eliminate the HD seek time on many files.
 

enda1

macrumors member
Jul 25, 2006
75
3
Ireland
^
|
What he said. ;)

Edit: Damn it!! The post above that one, #28. I should just delete this shouldn't I....
 

k8to

macrumors newbie
Aug 17, 2006
17
0
storage said:
Don't panic said:
good news. i had wondered for a while why they don't start using flash memory. with the sizes they have now it should be doable, at least in parallel to regular hard drives, which can act as a internal back up/storage system.

Because they can only be used for X erase/write cycles.

With modern flash devices which implement on-device wear levelling, and the usage patterns employed by operating systems, your hard drive will most likely fail long before the number of write cycles will exceed the longevity of your flash device.

Swapping to flash without wear levelling would probably manage to break flash on a very active machine, but no one is going to deploy that.
 

danielwsmithee

macrumors 65816
Mar 12, 2005
1,135
410
iBookG4user said:
64GB Flash memory drives are avaliable now albeit at a high price.
I've seen a 3TB flash drive at work. Of course it was being made for a satellite and cost many millions of dollars.
 

storage

macrumors 6502
Jun 4, 2005
275
0
k8to said:
With modern flash devices which implement on-device wear levelling, and the usage patterns employed by operating systems, your hard drive will most likely fail long before the number of write cycles will exceed the longevity of your flash device.

Swapping to flash without wear levelling would probably manage to break flash on a very active machine, but no one is going to deploy that.
Thanks for clearing that up (y).
 

k8to

macrumors newbie
Aug 17, 2006
17
0
One achievable advantage of adding solid state storage is the dramatic improvement in performance of 'journalled' systems.

In journalled/transactional systems, such as databases, journalled filesystems, there are choke points in the performance where you must be assured that certain flags hit the disks before and in between other data chunks. This can involve I/O-dampening seeks and cache flushes for hardware that doesn't support I/O barriers (typical desktop level disks). With the addition of solid-state storage, you can write the transactional flags to the solid state device instantly without the concern over write-caches which will lose data on power-off.

Thus HFS+ with journalling could perform significantly better by taking advantage of a small amount of the flash space. Databases could also improve, although this is less typically a desktop type activity.

One thing I don't really understand is the proposal to spin up the hard drive less often. Typical machines these days have around a gigabyte of RAM, which can be used to buffer both reads and writes. How would adding 256 megs of flash help greatly?

One problem I see on Linux for example is that the journalled filesystem implementations write to the disk periodically, regardless of whether any I/O activity is occurring. Perhaps this could help with such an area.

-------

To those discussing executing out of flash, it's too slow. The read speeds from flash are so much slower than RAM, that no one is going to want to do this for any sort of significant amount of executable code. Additionally, since you cannot put varible segments of programs (heap, data, bss segments) in flash, there is no real prospect for "instant on" by adding significant flash to the system. However, as demonstrated by the article linked, the lack of seek-delay in solid state storage can accelerate seek-bounded I/O tasks, like booting.
 

danielwsmithee

macrumors 65816
Mar 12, 2005
1,135
410
k8to said:
One thing I don't really understand is the proposal to spin up the hard drive less often. Typical machines these days have around a gigabyte of RAM, which can be used to buffer both reads and writes. How would adding 256 megs of flash help greatly?

Ram does buffer your hard-drive access. Often however applications regularly flush their buffers so that the state of whatever you are working on is saved to some form of non-volatile memory HD. In case the system goes down or the application crashes. It could be possible to locate these items in flash and prevent the necessity of using the HD. A good example of this used in almost every application is error logs. They are written to quite often and are by definition never buffered. A lot depends on the size of flash used, and whether you would prefer to use your flash memory to improve boot time or improve battery life. There will be trade offs.
 

k8to

macrumors newbie
Aug 17, 2006
17
0
Grah, remember to check for success on error before hitting post again.
 

babyj

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2006
586
8
My understanding of the nand memory was that it would in effect by another level of cache, between the processor and the hard drive. I was also under the impression it would be Gb's rather than Mb's - Sandisk stated they had already started production of 8Gb nand memory for use in PC systems.

One of the hard drive manufacturers (Samsung I think) has announced plans to do produce hybrid drives with nand cache within the actual hard drive unit.

Nand isn't as fast as main ram but it is a lot faster than hard drives whilst using a lot less power. It isn't just for laptops either, it'll be fitted to desktops as well.

Nand is a lot cheaper than main ram so it could be a good way to almost increase main ram at a far lower price. It would work even better if you could easily access and replace the nand, upgrading it as prices continue to fall.

I'd be very surprised if Apple don't fit it as standard as 1Gb isn't going to add much to the costs. I'd of thought they'll do it asap as well, once Santa Rosa is ready - with OS support in Leopard.
 

k8to

macrumors newbie
Aug 17, 2006
17
0
danielwsmithee said:
Ram does buffer your hard-drive access. Often however applications regularly flush their buffers so that the state of whatever you are working on is saved to some form of non-volatile memory HD. In case the system goes down or the application crashes. It could be possible to locate these items in flash and prevent the necessity of using the HD. A good example of this used in almost every application is error logs. They are written to quite often and are by definition never buffered. A lot depends on the size of flash used, and whether you would prefer to use your flash memory to improve boot time or improve battery life. There will be trade offs.

How does an application flushing its buffers matter? The semantics of fflush and so on are simply "this data had better be operating-system visible when this call completes". Whether the data goes instantly to the disk or not is completely under operating system control at least for normal C / POSIX / etc semantics.

The operating system is free to buffer the data in memory as long as it feels like, balancing issues like performance vs battery life vs robustness. On a laptop, using a very large amount of ram to buffer the data for a long time is a good idea, because the system cannot lose power unexpectedly in most circumstances.

------

Edit: I should add that operating systems do provide calls (cf. fsync) for explicitly requesting that the data written to a file be committed to disk, because applications like mailservers and databases require this sort of thing.

However, normal applications do not and should not use this type of functionality.
 

bigandy

macrumors G3
Apr 30, 2004
8,852
7
Murka
Macrumors said:
they may go into an "ultra-portable" laptop by Macworld San Francisco in January, 2007.

oh, cheers, make my MBP purchase in the next few weeks look like an out of date lettuce.
 

Cinch

macrumors 6502
Sep 18, 2005
479
2
babyj said:
My understanding of the nand memory was that it would in effect by another level of cache, between the processor and the hard drive. I was also under the impression it would be Gb's rather than Mb's - Sandisk stated they had already started production of 8Gb nand memory for use in PC systems.

I think one of the disadvantage with flash NAND storage is its ability to write (~100,000 times max). You may wonder how many time do we need to save a word file, but storage space management are done all the time with OSX with or without our knowledge. Similar to what you said, a good 8GB of NAND in a Macbook is good (4GB for OSX and the rest for other applications).

I think MRAM is on the horizon and it promises to be better than RAM, hard disk and flash combine.

Cinch
 

QuarterSwede

macrumors G3
Oct 1, 2005
9,785
2,033
Colorado Springs, CO
Cinch said:
I think one of the disadvantage with flash NAND storage is its ability to write (~100,000 times max). You may wonder how many time do we need to save a word file, but storage space management are done all the time with OSX with or without our knowledge. Similar to what you said, a good 8GB of NAND in a Macbook is good (4GB for OSX and the rest for other applications).

I think MRAM is on the horizon and it promises to be better than RAM, hard disk and flash combine.

Cinch
The problem with MRAM is that its still too slow.
 

k8to

macrumors newbie
Aug 17, 2006
17
0
QuarterSwede said:
The problem with MRAM is that its still too slow.

Is this in terms of some practical part? My understanding is that MRAM should be faster than DRAM, making the overall speed of reads and writes of solid state storage types in the order from fastest to slowest: SRAM, MRAM, DRAM, ... (long gap)..., flash.

At least that's what my memory of this stuff is and also what loser-pedia says.

Are there practical implementation issues that make this currently false, or is it false in general?
 

generik

macrumors 601
Aug 5, 2005
4,116
1
Minitrue
Wow reading these drooling posts makes me want to wait till MWSF instead, if anything the free iLife suite is worth it :cool:
 

DVNIEL

Cancelled
Oct 28, 2003
949
579
Bring on the final piece to Apple's marketing matrix!

Mac Mini -- iMac -- Mac Pro

_______ -- Macbook -- Macbook Pro


MacBook Mini!!! (or even Nano) =)
 

conradzoo

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2005
107
0
At work booting is or me:

light a cigaret or get a coffee or say hello o that girl from sales or just yawn, stretch my legs and arms....

I dont care about 10 secs oe whatever less. Nah.
 

tjwett

macrumors 68000
May 6, 2002
1,880
0
Brooklyn, NYC
nice! just what i've been waiting for. i'm hanging on to my 12" PB until something even smaller comes along. i'd love an ultra slim portable, even without an optical drive. i've had my 12" for 6 months now and i've yet to use the optical drive. bring on the tiny laptops!
 

jhande

macrumors 6502
Sep 20, 2006
305
0
Denmark
I couldn't care less about the boot speed, nor whether it has oodles of GB. 30+GB of user space is fine by me. What I _do_ care about is:

Battery life
Weight
Size

And did I mention battery life? :D
 

k8to

macrumors newbie
Aug 17, 2006
17
0
jhande said:
I couldn't care less about the boot speed, nor whether it has oodles of GB. 30+GB of user space is fine by me. What I _do_ care about is:

Battery life
Weight
Size

And did I mention battery life? :D

Yeah, I'm an idiot. What i didn't realize is that flash takes no power to store data, so it's more efficient than hard drives or RAM for inactive storage.

I wonder what the profiles of flash power use are on write vs HD and RAM. I'd suspect lower than HD, higher than RAM. Thus, as a 256MB data cache or whatever, it should win on a laptop in terms of power use.
 

MacinDoc

macrumors 68020
Mar 22, 2004
2,268
11
The Great White North
generik said:
Wow reading these drooling posts makes me want to wait till MWSF instead, if anything the free iLife suite is worth it :cool:
Or you could wait for Leopard to be released and get that free, too...

Actually, I think that's what I'll do - buy a 24" iMac in Q1 2007 after Leopard comes out.

As for this flash RAM, I agree with those who say that the primary benefit may be less power use due to reduced HD access at bootup - boot time shouldn't be much of an issue if you don't have to reboot very often. Still, I don't think it will make much of a difference overall, and I would't delay buying a MacBook just to wait for this feature.
 
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