Apple Says iMessage Interception Would Require Re-Engineering Systems, Has No Interest in Doing So

[foodog]

that is the problem. people like you who say that "i don't care if they know..." or "let them, i've got nothing to hide" are throwing everybody's privacy away

iMessage isn't a mandatory activity. There is no privacy on the Internet or any other public network.

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No. And I clean house in the nude. I have nothing to hide and am not worthy of being monitored.

Too much information!

 

[WaxedJacket]

I keep hearing this argument over and over again, and I'm absolutely stunned that anyone in a free society can think this way. Then again, maybe you HAVE to live in a free society to be that naive...

I partially agree with the dudes statement. Just based on the circumstances though. Sure I'd love everything to be locked down, private and all that. But knowing the nature of the beast (the internet) you really have to come to terms with information leakage. Nothing is secure and just go about business that way.

I know the nature of the beast, which makes me not do any shady things online so that makes his statement true. I have nothing to worry about.

I don't agree with "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" but I'm also not blind to the reality that information online is never completely secure.

 

[iKen1]

Apple has no plans or intentions to re-engineer the iMessage system, unless Home Land Security "requests" it.

I think you will find that PGP also has the same situation. If Homeland makes then they will have to do it. It would be trivial to hide the fact from you on their website. It offers no additional protection. If you don't want them doing it then you need to vote in a government that will prevent it.

 

[xero9]

For me, there are two ways to look at it..

For normal every day texts, it's not that much of a concern if some unknown person or entity is skimming through. It's someone who I don't have direct contact with. On the other hand if someone I know has access (eg employer) then that is not acceptable, period.

On the other hand, with regards to the people who say if you're not doing anything illegal then there is nothing to hide.. Fair enough, but the US is a superpower, and what is the one thing someone with power loves? More power! I believe that if some other country was communicating about some up and coming technology (whether it be aviation, mechanical, weaponry, etc), that would light up the NSA's radar like a Christmas tree.

 

[firedept]

Nice theory, unfortunately history proves you wrong. If Big Government decides tomorrow that something you did 5 years ago is now illegal, they could use anything they get their hands on to make your life miserable. Just look at what happened in Nazi Germany. One of the few lessons that Germans learned from that time is the value of privacy. Pray we are never forced to learn the same lesson.

At my age there is nothing to hide. I have lived a simple life. I am married, what could the government do to make my life worse! LOL!

Hey, can you post a list of text messages that you've sent to your family and friends over the past couple days? The full text messages, preferably.

If you hesitated even the slightest when you read that, you should reconsider your stance.

Here you go. Only thing redacted was my name. I only message one client, so do not have many messages. Like I say, I am not even significant enough to have lots of messages. If you find my message anything but boring, I will be surprised.

 

[genovelle]

ANY data which is transmitted across the internet may be intercepted by someone. Nothing is safe - you MUST trust companies/people.

Why this Apple-centric bashing?

Facebook employes can read your posts, Citibank employees can see your bank transactions, Google employees can know what all your searches are.

This is no less secure than anything else done on the internet.

The crazy part is that no one cares that Google admits to scanning every email and provides a system that can be easily decrypted. Apple's system confounds even the FBI because they can't hack them and Apple has no desire or reason to scan them. Still we have people bashing them because they could one day re-engineer their platform to gain access. Ridiculous!

 

[whooleytoo]

Former CIA director James Woolsey admitted some years ago that the US conducted industrial espionage on EU companies. In light of that - why would anyone want their messages read by the US government?

Without privacy measures, you're dependant on trust. And as we've come to see - there's no basis for such trust.

IMO, if you have no problem with your messages being read, you're not thinking this fully through.

 

[scaredpoet]

As a citizen of the United States, one of my fears (aside from my own personal privacy concerns) is that this NSA spying will end up causing users from other countries to take their business elsewhere. In the long term, our economy could be hurt as innovation is stifled in the face of these broad security measures scaring away potential users and their cash flow into our country.

This may be what precisely is necessary for our government to realize that this deep level of inspection, spying and storing of others' data is a fool's errand. It'll have to get worse before things get better, sadly.

On the other hand, I think Apple is there now. They know people will get spooked by the prospect of their messages being spied on, and that this is really bad for business, and thus why they have "no interest" in doing it. Can the NSA compell them to "take interest?" Probably. That unfortunately, is something Apple can't control. The only way out would be to do what lavabit did and close up shop completely.

So the question is: would people rather have an iMessage service that probably isn't eavesdropped on right now, or would they rather have nothing?

 

[derek4484]

Seems pretty secure, so that Apple doesnt or can't read your messages. But it seems pretty easy for the NSA/gov't to read them. All they have to do is force the third party servers to give up the public keys. The NSA will force them via secret subpoena, national security letter, or even just hack their servers.

 

[parseckadet]

Here's what I don't get. What nitwit out there is using iMessage and expecting it to be totally secure to begin with?

It wasn't until all this stuff with the DEA came out that I even realized that iMessage was as secure as it is. The only expectation of security I ever had was that some random hacker on the internet couldn't intercept my messages. I NEVER had the expectation that Apple wouldn't be able to provide my messages to law enforcement, mainly because the cell carriers do that all the time with text messages. I actually assumed Apple WOULD provide this type of access if someone obtained a warrant for it, at least before all the NSA stuff came to light anyway. And I think that's what most REASONABLE people assumed as well.

Anyone who is doing anything that they don't want the government finding out about, and has at least half a brain, isn't going to use iMessage or any other text message service to communicate.

 

[derek4484]

Former CIA director James Woolsey admitted some years ago that the US conducted industrial espionage on EU companies. In light of that - why would anyone want their messages read by the US government?

Without privacy measures, you're dependant on trust. And as we've come to see - there's no basis for such trust.

IMO, if you have no problem with your messages being read, you're not thinking this fully through.

Absolutely right. I'm no criminal or terrorist. I have no intentions of hurting anybody. But I still want my government to respect my privacy and want my private communications to remain private.

These fools that are blind gov't followers that go around stating "if you're not breaking the law why worry what the gov't sees you do?" Are complete morons and fools.

 

[Oletros]

The crazy part is that no one cares that Google admits to scanning every email and provides a system that can be easily decrypted. Apple's system confounds even the FBI because they can't hack them and Apple has no desire or reason to scan them. Still we have people bashing them because they could one day re-engineer their platform to gain access. Ridiculous!

Ein? Apple like every other email provider scans each and every email that passes by their systems. They even scan compressed files contents

 

[derek4484]

Here's what I don't get. What nitwit out there is using iMessage and expecting it to be totally secure to begin with?

It wasn't until all this stuff with the DEA came out that I even realized that iMessage was as secure as it is. The only expectation of security I ever had was that some random hacker on the internet couldn't intercept my messages. I NEVER had the expectation that Apple wouldn't be able to provide my messages to law enforcement, mainly because the cell carriers do that all the time with text messages. I actually assumed Apple WOULD provide this type of access if someone obtained a warrant for it, at least before all the NSA stuff came to light anyway. And I think that's what most REASONABLE people assumed as well.

The big thing for me is expectation of privacy. US courts have ruled that if I write a letter and merely stick it in a plain white envelope, I have an expectation of privacy and the government cannot legally seize that letter. But, if I send and encrypted email, chat message, imessage, or text message, they somehow think they have the right to seize that message without due process? How does that work? The mere fact that I encrypted it means I wanted it to remain private and should therefore have an expectation of privacy and that the government shall not seize it and decrypt it without due process (obtaining a warrant based on probable cause).

Anyone who is doing anything that they don't want the government finding out about, and has at least half a brain, isn't going to use iMessage or any other text message service to communicate.

With all due respect, I think you are totally wrong. When I send a letter to someone, the government needs a warrant to obtain that letter. So, if I send a text message or iMessage or IM directly to someone. I expect the same level of privacy. What makes it so different? A private communication directed to a specific telephone number, username, or email account should be just as private as if I wrote a letter, put it in an envelope and mailed it to someone. Whether the information is carried by the USPS, or via the internet I have the same level of expectation of privacy. The government should have no right to intercept it without obtaining a warrant.

And, if a "hacker" (basically anybody other than the NSA, FBI, etc) does this, they are guilty of violating federal wiretapping and computer hacking laws. But, when any of the alphabet soup agencies does it, it's OK?

 

[knightlie]

that is the problem. people like you who say that "i don't care if they know..." or "let them, i've got nothing to hide" are throwing everybody's privacy away

Rubbish, almost as much BS as the "do you have curtains" response. If you're that paranoid then YOU need to take steps to secure your communication to your own satisfaction.

 

[D.T.]

Too much information!

It's actually too little, I think we need an address ...

 

[newyorksole]

ANY data which is transmitted across the internet may be intercepted by someone. Nothing is safe - you MUST trust companies/people.

Why this Apple-centric bashing?

Facebook employes can read your posts, Citibank employees can see your bank transactions, Google employees can know what all your searches are.

This is no less secure than anything else done on the internet.

THANK YOU.

I really hate articles like this. People are so stupid and worried about the wrong things. Oh you're worried about your texts, but not anything else you do over the internet? Give me a break.

These companies developed these services THEMSELVES and obviously know way more than we do about things THEY created. So either you use it or you don't.

Stop complaining.

 

[knightlie]

Seems pretty secure, so that Apple doesnt or can't read your messages. But it seems pretty easy for the NSA/gov't to read them. All they have to do is force the third party servers to give up the public keys. The NSA will force them via secret subpoena, national security letter, or even just hack their servers.

That applies to any trust-based security mechanism, including SSL.

 

[doelcm82]

Personally, I don't care if an Apple employee knows that I'm iMessaging my wife that I'm on my way home from work.

Or if your wife is iMessaging the next door neighbor that now is not a good time, because you just texted her that you're on your way home from work.

 

[gnasher729]

“The research discussed theoretical vulnerabilities that would require Apple to re-engineer the iMessage system to exploit it, and Apple has no plans or intentions to do so.”

Falls some way short of saying that Apple will never do so.

But says clearly that Apple has no plans or intentions to do so.

Someone at Apple reads your post and thinks "what an earth do we have to do to convince these boneheaded idiots that we have not the slightest interest in reading their messages?"

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Seems pretty secure, so that Apple doesnt or can't read your messages. But it seems pretty easy for the NSA/gov't to read them. All they have to do is force the third party servers to give up the public keys. The NSA will force them via secret subpoena, national security letter, or even just hack their servers.

Wow. Just wow.

You don't have to force anyone to give up any public keys. They are public keys. Get it? Public. Available for everyone to see.

If Apple can't read these messages "without re-engineering systems", then nobody can just take some keys and access the data.

 

[winston1236]

One should reasonably assess that anything transmitted as data over the air or online could be seen by someone somewhere and that a user should have some bit of trust or hope that no one is reading their stuff. If you don't, then you should wax seal letters and mail or deliver them to your recipient yourself.

Personally, I don't care if an Apple employee knows that I'm iMessaging my wife that I'm on my way home from work.

So you're an NSA employee?

 

[knightlie]

Hey, can you post a list of text messages that you've sent to your family and friends over the past couple days? The full text messages, preferably.

If you hesitated even the slightest when you read that, you should reconsider your stance.

Just because he has nothing to hide doesn't mean his messages are any of your business.

 

[iThinkIt]

iNSA

 

[pubwvj]

Theoretically the Constitution could be changed such that only dogs are allowed to have any control of the government, vote, run for office, piss on the sidewalk, etc. But it is unlikely. Trust me.

 

[derek4484]

But says clearly that Apple has no plans or intentions to do so.

Someone at Apple reads your post and thinks "what an earth do we have to do to convince these boneheaded idiots that we have not the slightest interest in reading their messages?"

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Wow. Just wow.

You don't have to force anyone to give up any public keys. They are public keys. Get it? Public. Available for everyone to see.

If Apple can't read these messages "without re-engineering systems", then nobody can just take some keys and access the data.

You missed the entire point. Apple stores the encryption keys on a third party server so that Apple cannot read your messages. ANYBODY who gets those encryption keys can then read the messages. With those keys stored on a commercial server, it's extremely easy for the NSA to access them. All they have to do is get a FISA warrant, DOJ National security letter, or just hack the servers.

 

[parseckadet]

With all due respect, I think you are totally wrong. When I send a letter to someone, the government needs a warrant to obtain that letter. So, if I send a text message or iMessage or IM directly to someone. I expect the same level of privacy. What makes it so different? A private communication directed to a specific telephone number, username, or email account should be just as private as if I wrote a letter, put it in an envelope and mailed it to someone. Whether the information is carried by the USPS, or via the internet I have the same level of expectation of privacy. The government should have no right to intercept it without obtaining a warrant.

And, if a "hacker" (basically anybody other than the NSA, FBI, etc) does this, they are guilty of violating federal wiretapping and computer hacking laws. But, when any of the alphabet soup agencies does it, it's OK?

Not sure how you're saying I'm wrong. Notice that I said the following:

I actually assumed Apple WOULD provide this type of access if someone obtained a warrant for it...

My expectation before was that if, and ONLY IF, the government had a warrant Apple would provide some form of access. This is the same level of protection that's afforded the letter in your example. I was NOT saying that it's ok for the NSA, or anyone else, to obtain access to iMessage or any other service without a warrant. What Apple is saying is that they don't have the ability to provide access, even if someone does have a warrant. And all I meant to say was that actually goes BEYOND my expectations for this service.