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xinu

macrumors regular
Mar 9, 2012
211
0
Finland
well as it seems that about 90% of AAPL is owned by US banks etc institutions the forth coming economical crash will be enormous scale.

they are not backing up with Gold, they are buying AAPL :eek:

Italy's debt hit 2500 billion USD just today. EU will collapse, its a big mess and riots are rising everywhere. Just informing my views and observations.

And IMF gave 35 billion USD today to Greece and they are BROKE
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,150
31,206
So rumors are Deutsche Bank is going to remove Apple from it's buy list. Anyone know why?
 

Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
that's why I love options, whether the market is bullish or bearish you can still make money with very little in your account.

Yes and in the AAPL bearish and total market meltdown scenarios discussed in this thread simply buying puts on the Nasdaq or S&P respectively would allow an investor to sidestep the decline or even profit from the carnage.
 

MartiNZ

macrumors 65816
Apr 10, 2008
1,222
125
Auckland, New Zealand
Anyone got a time machine? Would love to go back a few years...

Oh I'm sure Apple is working on one :). Was that really not said in the last 7 pages?

I'm typing this on a Tangerine iBook, does that count? In every way except for the $$ attached, I guess ><.

Pretty amazing story anyway, it barely even went down on the iPad 3 announcement - out of control! And right when I've ditched because of Lion's unfortunate directions.
 

xinu

macrumors regular
Mar 9, 2012
211
0
Finland
So rumors are Deutsche Bank is going to remove Apple from it's buy list. Anyone know why?

Perhaps it means nothing, perhaps it means the end of the world. I bet no one can figure this sh** out anymore :mad:

What I've heard is that banks in Germany can be in a deepest trouble of them all if euro collapses... That "it is a mess" , the dutch banking system.
 

Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
True, but if you buy $10,000 of AAPL vs $10,000 for a call option, you can still lose $10,000. It would take a much smaller decline in the value of AAPL to lose all $10,000 with the option contract.

The difference, of course, is that $10,000 will buy only about 16 shares of AAPL right now, while it will buy a contract to buy 100 Apple shares in October for $515.

That is not a stock replacement strategy. The idea is to leverage the upside and limit downside. If you want the equivalent of 200 shares of AAPL you buy 2 contracts capturing the upside of 200 shares for the cost of 2 contracts. Or as in your original example all of the upside for 20% of the downside risk.
 

chinesedemo

Cancelled
Oct 16, 2011
124
178
Perhaps it means nothing, perhaps it means the end of the world. I bet no one can figure this sh** out anymore :mad:

What I've heard is that banks in Germany can be in a deepest trouble of them all if euro collapses... That "it is a mess" , the dutch banking system.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm looking forward to the decline of the Euro...........
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
That is not a stock replacement strategy. The idea is to leverage the upside and limit downside. If you want the equivalent of 200 shares of AAPL you buy 2 contracts capturing the upside of 200 shares for the cost of 2 contracts. Or as in your original example all of the upside for 20% of the downside risk.

True, of course the low cost of the option increases the temptation to speculate.
 

notanalien

macrumors newbie
Mar 15, 2012
6
0
It's as I told a close friend yesterday, buying AAPL is not an investment strategy. There are two important words there: "investment" and "strategy".

Investment requires active research, and making decisions not based on speculative plays but a sound analysis of the value of the asset being acquired. Hearing about a company as ubiquitous as Apple and then jumping on board on the assumption that it'll keep going up (remember the housing market?) is not investing.

If all of Apple's enterprise were struck by a meteor tomorrow and wiped off the face of the planet, would the average Apple speculator be well insulated from that catastrophe in the rest of their portfolio. Would their "sit and presume infinite growth" tack work with the broader market?

If the answer to questions like these is "no" then whatever else you want to call it, it's not investing, and it's not a strategy.

Spend less time beating yourself up for "shoulda, woulda, coulda" on a company that could have just as easily gone the other way... and start beefing up your knowledge of investing, and insulate yourself against potential catastrophic loss. THAT, and not consistent huge wins, is what will growth your wealth tremendously in the long term.

Chasing unsustainable returns is a sure fire way to expose your principal to risk of loss... and that kind of loss compounds over time. I don't miss the AAPL boat because I have much more stable long term investments that are actually providing pretty stellar returns, very close to Apple's.... but without the volatility of the umpteen zillion speculators who are all sitting and hoping with their eyes closed and ears shut.

I'm not saying that Apple will do terribly, but Apple's book value is well below 600 dollars per share. So the difference is owing entirely to speculation on where they will go in the future. That works perfectly as long as Apple keeps producing double digit growth infinitely... but its the "infinitely" part that is a statistical impossibility. Growth rates have to shrink at that scale because a) Apple is gaining share of wallet much faster than the number of wallets or size of wallets is increasing, and b) Apple has to produce exponentially more marginal revenue each quarter just to maintain the same growth rate mathematically.

And then there's the Steve factor... any time a business's image and success are so inextricably tied to an iconic figure you cannot top that. No one will ever take the reins of Apple with a greater vested interest than Steve had. No visionary of Steve's caliber will prefer to work for Apple over starting his own company.

A shrewd investor is like a good hockey player... skate to where the puck is going next, not to where it is now.

Apple has ~$100 Billion in cash. Cold hard cash. They have approximately 1 Billion shares, meaning they're worth $100/share simply on the cash at hand. If every apple product was destroyed, every apple building demolished, every trademark, copyright, patent destroyed, and every apple employee killed - the stock would STILL be worth $100/share based solely on that cash.

So saying that Apple's value is "well below $600/share" is going to need some citation to it, as most professionals are giving it a valuation in the $800/share range.
 

dcorban

macrumors 6502a
Oct 29, 2007
914
30
Apple has ~$100 Billion in cash. Cold hard cash. They have approximately 1 Billion shares, meaning they're worth $100/share simply on the cash at hand. If every apple product was destroyed, every apple building demolished, every trademark, copyright, patent destroyed, and every apple employee killed - the stock would STILL be worth $100/share based solely on that cash.
But how, exactly, would stock holders get at that cash? If the company starts to perform poorly, you can bet the cash will begin to be spent. If the company had catastrophic performance, there wouldn't be any cash remaining.

It is rather strange to think that the current stock price is simply based on hoping someone else will eventually buy the stock for more than was paid. Eventually, someone will be stuck holding the bag. How can the stock be under- or over- valued if there is literally no return on the investment from Apple? There is no dividend. No buyback program. Zero chance of getting that money back other than from a "greater fool".
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Apple has ~$100 Billion in cash. Cold hard cash. They have approximately 1 Billion shares, meaning they're worth $100/share simply on the cash at hand. If every apple product was destroyed, every apple building demolished, every trademark, copyright, patent destroyed, and every apple employee killed - the stock would STILL be worth $100/share based solely on that cash.

Let's assume this is true. If you purchase at today's market price, where would that leave you? Losing 83% of your principal investment. That's where. This is my point about risk exposure. All that lost principal is worth several times that in future dollars, due to the orders of magnitude of compounded returns you could have achieved over time had you kept that principal.

Preserving principal is far more important than large short term returns, because it produces exponentially larger returns in the end.

So saying that Apple's value is "well below $600/share" is going to need some citation to it, as most professionals are giving it a valuation in the $800/share range.

This is not what I wrote. I wrote that their BOOK value is well below $600 per share... I also used that in a context discussing where the marginal value above book is coming from. My analytical methods aren't different from M&A experts. The difference is that M&A experts are in the business of securing transactions at a good discount. Street analysts, however, are in the business of generating hype to make it profitable for either their high net worth clients or for the institution itself (See Goldman Sachs and recent investigations into their misleading guidance to high net worth clients).

What I didn't say in that statement was what the intrinsic value of Apple is... it's still lower than $600 per share. But analysts don't make boatloads of money telling you this. They make boatloads of money convincing you that the future target is in the stratosphere.... and then Goldman dumps its own positions on the way up. You might have read a news article or two about this.

I did a quick analysis of a luxury brand, Tiffany & Co., using the exact specified methods that Standard and Poor's own analyst report had stated they used. Using exactly their methods, and their assumptions, I came to a valuation about HALF of what theirs was. I weighed it against another analyst board that uses similar methods to mine (which are ultimately based on Graham and Buffett's methods), and I was in the right ballpark. S&P wasn't.

The difference is I'm not in the business of making shmucks out of you guys. Street analysts are. I'm a business analyst. My job is to tell my executives where we are going to REALISTICALLY land in terms of operating results in the coming quarter, year, etc.

But if you think the guy who makes millions for Goldman at the expense of the broader population's gullibility is totally trustworthy (because they absolutely weren't snowing us about the value of MBSes, CDOs and other derivatives either...), then go right ahead and base your investment strategy off of trading as long as you're at or near their inflated target prices.

All I can do is present to you my view, which is a more conservative estimate than any licensed market hypester is going to share with you... They're meanwhile sitting on internal analyses that are closer to mine, executing purchases for their company at those prices, and then dumping to you at the inflated targets they give. If you think that's the better side of the equation to be on, I can't and won't argue with you.
 
Last edited:

Goratrix

macrumors regular
Aug 26, 2011
135
24
Apple has ~$100 Billion in cash. Cold hard cash.

Yes, they do have ~$100 Billion. What that really means is kind of hard to say, as it totally depends on the value of that little red symbol in front of the number. For all you know, the rising stock price could just be a symptom of the devaluation of the currency.
 

xinu

macrumors regular
Mar 9, 2012
211
0
Finland
Yes, they do have ~$100 Billion. What that really means is kind of hard to say, as it totally depends on the value of that little red symbol in front of the number. For all you know, the rising stock price could just be a symptom of the devaluation of the currency.

Well Apple has bought over 15 billion worth of FED rubbish bonds, I'm trying to find the web page .....
 

sotorious

macrumors 6502a
Aug 11, 2010
655
46
ENRON part 2. The people shorting the stock are having a field day though these last couple of days. Spikes up and trickles back down.
 

tevans333

macrumors member
Apr 13, 2010
84
1
So rumors are Deutsche Bank is going to remove Apple from it's buy list. Anyone know why?

They're removing it from their short term buy list, but are keeping it on their mid and long term buy list. It means that they believe the price is going to level off in the short term, but still increase in the medium and long term.
 

iSee

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2004
3,539
272
It's as I told a close friend yesterday, buying AAPL is not an investment strategy. There are two important words there: "investment" and "strategy".

Investment requires active research, and making decisions not based on speculative plays but a sound analysis of the value of the asset being acquired. Hearing about a company as ubiquitous as Apple and then jumping on board on the assumption that it'll keep going up (remember the housing market?) is not investing.

If all of Apple's enterprise were struck by a meteor tomorrow and wiped off the face of the planet, would the average Apple speculator be well insulated from that catastrophe in the rest of their portfolio. Would their "sit and presume infinite growth" tack work with the broader market?

If the answer to questions like these is "no" then whatever else you want to call it, it's not investing, and it's not a strategy.

Spend less time beating yourself up for "shoulda, woulda, coulda" on a company that could have just as easily gone the other way... and start beefing up your knowledge of investing, and insulate yourself against potential catastrophic loss. THAT, and not consistent huge wins, is what will growth your wealth tremendously in the long term.

Chasing unsustainable returns is a sure fire way to expose your principal to risk of loss... and that kind of loss compounds over time. I don't miss the AAPL boat because I have much more stable long term investments that are actually providing pretty stellar returns, very close to Apple's.... but without the volatility of the umpteen zillion speculators who are all sitting and hoping with their eyes closed and ears shut.

I'm not saying that Apple will do terribly, but Apple's book value is well below 600 dollars per share. So the difference is owing entirely to speculation on where they will go in the future. That works perfectly as long as Apple keeps producing double digit growth infinitely... but its the "infinitely" part that is a statistical impossibility. Growth rates have to shrink at that scale because a) Apple is gaining share of wallet much faster than the number of wallets or size of wallets is increasing, and b) Apple has to produce exponentially more marginal revenue each quarter just to maintain the same growth rate mathematically.

And then there's the Steve factor... any time a business's image and success are so inextricably tied to an iconic figure you cannot top that. No one will ever take the reins of Apple with a greater vested interest than Steve had. No visionary of Steve's caliber will prefer to work for Apple over starting his own company.

A shrewd investor is like a good hockey player... skate to where the puck is going next, not to where it is now.

YES!

Please, people who are considering putting your life savings into Apple stock, read this and understand it.

Putting too much into one stock -- no matter how great it is -- violates what is probably the most important (and simplest) rule of sound investment strategy: DIVERSIFY

And let's face it. While Apple is a great company, the recent run-up in stock price is most likely a bubble fueled by speculators. Bubbles pop. Do you really want to be that dumba** who makes some other guy rich?
 

Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
Let's assume this is true. If you purchase at today's market price, where would that leave you? Losing 83% of your principal investment. That's where. This is my point about risk exposure. All that lost principal is worth several times that in future dollars, due to the orders of magnitude of compounded returns you could have achieved over time had you kept that principal.

Preserving principal is far more important than large short term returns, because it produces exponentially larger returns in the end.



This is not what I wrote. I wrote that their BOOK value is well below $600 per share... I also used that in a context discussing where the marginal value above book is coming from. My analytical methods aren't different from M&A experts. The difference is that M&A experts are in the business of securing transactions at a good discount. Street analysts, however, are in the business of generating hype to make it profitable for either their high net worth clients or for the institution itself (See Goldman Sachs and recent investigations into their misleading guidance to high net worth clients).

What I didn't say in that statement was what the intrinsic value of Apple is... it's still lower than $600 per share. But analysts don't make boatloads of money telling you this. They make boatloads of money convincing you that the future target is in the stratosphere.... and then Goldman dumps its own positions on the way up. You might have read a news article or two about this.

I did a quick analysis of a luxury brand, Tiffany & Co., using the exact specified methods that Standard and Poor's own analyst report had stated they used. Using exactly their methods, and their assumptions, I came to a valuation about HALF of what theirs was. I weighed it against another analyst board that uses similar methods to mine (which are ultimately based on Graham and Buffett's methods), and I was in the right ballpark. S&P wasn't.

The difference is I'm not in the business of making shmucks out of you guys. Street analysts are. I'm a business analyst. My job is to tell my executives where we are going to REALISTICALLY land in terms of operating results in the coming quarter, year, etc.

But if you think the guy who makes millions for Goldman at the expense of the broader population's gullibility is totally trustworthy (because they absolutely weren't snowing us about the value of MBSes, CDOs and other derivatives either...), then go right ahead and base your investment strategy off of trading as long as you're at or near their inflated target prices.

All I can do is present to you my view, which is a more conservative estimate than any licensed market hypester is going to share with you... They're meanwhile sitting on internal analyses that are closer to mine, executing purchases for their company at those prices, and then dumping to you at the inflated targets they give. If you think that's the better side of the equation to be on, I can't and won't argue with you.

So just out of curiosity there was something wrong and very dangerous about the run from $78-584 in AAPL or the run from $1-12 in F in 2009?
 

xinu

macrumors regular
Mar 9, 2012
211
0
Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mg6wrYCT9Q Animated Amiga Tribute by Eric Schwartz


Someday in the distant future, we will see these same kind of Tribute videos for Apple too. And for Microsoft.

And they will all be made with Linux :cool:

Well. Maybe not. Put keep that in mind. What goes up, usually comes down.

----------

YES!

Please, people who are considering putting your life savings into Apple stock, read this and understand it.

Putting too much into one stock -- no matter how great it is -- violates what is probably the most important (and simplest) rule of sound investment strategy: DIVERSIFY

And let's face it. While Apple is a great company, the recent run-up in stock price is most likely a bubble fueled by speculators. Bubbles pop. Do you really want to be that dumba** who makes some other guy rich?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule Yes that is the way to go.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
So just out of curiosity there was something wrong and very dangerous about the run from $78-584 in AAPL or the run from $1-12 in F in 2009?

What does evaluating what happened after the fact have to do with managing risk before the fact?

You can't go back in time knowing what you know now... so would you focus on trying to predict future performance, or on insulating yourself against excessive risk going forward by finding presently underpriced securities?

Let me put it another way: If we both sold the stock today, but I bought it at a price $100 below the price you did, because I had waited for the right opportunity when the stock was in fact underpriced... who walks away with the bigger return? I do.

All else being equal, there's nothing better about estimating intrinsic value less conservatively than the next guy. The strategy is to be a tightwad in your acquisitions... and to sell to the next guy, not be him.
 

PeterQVenkman

macrumors 68020
Mar 4, 2005
2,023
0
Apple cannot be stopped.

It doesn't eat. It doesn't sleep. And it absolutely will not stop until you are DEAD.

T1_Kyle_Reese_defends_Sarah.JPG
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Putting too much into one stock -- no matter how great it is -- violates what is probably the most important (and simplest) rule of sound investment strategy: DIVERSIFY

I would slightly amend this. Diversification isn't the most important rule. Protection of principal is. Diversification is only one of several methods to do so... and it's not necessarily the best. You could conceivably select 200 different industries and still have paid too much for every single security acquisition in each of those industries.

The second important rule is pursuing adequate, not stratospheric returns. Stratospheric returns are few and far between, and expose the first rule to tremendous risk as well. Buffett once famously said "Any number times zero is still zero." That means that if you risk $500,000 in principal going after a 25% return and you lose it all... that $0k you're left with is $0k times any potential return you can go after. But even one dollar at two percent will earn me more of a return than every dollar of principal you ever lost.

"An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis, promises safety of principal and an adequate return. Operations not meeting these requirements are speculative." - Benjamin Graham
 
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