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MadeMyDay

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Sep 13, 2016
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Apple has been ordered to pay more than $302 million in damages for using VirnetX Holding Corp's patented internet security technology in its FaceTime platform without permission.

Article Link: Apple Ordered to Pay $302 Million in Damages to VirnetX in Patent Retrial
It's about time to call in the patent troll exterminator.
 
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Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Can Apple stay out of court for at least year with no lawsuits ?

You could place fault on the inventor for not making the infringer aware of the patent and negotiating before the infringing product was released, but that makes it too easy for an infringer to put their hands over their ears and pretend they never heard about it.

Doesn't really matter which side u do it on, before, or after a products has been released *if* the infringer is gonna lie anyway. Doesn't make it any more secure.
 

kgtenacious

macrumors regular
Jun 15, 2010
109
76
Everybody keeps screaming "patent troll" about this case. There are a lot of patent trolls out there, but VirtenX isn't one of them, it's a group of engineers and computer scientists who left SAIC and got to take their patents with them.

Apple should feel fortunate that it's only $302.4 million. The original award was $625.6 million, but those "patent troll loving courts" in Texas struck that down. Then they were awarded $368 million, but, again, those "patent troll loving courts" in Texas struck that one down, too. Now it's $302.4 million.

Pick your battles, there's a lot wrong with the patent system and a lot wrong with patent trolls, but this isn't one of those examples.
 
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Sandybox

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2016
145
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The problem is, the original idea of patents was that you could invent something novel, draw up the designs and send them to the patent office, and you would be granted a period of time during which you could implement and sell real physical devices from your design, without worrying that someone would simply copy your design and compete against you. This was a worthwhile and worthy notion. In exchange for the government granting you this protection, your idea was on file and available to the public, and after your period of exclusivity ran out, others could use your design as blueprints for making their own copies of your device. As well, the time periods for exclusivity and such were chosen when we didn't have the ability to have something mass produced and on every store shelf nationwide two weeks later. When it could take years for simply the knowledge that someone had invented a new can opener, or whatever, to spread across the nation.

These days, the "patent trolls" are quite literally gaming the system. The game is, "just how wide-ranging and vague of an idea can we get the Patent Office to give us a patent for?" And they get patents granted for some pretty vague ideas, like the concept of encrypting messages between computers. Not a specific implementation, but the whole general concept. When any decently capable programmer, faced with the same problem, would have implemented a solution very similar to the one that's patented. Not because they looked at the patented design, but because the solution was somewhere between obvious and inevitable - the exact opposite of novel, as is fundamental to the idea of patents and theoretically required by our patent system.

Then the trolls sit back and wait for someone else to do the hard work of actually making an implementation of the obvious idea work and work well, where the implementors had no knowledge of the patent, and they jump in and say, "Aha! We have a patent on that entire field of ideas! Pay up!" It's gaming a system to extract money from others, rather than using the system as intended to allow actual inventors to profit from their actual inventions. And it's putting whole ranges of obvious solutions to problems out of bounds, because someone got the Patent Office to grant them a vague patent that they can argue covers an entire area of research. This is harmful to society as a whole.

To be clear, I'm not saying patents are bad, I'm saying patent trolls are bad. Letting them game the system to take whole ranges of obvious solutions to problems off the table, hurts us all.
I wonder if anyone has ever analysed the patent portfolio of Apple to determine the number of vague ideas/software concepts patents it holds? On this website I regularly see patents being awarded to Apple that fall into the obvious and trivial class.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
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Yikes! Even more egregious than I'd expected. A bunch of patent troll companies that are clearly just maintaining some address in the area so they can file lawsuits in the jurisdiction. I'd really like to see the DoJ decree, "East Texas, you've lost your ability to handle any cases of this kind, at least for the next ten years" - those companies wouldn't all be there unless that court in particular was treating them highly favorably, so the court has clearly lost their impartiality.
East Texas is the Ireland of patents.
 
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BugHunter

macrumors member
Mar 18, 2007
59
82
What is it people have against "patent trolls"? So what if they have no product. Is making the product the hard part or coming up with the idea the hard part. If people think making the product is the hard part, then why are those same people angry when Samsung has a smartphone that looks like an iPhone?

I see a comment like this on every patent issue here. It's a fair question but I'll give my reason on what's wrong with patent trolls, (especially software patent trolls):

Software patents are given out way too easily, all to often they just describes an existing process and put "with computers" or "via the internet" on the end.

Due to the very low bar for software patents, every big software company violates every other big software companies patents, because it is near impossible to write software that doesn't.

As a result, company A wont sue company B using a low quality patent, because company A most likely has a product that violates company B's patents and will get counter-sued. Mutually assured destruction is what normally stops bad patents being abused.

IF we now introduce company C, who doesn't make any products, they can sue everyone with no fear of retaliation. They are finally free to abuse the super broken system by hurting companies that actually contribute to society.

If patents were of an extremely high quality and lasted for much less than 20 years (several lifetimes in the tech world) it would all be good. As it stands, string a bunch of words together and the patent office will give you the right to sue someone. It's not a system for rewarding innovation, it's a system for letting entities own the obvious.
I'm sure there are a bunch of legitimate patents out there, but they're rarely the ones you see in court cases.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,984
11,735
The sheer variety of verdicts in this case is astounding. Which is more like nailing Jello to the wall? Patents or patent verdicts?
I think one begets the other. "Here's an arcane description of technology our PhD's spent years developing. Members of the Jury, and Aunt Edna, is it the same as the technology their PhD's spent years developing?"
 

macfacts

macrumors 601
Oct 7, 2012
4,792
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The problem is, the original idea of patents was that you could invent something novel, draw up the designs and send them to the patent office, and you would be granted a period of time during which you could implement and sell real physical devices from your design, without worrying that someone would simply copy your design and compete against you. This was a worthwhile and worthy notion. In exchange for the government granting you this protection, your idea was on file and available to the public, and after your period of exclusivity ran out, others could use your design as blueprints for making their own copies of your device. As well, the time periods for exclusivity and such were chosen when we didn't have the ability to have something mass produced and on every store shelf nationwide two weeks later. When it could take years for simply the knowledge that someone had invented a new can opener, or whatever, to spread across the nation.

These days, the "patent trolls" are quite literally gaming the system. The game is, "just how wide-ranging and vague of an idea can we get the Patent Office to give us a patent for?" And they get patents granted for some pretty vague ideas, like the concept of encrypting messages between computers. Not a specific implementation, but the whole general concept. When any decently capable programmer, faced with the same problem, would have implemented a solution very similar to the one that's patented. Not because they looked at the patented design, but because the solution was somewhere between obvious and inevitable - the exact opposite of novel, as is fundamental to the idea of patents and theoretically required by our patent system.

Then the trolls sit back and wait for someone else to do the hard work of actually making an implementation of the obvious idea work and work well, where the implementors had no knowledge of the patent, and they jump in and say, "Aha! We have a patent on that entire field of ideas! Pay up!" It's gaming a system to extract money from others, rather than using the system as intended to allow actual inventors to profit from their actual inventions. And it's putting whole ranges of obvious solutions to problems out of bounds, because someone got the Patent Office to grant them a vague patent that they can argue covers an entire area of research. This is harmful to society as a whole.

To be clear, I'm not saying patents are bad, I'm saying patent trolls are bad. Letting them game the system to take whole ranges of obvious solutions to problems off the table, hurts us all.


You wrote a lot and described the patent system but what exactly is the problem? The ability to patent software? The length of exclusivity/ownership of the patent? The ability for the patent owner to do nothing with the patent?

Your dislike of patent trolls leads me to guess you think that the owner of a patent doing nothing is a bad idea. Patents are a form of property. Do you dislike it if a classic car owner keeps his car in his garage? He isn't using it, even tho he paid for it, so Tim can go and steal his car?

Patent trolls paid for the patents. They can do whatever they want with it.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
8,984
11,735
I see a comment like this on every patent issue here. It's a fair question but I'll give my reason on what's wrong with patent trolls, (especially software patent trolls):

Software patents are given out way too easily, all to often they just describes an existing process and put "with computers" or "via the internet" on the end.

Due to the very low bar for software patents, every big software company violates every other big software companies patents, because it is near impossible to write software that doesn't.

As a result, company A wont sue company B using a low quality patent, because company A most likely has a product that violates company B's patents and will get counter-sued. Mutually assured destruction is what normally stops bad patents being abused.

IF we now introduce company C, who doesn't make any products, they can sue everyone with no fear of retaliation. They are finally free to abuse the super broken system by hurting companies that actually contribute to society.

If patents were of an extremely high quality and lasted for much less than 20 years (several lifetimes in the tech world) it would all be good. As it stands, string a bunch of words together and the patent office will give you the right to sue someone. It's not a system for rewarding innovation, it's a system for letting entities own the obvious.
I'm sure there are a bunch of legitimate patents out there, but they're rarely the ones you see in court cases.
There's something to this, but I still think this points more to problems with the patent system than with the trolls. They're destabilizing, but you have to expect such organizations to exist and have to have the system structured to not be so vulnerable to narrow interests.
[doublepost=1475381045][/doublepost]
You wrote a lot and described the patent system but what exactly is the problem? The ability to patent software? The length of exclusivity/ownership of the patent? The ability for the patent owner to do nothing with the patent?

Your dislike of patent trolls leads me to guess you think that the owner of a patent doing nothing is a bad idea. Patents are a form of property. Do you dislike it if a classic car owner keeps his car in his garage? He isn't using it, even tho he paid for it, so Tim can go and steal his car?

Patent trolls paid for the patents. They can do whatever they want with it.
I agree with all of this, but I think one of the problems is that the cost of court fees and the inconsistent outcomes becomes a game of Russian Roulette. It's not just trolls that use this method, big companies use it against small companies just as potently. "You could spend millions defending this for years and wind up having the courts fine you millions more, or you could just give us a few million today and we'll let it go."

Even if you know you're in the right, you may not have the resources to defend yourself, or you may look at it and say I've got a good chance of losing hundreds of millions because of a roll of the dice and a bad court judgement.

It can become a protection racket...
 
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macfacts

macrumors 601
Oct 7, 2012
4,792
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Cybertron
I see a comment like this on every patent issue here. It's a fair question but I'll give my reason on what's wrong with patent trolls, (especially software patent trolls):

Software patents are given out way too easily, all to often they just describes an existing process and put "with computers" or "via the internet" on the end.

Due to the very low bar for software patents, every big software company violates every other big software companies patents, because it is near impossible to write software that doesn't.

As a result, company A wont sue company B using a low quality patent, because company A most likely has a product that violates company B's patents and will get counter-sued. Mutually assured destruction is what normally stops bad patents being abused.

IF we now introduce company C, who doesn't make any products, they can sue everyone with no fear of retaliation. They are finally free to abuse the super broken system by hurting companies that actually contribute to society.

If patents were of an extremely high quality and lasted for much less than 20 years (several lifetimes in the tech world) it would all be good. As it stands, string a bunch of words together and the patent office will give you the right to sue someone. It's not a system for rewarding innovation, it's a system for letting entities own the obvious.
I'm sure there are a bunch of legitimate patents out there, but they're rarely the ones you see in court cases.

I agree software patents are a problem but that is a different problem and not related to "patent trolling"
 

dilbert99

macrumors 68020
Jul 23, 2012
2,193
1,829
What is it people have against "patent trolls"? So what if they have no product. Is making the product the hard part or coming up with the idea the hard part. If people think making the product is the hard part, then why are those same people angry when Samsung has a smartphone that looks like an iPhone?

Because they are often awarded patents for silly things, prior art, obvious things, extensions to obvious things and things that should not be allowed to be patented like breathing...
 
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RedDogRER

macrumors newbie
Nov 4, 2013
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Merritt Island, FL
What is it people have against "patent trolls"? So what if they have no product. Is making the product the hard part or coming up with the idea the hard part. If people think making the product is the hard part, then why are those same people angry when Samsung has a smartphone that looks like an iPhone?


I have an idea for a teleporter. Oh you just figured out how to actually make it and sell it? Pay me.
I have an idea for a way to securely send a message over the internet. Oh you figured out a way to implement it and make it a reality? Pay me.
I have an idea for a device that connects other devices over a wireless system. Oh you figured out how to do it and make it actually work? Pay me.

I'm glad I have all these ideas, much easier than actually designing, building, figuring out how to mass produce, and sell.
 

macfacts

macrumors 601
Oct 7, 2012
4,792
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I have an idea for a teleporter. Oh you just figured out how to actually make it and sell it? Pay me.
I have an idea for a way to securely send a message over the internet. Oh you figured out a way to implement it and make it a reality? Pay me.
I have an idea for a device that connects other devices over a wireless system. Oh you figured out how to do it and make it actually work? Pay me.

I'm glad I have all these ideas, much easier than actually designing, building, figuring out how to mass produce, and sell.

You forgot step 2, patent your invention. Also remember, patents don't last forever.

And if you think making the product and selling is the hard work, why is Apple allowed to sue Samsung? Samsung is making and selling stuff, the hard work according to you.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
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I have an idea for a teleporter. Oh you just figured out how to actually make it and sell it? Pay me.
I have an idea for a way to securely send a message over the internet. Oh you figured out a way to implement it and make it a reality? Pay me.
I have an idea for a device that connects other devices over a wireless system. Oh you figured out how to do it and make it actually work? Pay me.

I'm glad I have all these ideas, much easier than actually designing, building, figuring out how to mass produce, and sell.
Patents have some specific requirements before they are allowed. You can't just have an idea for something-- you have to "teach" the idea and "show enablement". Meaning you need to explain how to do it, and that the technologies exist to do it (faster than light motorcycles can't be part of your invention, for example).

Granted the patent office isn't perfect at screening these things out (see: perpetual motion) but you can't just say "I have an idea, pay me".
 

macUser2007

macrumors 68000
May 30, 2007
1,506
203
Win some, lose some, overall Apple is winning.

Maybe Apple should have sought permission and saved itself a headache.

Apple is fighting this tooth and nail to show other potential real victims and trolls that they should not pick a fight with a 1000 lbs gorilla.

Ironically, Apple is ultra-litigious and a major patent troll.
 
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CarlJ

macrumors 604
Feb 23, 2004
6,976
12,140
San Diego, CA, USA
You wrote a lot and described the patent system but what exactly is the problem? The ability to patent software? The length of exclusivity/ownership of the patent? The ability for the patent owner to do nothing with the patent?

Your dislike of patent trolls leads me to guess you think that the owner of a patent doing nothing is a bad idea. Patents are a form of property.

No, you're entirely missing my point. It isn't that they're not making the thing covered by the patent, it's that they have been given a patent that never should have been granted in the first place. This happens in two general ways, in relation to software (likely in other fields as well, but software is what I'm familiar with):

1. Patents being granted that are not for unique, novel, inventions, they are, instead, for an obvious next step, which any software developer, presented with a given problem, would have devised.

2. Patents being granted for overly broad ideas - someone makes a car (not the first car), and gets granted a patent which either does cover, or which they repeatedly argue in court (at great expense to others) covers/ought-to-cover pretty much anything that uses wheels in any manner, making it impossible for anyone to make things that use wheels without either paying them royalties or successfully defeating them in court. Selling dogfood is not novel, selling things on the internet is not novel, but someone was the first to sell dogfood on the internet - should they be granted a government enforced exclusive monopoly on selling dogfood on the internet for 20 years?

You're saying patents are a form of property. Yes, they are. They are essentially property that the government is conjuring out of thin air: in a lawless society, someone could invent something unique and novel and someone else could make exact copies, trading off the inventor's hard work, sell the copies for a nickel less with catchier advertising, and put the inventor out of business.

Patents are a way to prevent that - it is society saying, "because we want to encourage such innovation, we are going to protect the inventor, by manufacturing for them an artificial piece of property: their idea is now uncopyable, by way of government decree, rather than mere difficulty, thus granting them exclusive use of their invention for a period of time. In return, they must document their invention, and after their time period expires, others will be able to freely use the idea, thus furthering the technological progress of society overall."

This property that the government is conjuring up is quite valuable - granting the recipient a temporary monopoly on the use of an idea - and should not be handed out irresponsibly. If the invention really is novel and non-obvious, then the inventor deserves this valuable grant of exclusivity from the government, and they can do whatever they want with it (manufacture the item, or sell the patent, or hang it on their mantle and polish it every day, whatever), during their temporary period of exclusivity. This contributes to the betterment of society: the inventor has been encouraged to invent genuinely new things, and the collection of useful inventions in the society increases over time. If, on the other hand, the government hands out what are essentially monopolies on ideas like "the number 3", "the letter e", or "selling dog food on the internet", which are neither novel nor unobvious, then this harms society as a whole, merely to enrich the person who had the good luck to secure the ridiculous patent. In such a case, the patent should never have been granted in the first place.

Unfortunately, the US Patent Office has proven itself, over time, almost entirely incapable of evaluating patent applications on software in a reasonable manner, so we've ended up with a whole lot of patents granted - valuable artificial properties manufactured and given away by the government, granting monopolies on ideas - that should have never existed in the first place.

Do you dislike it if a classic car owner keeps his car in his garage? He isn't using it, even tho he paid for it, so Tim can go and steal his car?
Uh, what? How on earth did you get the impression that I might think anything like this? Are you confusing me with someone else? I don't, for the record, think this. Someone owns a car, classic or otherwise, they can do whatever they want with it, so long as it's legal and they don't hurt anyone else.
 
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Ciclismo

macrumors 6502a
Jun 15, 2010
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Germany
Look at all these apple sheep. "Waaaaa waaa Apple did not wrong, they are the reared ever...these are just trolls...waaaaaa waaaa"


Nope. Apple was caught stealing....AGAIN
I think the general frustration is more to do with the fact that this has become such an accepted method of generating huge amounts of income, whilst also crushing many small companies and possibly scaring off many individuals who wanted to actually create something but are afraid that some faceless entity that has stacked the legal odds in their favour can swoop in and devastate them financially.

One of the developers at my workplace has put off publicly releasing some of his privately created apps because of the Google Play Store lawsuits going around.

Then there's the fact that these lawsuit costs are rolled over on the customer - every time you buy a gadget or software, chances are part of that money goes straight into the pockets of entities whose SOLE purpose is to make money through litigation.
 
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Gorms

macrumors 6502a
Aug 30, 2012
560
1,516
UK
Did you protect it? Did you go to the effort to articulate the idea in a written form to record it? Did you go to the trouble, effort and expense to get it legally protected with a patent? Because if not you are just demonstrating your ignorance with your example.

Yeah, no. I think you've misinterpreted my point. My example was to show that ideas are actually quite common but that implementation, development of service and ensuring that the infrastructure works correctly is a far larger piece of work. Delivering and continually developing a product takes far more work than patenting it and this should be weighted far higher when it comes to cases like this.
 

bluespark

macrumors 68040
Jul 11, 2009
3,111
4,037
Chicago
Cry me a river about large corporations being picked upon. For every phantom I'll show you a legion of abuse by large corporations, across the globe.

Apple had the resources and wealth to license the tech. They chose to roll the dice, and that is on the legal staff assessments. For such visible technology Apple should have built a stronger case, and/or made every attempt to push this as part of any FRAND patented technology. If VirnetX refused they could have proven good faith in licensing and proved the company had no desire to license their technologies, but to extort potential competitors. Clearly, they failed on all their approaches.

Pay up.

You might want to re-read my post, because I didn't express a judgment one way or the other about large corporations being picked upon. I merely said -- and this is well-known in the litigation world -- that the Eastern District of Texas is known for sticking it to large corporations regardless of the merits of the underlying case. There is a reason you see that jurisdiction so often in news about patents and other matters directed at large corporate defendants. It isn't because there is any particular patent or other business expertise there. Rather, plaintiffs choose the forum because they win there.

The rest of your post is built on the assumption that the court was correct. I'll leave that without comment.
 
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kdarling

macrumors P6
. I merely said -- and this is well-known in the litigation world -- that the Eastern District of Texas is known for sticking it to large corporations regardless of the merits of the underlying case.

That's not what they're known for. They're not against big corporations. That's just who the defendants usually are.

Rather, East Texas is known for legal rules that greatly benefit the patent holder, whether big or small.

That's why small patentees prefer using that District versus, say, suing Apple or Google in their home state of California, where the larger corporations have all the advantages.

Unfortunately, the same local legal rules that help small plaintiffs against large defendants, also put small defendants at a disadvantage, and allows for weaker software patents as well.
 
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Winni

macrumors 68040
Oct 15, 2008
3,207
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Germany.
This is not significant, the system is working well and I can't see a reason for change.

When Apple got into their most lucrative business (iPhones) they were 30 years late everyone else making phones. They piggy backed a million patents in every technology sector to create a phone. Despite this overwhelming complexity they were still able to make huge profits despite not having been involved in the evolution of the phone up to that point. Patent trolling isn't sexy but it also isn't a barrier to companies making profit.

It is a show-stopping barrier for small companies that do not have the money to support lawyers or an own legal department. Only large corporations benefit from the current patent system.
 

StevieD100

macrumors 6502a
Jan 18, 2014
732
1,148
Living Dangerously in Retirement
You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Really that simple. Just the cost of doing business. You steal, you get sued and you pay. No different than what Apple wants of its own patents.
These days with the USPTO granting patents for really obvious {cough-cough} inventions it is getting close to the point where doing any development will infringe on at least a dozen patents. For any company to look up patents is asking for being sued for wilfull violation. At one company where I worked engineers were fobidden from looking at any patent except when instructed to be the Lawyers in writing.
If you don't know about the patent then the 3X damages should not apply (East Texas excepted).
As for the subject of Apple buying this patent so that the 'Troll'/NPE didn't get it made me laugh. Many of these deals are done totally in private and the only thing that gets releases is the name on the patent owner in the USPTO.
I held a patent (granted in 1978) and never made a $$$$ from it. That wasn't the point back then. Now it is all about money, money ,money.
How many patents have been granted simply because they had the word 'computer' or 'network' added to them?
What a load of old cock. If I were in the USPTO, I'd never allow them but I'm not. The sooner the USPTO is reformed to stop this stupidity the better.
 
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