Apple Pay Launches in Canada With American Express, Australia Later This Week

[ptb42]

The point I'm trying to make, is that while the bank can use my money to make money for themselves, I'm not paying money out of my own pocket for my bank account each month.

It's not money out of your pocket, but by giving them use of your money -- the bank is making money by having you as a customer.... maybe not now, but in the future.

At the moment, you are a marginal customer that isn't contributing anything to their bottom line. But, by establishing a relationship with you early in your life, they are hoping you'll became a profitable customer as you mature, buy a house and start a family.

 

[LordVic]

And yes you do have those features in Canada... Join a credit union. Multiple people on this thread (who live in Canada) have joined a credit union that offers the same services as the big 5 banks.

Did you miss my post earlier about why more people aren't using the non 5 big banks? I agree, we have options, I don't pay any service fees on my bank accounts because I'm using a smaller bank.

I don't think you understand how much the Big 5 dominate in Canada. They have effectively pushed any other bank out of the media by purchasing almost all the air / tv time. You won't find commercials for other banks. You wont find advertising.

Ask how many people in Canada if they know about any of the smaller banks. Most will have never heard of any of the banks outside fo the top 5. most will never have heard about any of the credit unions.

it would be nice if our situation was more diverse. But its clear that you don't have an understanding of our financial markets, which is vastly different from the US market. I encourage you to gain some knowledge in this matter before you expect to be taken seriously.

I encourage my friends and family to find banks that are not one of the "big 5", but at the end of the day, if you want a bank with branches, tellers, their own machines, you're banking at one of the big 5.

Banking at a Credit Union or one of the smaller banks, do not provide teller or branch services. usually have to piggy back off the big 5's infrastructure and do not have their own network of ABMs, which end up having service fees just to use some other banks machine. Do not have vast portfolios' of different services, such as mortgage lending, lines of credits, trading, mutual funds (etc).

you cannot assume because something operates one way in the US, it operates the same in Canada. we are our own nation

 

[macnewbie91]

Did you miss my post earlier about why more people aren't using the non 5 big banks? I agree, we have options, I don't pay any service fees on my bank accounts because I'm using a smaller bank.

(#1)I don't think you understand how much the Big 5 dominate in Canada. They have effectively pushed any other bank out of the media by purchasing almost all the air / tv time. You won't find commercials for other banks. You wont find advertising.

Ask how many people in Canada if they know about any of the smaller banks. Most will have never heard of any of the banks outside fo the top 5. most will never have heard about any of the credit unions.

it would be nice if our situation was more diverse. But its clear that you don't have an understanding of our financial markets, which is vastly different from the US market. I encourage you to gain some knowledge in this matter before you expect to be taken seriously.

(#2)I encourage my friends and family to find banks that are not one of the "big 5", but at the end of the day, if you want a bank with branches, tellers, their own machines, you're banking at one of the big 5.

(#3)Banking at a Credit Union or one of the smaller banks, do not provide teller or branch services. usually have to piggy back off the big 5's infrastructure and do not have their own network of ABMs, which end up having service fees just to use some other banks machine. Do not have vast portfolios' of different services, such as mortgage lending, lines of credits, trading, mutual funds (etc).

(#4)you cannot assume because something operates one way in the US, it operates the same in Canada. we are our own nation

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(#1) You don't know how to use Google and search for "credit unions,"? it's not hard.

(#2) This has already been addressed by other people in this thread.

(#3) See #2.

(#4) I've already stated that I was replying to an American poster.

 

[LordVic]

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(#1) You don't know how to use Google and search for "credit unions,"? it's not hard.

(#2) This has already been addressed by other people in this thread.

(#3) See #2.

(#4) I've already stated that I was replying to an American poster.

your arrogance is oustanding.

 

[macnewbie91]

your arrogance is oustanding.

I think you need to look up the definition of arrogant.

 

[Wondercow]

I encourage my friends and family to find banks that are not one of the "big 5", but at the end of the day, if you want a bank with branches, tellers, their own machines, you're banking at one of the big 5.

Banking at a Credit Union or one of the smaller banks, do not provide teller or branch services. usually have to piggy back off the big 5's infrastructure and do not have their own network of ABMs, which end up having service fees just to use some other banks machine. Do not have vast portfolios' of different services, such as mortgage lending, lines of credits, trading, mutual funds (etc).

This may certainly be true for some credit unions and smaller banks, but it absolutely cannot be said as a blanket statement. Every credit union and "smaller bank" I've ever been with, or my wife has been with (and our parents as well), has offered everything you claim they don't have.

We currently have our mutual funds and investments, a line of credit, TFSA, RRSPs, and RESP with our credit union. We also used to have a mortgage through them. We talk to tellers all the time as well as meeting with their licenced financial advisors. In fact, credit unions (many, if not all, in North America at least) started as a way to provide loans and mortgages to people who couldn't get them at banks. I'd be amazed if there are any that no longer provide those services.

 

[kdarling]

Ahhhh, maybe that was my problem today at Shopper's Drug Mart when I tried to use Apple Pay - my iPhone asked for a 4 digit PIN and I figured it wanted my device unlock number (which didn't work). It hadn't occurred to me that perhaps because it was the first time I was using my iPhone to pay that it wanted the number from the front of my Amex card.

Not the numbers from your physical card. Remember, Apple Pay uses a token (the "Device Account Number" or DAN) instead of your actual account number.

You can find the necessary DAN digits if you open Passbook, tap your AMEX card, and then tap the Info icon.

The per-device token (DAN) is why you must use the same iOS purchase device to get refunds. If you paid with your Apple Watch, you cannot use your iPhone's DAN. They're different, or should be.

Haven't Visa and MC already signed agreements with Apple, or is that something they have to do on a country by country basis?

Visa/MC don't have to pay anything.

It's each issuing bank, that has to make a deal to pay Apple (and send them transaction info).

The banks ALSO have to pay Visa/MC for tokenization.

Apple is a hardware company and makes their profit on hardware, they can't go on offering FREE services to developers, banks and customers and still make money.

Sure, Apple should get a fee for registration setup, since that action does use their servers.

However, Apple's servers are not involved in contactless transactions. Apple's per-transaction fee is simply blatant blackmail in order for banks to get their cards on board.

It's as if a plastic card maker demanded a transaction fee every time one of their cards got used in a store.

Apple's cut comes from the card companies--not the retailer, not the customer. The fee they charge (0.15% in the U.S., lower in the U.K) is acceptable to the car issuer because it removes an entire class of credit card fraud, meaning the issuer pays less overall.

Contactless fraud is tiny. Like 0.007%. So not worth the fee for that.

The other kind of fraud that Apple Pay helps with is when store databases get hacked. However, that's simply tokenization which is handled by the card networks' app in the Secure Element, and in their backends. No need to pay Apple for that during transactions, since the only part of it Apple is involved in, is the token registration.

 

[LordVic]

This may certainly be true for some credit unions and smaller banks, but it absolutely cannot be said as a blanket statement. Every credit union and "smaller bank" I've ever been with, or my wife has been with (and our parents as well), has offered everything you claim they don't have.

We currently have our mutual funds and investments, a line of credit, TFSA, RRSPs, and RESP with our credit union. We also used to have a mortgage through them. We talk to tellers all the time as well as meeting with their licenced financial advisors. In fact, credit unions (many, if not all, in North America at least) started as a way to provide loans and mortgages to people who couldn't get them at banks. I'd be amazed if there are any that no longer provide those services.

yes, Don't mean to pass it off as a blanket statement.

Each credit union will vary depending on what they're allowed to provide and have applied for.

sorry if it seemed like I was saying that none of these were available, only that the big 5 banks tend to be the prominent one stop shop for everything in one place, which a lot of other banks might not necesarily be able to provide.

Trust me, I have a bunch of stuff and I don't ever touch one of the big 5. they can all suck rotten eggs for all i care. They're borderline criminal scum

 

[Crzyrio]

Not the numbers from your physical card. Remember, Apple Pay uses a token (the "Device Account Number" or DAN) instead of your actual account number.

Sure, Apple should get a fee for registration setup, since that action does use their servers.

However, Apple's servers are not involved in contactless transactions. Apple's per-transaction fee is simply blatant blackmail in order for banks to get their cards on board.

It's as if a plastic card maker demanded a transaction fee every time one of their cards got used in a store.

And then Apple should charge the banks $ per support call?

 

[kdarling]

And then Apple should charge the banks $ per support call?

If it's because the backend card systems aren't working, then sure, they could make a deal where they charge Visa/MC/banks to forward them any support calls.

Actually, that's probably already in place for registration problems.

 

[hogo-fogo]

You paid $1000 for the phone not for the life long service which is Apple Pay.

I wouldn't be able to use pay apple without apple's hw. I consider pay apple's service life longness to be equal to life spam of their hw.

 

[macnewbie91]

I wouldn't be able to use pay apple without apple's hw. I consider pay apple's service life longness to be equal to life spam of their hw.

What did I just read?

You mean Apple Pay??

What is "longness?"

 

[Peepo]

Oooh I just got email telling me I was approved for Amex SimplyCash and I should receive my card within 10 days. Can't wait to try Apple Pay now.

 

[catean]

What is "longness?"

I think it's that lake with a monster in it.

 

[catean]

double post

 

[HotHotHeat]

Could be the vendor is choosing not to support AMEX due to costs.

Dunno how it is in the states, so this only applies to Canada.

In Canada, The vender themselves pay for the use of their terminals. it is a percentage of each transaction. from talking with a few smaller stores, VISA/Mastercard charge anywhere from 1-2% per transaction. I don't know how much AMEX charges. However, I have run into a bunch of places that will accept VISA/MC but refuses AMEX, and are not setup with AMEX as a payment processor. But it's rumoured that AMEX merchant fees are quite high in comparison.

Its not unheard of for some small vendors to not even accept any credit cards, despite having terminals. EG:, a local convenience store here, and a little caffe in my building have full contactless payment terminals, but only accept Debit cards, no Credit Cards at all.

I wasn't very clear...

It seems Verifone and Monteris contactless systems do not support Amex the same way they support MC/Visa. Amex cards are accepted, but only via chip and PIN, so no Apple Pay.

 

[macaximx]

I wasn't very clear...

It seems Verifone and Monteris contactless systems do not support Amex the same way they support MC/Visa. Amex cards are accepted, but only via chip and PIN, so no Apple Pay.

That is changing. http://www.moneris.com/en/About-Moneris/NewsAndEvents/2015/Month/Nov-17.aspx

 

[jm001]

Got my AMEX in the mail on Thursday and the only hiccup thus far has been with getting Wallet to scan the card; it was finally accepted only via manual input. The card itself is transparent so the camera had a difficult time recognizing the numbers. I have used it at Indigo without a problem (took 2 seconds tops once the phone was within range of the terminal). I was going to try it at Farm Boy, but the cashier said she didn't think it would work (although they do have the TAP terminals). If the big banks jump on board then all the better. If not I think I can get by with Amex and just pay it off online.

 

[ipedro]

Apple Pay has been steadily gaining acceptance over the month.

While it didn't originally work, I've gotten ApplePay accepted at ShoppersDrugmart.

Shoppers Drugmart just tweeted:

We are currently in the process of replacing our pin machines and the new model should be able to accept ApplePay consistently soon.

This is awesome news for many people across the country as Shoppers is one of the biggest retailers for (non fresh) groceries in Canada. It's where I do most of my every day shopping. There are 4 in my neighbourhood!

ToysRUs worked as well during my Christmas shopping. The cashier was a little shocked that I paid with my phone and called a manager to verify that my bill had been paid. Tim Hortons and Starbucks have worked since day one and most Subway sandwiches that I've been to this month have accepted it as well. Hudson's Bay Company worked once, although I only tried it because I noticed that they had a new terminal. Most of their stores are still on old Ingenico PIN pads which don't accept tap payments so it may be a while until ApplePay is accepted at every Bay store.

Leading payment terminal providers Moneris and Global Solutions have publicly come on board and have been pushing ApplePay to their merchants. These two account for almost all payment terminals in Toronto, if not the country. Moneris says that over 80% of their terminals are ApplePay ready. The merchant just needs to request to turn it on.

Not bad for the first month. At this rate, ApplePay will be accepted ubiquitously in Canada in the first year.

 

[hollersoft]

I've used it at Shoppers, Winners, London Drugs, Canadian Tire, Marks, McD, Tim's, and probably some others I'm forgetting. Overall, it works more often than it doesn't, for me. Some places that don't have tap at all (Burger King, Walmart, Home Depot) of course don't work, and a few (Quizno's, Princess Auto) have tap but not Amex by tap. YMMV depending on what POS terminals (probably my favourite acronym) a specific location has installed.

I haven't tried it much at mom & pop places. I don't want to punish them with Amex fees. Honestly it seems more useful in places where speed is important (drive through).

It can only get better once the Canadian bank cartel gets on board.

 

[jm001]

I tried using in at my local grocery store (not a major chain) which has the Moneris machines. They accept tap, but I do believe their machines are friendlier to TD debit and MC cards. I tried using Apple Pay but got errors and when I decided to just tap my Amex it too got errors. I had to do the PIN method (this also happened while trying to tap my debit card which is NOT TD).

 

[ipedro]

For practical purposes, it's starting to pay off. I went on a run around the city with just my Apple Watch like I often do. I left my wallet and iPhone at home. I would usually just run straight home but it was a nice day so I stuck around the waterfront after my run. I was able to go into Shoppers to get a bottle of Gatorade then Subway for lunch and when I was finished, I got a Starbucks and walked home. On my way back, I stopped by Shoppers again to get some dog food and detergent.

Everything paid for with my Apple Watch. No need to stuff money in my shorts, and was able to run some errands on the way home. In Toronto, the TTC now takes ApplePay to reload your PRESTO card or buy tokens so in a pinch you're able to get around with just your Watch or iPhone. It only works for reloading but PRESTO itself will become ApplePay enabled within a year so you'll be able to tap your Watch directly when you get on the subway or a streetcar.

This will only get better as more retailers get on board and some start offering their own cards on ApplePay. I was a little skeptical that ApplePay could pull it off with just AMEX on board but it looks like they knew what they were doing. The banks will inevitably be pressured into joining in or risk losing credit and debit transactions to AMEX.

 

[ipedro]

HomeSense now accepts ApplePay in Canada. I noticed that they added American Express to their stickers on the terminal so I tried to pay with my Watch and it worked!

Steadily, every store that I go to is starting to accept ApplePay.

 

[jm001]

I just noticed from one of the many ad mails you get at this time of year from all the various vendors, Staples.ca sent one out that advertised they now accept Apple Pay. Very good because I do shop there especially in the New Year for supplies.

 

[ipedro]

Scotiabank has been calling me all week and when I finally picked up, it was a sales rep trying to sign me on to a new credit card with better conditions because they noticed that I stopped using my old one. I told them that I stopped using my Scotiabank VISA and Business VISA because they don't work with ApplePay and that I've been using AMEX exclusively. The sales rep was candid with me and said that she's been hearing that a lot. She tried one final pitch but I shut her down saying to call me back when Scotiabank allows adding debit/credit cards to ApplePay.

On merchant acceptance, there seems to have been some big turnaround at AmericanExpress because suddenly, almost everywhere I tap, ApplePay works. It flipped from the situation a few weeks ago where ApplePay working was the rare exception rather than the rule. This week, I've tried variety stores, restaurants, a hardware store — it all worked. None of them explicitly accept ApplePay. I just asked to pay with credit, and if there was a tap icon, I paid with ApplePay and it worked.

I think that American Express, Moneris and Global Solutions have their reps calling merchants, encouraging them to turn on ExpressWay which enables ApplePay to work. Eventually, it'll be that if a store accepts tap payments (almost everywhere), they'll be able to accept ApplePay. No need to be an official ApplePay partner or even list ApplePay on their terminals.

Apple knew what they were doing when they got their foot into Canada and Australia through AMEX. It didn't seem widely accepted at first but the allure of ApplePay seems to be getting merchants to start accepting AMEX tap. The American Express network will get them much faster into countries around the world and banks will start to fall in line.