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VitaminD

macrumors regular
Jul 13, 2011
116
0
New York
To return to my own, completely unscientific biases, I have to add... since when was finance a science??!?! :confused: :eek:

I have no idea how it was that NAG deduced or assumed that I was a scientist considering that I listed 4 fields which use Windows without inclining to any. But it was flattering none the less. :)
 

SPUY767

macrumors 68020
Jun 22, 2003
2,041
131
GA
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Samuriajackon said:
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Acer lost 22%!?!?

Acer sold a ton of netbooks last year, and while these are a third the price of iPads, they count as pc shipments. Not so many this year, so they lost a ton of market.
 

richardsonrs

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2010
238
135
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All I see. 89.3% are still windows pc's. Don't get to excited fanboys. Apple will never equalize the market against PCs. Especially considering their ridiculous price point for essentially same hardware. And now that the they are selling their new OS for 30 bucks it's even more glaring how stupidly overpriced the hardware is.
 

Digitalclips

macrumors 65816
Mar 16, 2006
1,475
36
Sarasota, Florida
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All I see. 89.3% are still windows pc's. Don't get to excited fanboys. Apple will never equalize the market against PCs. Especially considering their ridiculous price point for essentially same hardware. And now that the they are selling their new OS for 30 bucks it's even more glaring how stupidly overpriced the hardware is.

If you are going to troll at least learn the difference between 'too' and 'to'.
 

ArkhamNative

macrumors newbie
Jan 25, 2010
10
0
"Media Tablet"?

Is that what they're calling the iPad's product category? "Media Tablets"?? Yuck. And for those of us who remember the "Tablet PCs", double-yuck!

I prefer "iPads & iPad clones" ;) :D
 

kallisti

macrumors 68000
Apr 22, 2003
1,751
6,670
If Apple sells about 950 million computers and nobody buys a Windows machine during that time, the market share will be even. How long do you think it will be before this happens?

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure market share is based on sales, not on established base. So if Apple sold 1 computer and nobody bought a Windows machine during that time, then Apple would be reported to have 100% market share.

Years ago people used to argue that Apple's computers last longer and aren't replaced nearly as often, leading to a larger established base than market share numbers would imply.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
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All I see. 89.3% are still windows pc's. Don't get to excited fanboys. Apple will never equalize the market against PCs. Especially considering their ridiculous price point for essentially same hardware. And now that the they are selling their new OS for 30 bucks it's even more glaring how stupidly overpriced the hardware is.

Daimler-Benz will never sell as many cars as all the other car makers combined, so what are you complaining about?

Now to the contents of your post: First an insult: "Don't get to excited fanboys". There are certain forum rules that don't allow me to insult you back, but to be proper insulting you need to write "fanbois". What exactly does "equalize the market" mean? English is not my first language, but I slightly suspect that that wouldn't help me understanding.

Since lilo777 informed us that the sales are only so good because so many people buy Macs to run Windows, Apple's price points can't be too bad. Actually, some people seem to find them really attractive. So maybe the problem is not in the object of desire, but in the eye of the beholder. You just can't see what others can see.

And lastly, Apple very generously offers an upgrade from the previous to the latest version of its operating system to all its faithful customers for just 30 dollars. Very generously. Now please explain to us how you draw conclusions about the hardware price from such a generous offer. Especially since Apple doesn't have a hardware price. When you buy a Macintosh computer, the price you pay is for hardware, for the best quality and service according to study after study, the best operating system that money can buy, and the knowledge that you will be able to upgrade to a newer version of the OS at a very low cost. Contrary to your unexplainable beliefs, a low price for OS upgrades actually makes the Macintosh more valuable and justifies the price.

I forgot: Most PCs ship full to the brim with crapware. It is so bad that some sellers offer to remove the crapware for you for a cost of $50 or so. Not necessary on the Macintosh. And PCs require the use of anti-virus software to keep running, another annual cost that you don't have with a Macintosh and that justifies the price.

Shall I put the boot in a bit more? The Gartner numbers are unit sales. One $199 netbook = 1 sale. One Mac Pro with 12 cores and 32 GB of RAM = 1 sale. By revenue, Apple is quite at the top in the USA. By profit (taking profits from laptop, desktop and workstation sales which is what is counted here), Apple is the leader.
 

richardsonrs

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2010
238
135
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Digitalclips said:
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All I see. 89.3% are still windows pc's. Don't get to excited fanboys. Apple will never equalize the market against PCs. Especially considering their ridiculous price point for essentially same hardware. And now that the they are selling their new OS for 30 bucks it's even more glaring how stupidly overpriced the hardware is.

If you are going to troll at least learn the difference between 'too' and 'to'.

Really? That's all you've got? A grammar mistake? You automatically lose. Not trolling, just stating the facts. Pricing will ALWAYS be Apple's downfall.
 

VitaminD

macrumors regular
Jul 13, 2011
116
0
New York
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Pricing will ALWAYS be Apple's downfall.


I don't think you can consider premium pricing as a "downfall."

As gnasher729 pointed out, Daimler Benz and I add BMW, will never sell as many cars as Toyota given their premium pricing. So? These companies seem to be doing just fine. Just as Apple is doing just fine.

Will Apple PC US market share match or overtake Windows based PC manufacturer US market share (such as HP or Dell) in the next 5 years? No, not likely.
 

richardsonrs

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2010
238
135
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While I somewhat agree with the car analogy it is a bit flawed. If BMW was putting Chevy parts in it's BMW body and charging twice the price of Chevy then it would be a perfect analogy. They aren't doing that but Apple is. That's all I'm saying. Not once did I knock their products. They are awesome, people love them, they last. They have issues as all products do but overall they are great. You feel good paying 1000 extra for an Apple logo on a nice case and that's fine but 89.3% of purchasers do not. And it will very likely always be that way.
 

jlmitnick

macrumors regular
Sep 22, 2009
169
0
I don't get this whole mac vs. pc debate anyway. Don't a lot of people have macs and PCs at this point? And they're so similar anyway. Both OSes are great and just about never crash now. It's like the couple people who are absolutely brand loyal to just macs, or just pcs, feel it necessary to justify their irrational fanboyism. Reminds me of Xbox360 vs. PS3 guys.
 

richardsonrs

macrumors regular
Jul 1, 2010
238
135
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@gnasher My reasoning for saying the price drop for the OS shows how overpriced the hardware is, is simple. Part of Apple's draw for many people is the OS. it certainly isn't the internal components anymore as they are the same as in PCs which are significantly cheaper than their Apple counterparts. Now that the OS is so cheap why is the hardware still the same price? You can't really answer that question logically.
 

kallisti

macrumors 68000
Apr 22, 2003
1,751
6,670
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While I somewhat agree with the car analogy it is a bit flawed. If BMW was putting Chevy parts in it's BMW body and charging twice the price of Chevy then it would be a perfect analogy. They aren't doing that but Apple is. That's all I'm saying. Not once did I knock their products. They are awesome, people love them, they last. They have issues as all products do but overall they are great. You feel good paying 1000 extra for an Apple logo on a nice case and that's fine but 89.3% of purchasers do not. And it will very likely always be that way.

The bolded part may be a bit misleading. 89.3% of all purchasers in the US seem to agree with you, but a very sizable portion of that is for business and not home use. It's possible in theory that Apple market share among home users is much higher than 10.7%.

I wasn't able to find any numbers doing a quick google search. The closest I found was a 2009 report stating that 12% of all US homes have an Apple computer (link). This is 2 years old and may not apply now, but it is at least food for thought.
 

Sackvillenb

macrumors 6502a
Mar 1, 2011
573
2
Canada! \m/
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While I somewhat agree with the car analogy it is a bit flawed. If BMW was putting Chevy parts in it's BMW body and charging twice the price of Chevy then it would be a perfect analogy. They aren't doing that but Apple is. That's all I'm saying. Not once did I knock their products. They are awesome, people love them, they last. They have issues as all products do but overall they are great. You feel good paying 1000 extra for an Apple logo on a nice case and that's fine but 89.3% of purchasers do not. And it will very likely always be that way.

Your "perfect analogy" is not perfect. Are there some "chevy" parts being put into a "bmw" body? Sure. The mac hard drive is not better than a pc hard drive. But there are other differences. The "nice case" is more than an aesthetic difference: for me, having a solid metal body is definitely preferable to a flimsy plastic one, for durability reasons. Also, the detail reproduced by Apple screens is far better than most other laptops and monitors (for the consumer market anyway, I don't mean with respect to super fancy and expensive graphic design monitors). And don't forget the OS. It really does run more efficiently and requires far less troubleshooting (and don't get me wrong: I do know how to troubleshoot windows, but I don't have time to waste on that sort of thing). I have multiple mac's, and I've NEVER had to troubleshoot a single one for anything. Can't say that about any of my windows boxes. And there are also many details in the design that people like. Small things like the magnetic adapter, and a really really nice touchpad (nicest one I've ever used). These little things add up.

And all of the things I've mentioned add up to create what a Mac product is, and that's why you're paying more. And that's not even couting their stellar customer service, which is far beyond anything else I've come across.

Now I'm not a fanboy at all. I look at things very objectively, especially when it comes to spending my hard earned money.

Are Macs expensive? Sure. Are some of them overpriced? Yes. (Mac Pro and white Macbook I'm looking at you! And maybe the mac mini too).

But look at the iMac, and compare it to the price of similar all-in-one pc's. The price is not very different. (you can't compare them to tower desktops, it's a different category).

There's more to a computer than just the parts that go into it.

My main point is you can't just make blanket statements about a company's products while ignoring many specific facets of these products. You have to look at all parts of the package and see the whole picture. Apple's growth has been tremendous, so they're doing something right (and it's not just marketing, because if they fooled someone into buying an overpriced product, that person would never buy another Apple product... but consumers are seeing that they ARE getting something for the extra cost, and they keep coming back).

Now, you do have a very valid point that in some ways Apple's high price points are hurting them. But not that much, not yet anyway, as evidenced by their rapid growth. I do think that they would sell more products if they had better price points, especially for their introductory models. But that's a whole other issue!

Every product you can buy has different price points. You can get a cheap car, or a fancy one. You can buy a $5 steak or a $10 steak or a $30 steak.

Wether the benefits of the more expensive product are worth it or not depend on the individual consumer. I don't need the leather seats in a BMW, although they are nice. But I would enjoy the smoother and more powerful ride (and with this analogy, keep in mind that pure horsepower does not equal speed if you have an inefficient vehicle).

Again, it's not just about specs. It's about design, quality, software, attention to detail, support, and customer service, among other things. The combination of all these things make Apple products... into Apple products!
 

Sackvillenb

macrumors 6502a
Mar 1, 2011
573
2
Canada! \m/
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@gnasher My reasoning for saying the price drop for the OS shows how overpriced the hardware is, is simple. Part of Apple's draw for many people is the OS. it certainly isn't the internal components anymore as they are the same as in PCs which are significantly cheaper than their Apple counterparts. Now that the OS is so cheap why is the hardware still the same price? You can't really answer that question logically.

Sorry but that doesn't really make any sense. (And please don't take offence to me saying that, that's not my intention, seriously).

Yes, the OS is a big draw for people... but the price of an OS is completely unrelated to the price of the hardware... One does not affect the other. You don't need to answer the question "logically", because there is no logic to the question! Does the price of guitar stings related to the price of the guitar you put them on? No. They are independent. Same for the OS.

And while the Os is a big draw for people... they get the OS when they buy the computer anyway... and then they have the option for a cheap upgrade if they want the newer OS whenever that comes out later.

I think you also need to remember that Apple is more of a hardware company than they are a software company. They make most of their money from selling hardware and devices.

Look at Microsoft: they are the opposite. They are primarily a software company. And they charge you $200 to $300 or more for an OS! For a single license, I might add. So what does that say about the price of Windows hardware? Well... it doesn't say very much. Because hardware and software are 2 different things. They are not really related to one another.

And either way, a $30 OS upgrade is a good thing, so I don't see how or why you are using that as a negative thing. Saying Mac's are expensive is a valid statement on it's own.
 

the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
The funny thing is Apple stopped competing with the other hardware manufacturers. The are in the race to the bottom. While Apple is in the race to the best product out there. And which one has more profits? Hmmmmm :).

So I'm sure Apple would not care they are third. The only care about their profits. Apple have worked out the art of selling less then the competition but making more profits.
 

VenusianSky

macrumors 65816
Aug 28, 2008
1,290
47
In summary, PC shipments increased 2.3 percent from the same period last year. What exactly does "post-PC" mean anyways?
 

doctor-don

macrumors 68000
Dec 26, 2008
1,604
336
Georgia USA
Evidence to back this up?

Count me as one who does not / will not run Windoz on my Mac Pro.

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What would you expect for a low-end, cheaply-made computer?

Acer lost 22%!?!?

Not too surprising.... little story: before I left my retail job a few months ago, I noticed their newer computers were becoming the most RMAed products we had. There was one day we sold two of their newer model laptops (can't remember the model number exactly.... but I think it ended in 4646? 4640? something like that), and they both were DOA. It got so crazy one day our manager called up a store down the road and they were having the same issues with the same model.

I worked there for over a year and for about 11 months we only had maybe 3 or 4 of their comps DOA, then all of this sudden... boom. Makes me wonder if they are having manufacturing issues.

In order to save money, they - like other companies around the world who are feeling the financial crunch - are reducing the amount of solder used in the manufacture of their electronics. This leads to failure of connections when those devices are subjected to vibration (even shipping causes vibration), bumps, and temperature fluctuations.

Hopefully, Apple will not resort to doing business with suppliers who are skimping on ANYTHING in the manufacturing process.
 

doctor-don

macrumors 68000
Dec 26, 2008
1,604
336
Georgia USA
Did anyone mention that AAPL is up AGAIN - close to $360?

Naysayers had remarked that Apple would be going down since the health of Steve Jobs was evident in the last televised WWDC. Personally, I saw little change, and I hope his health can improve; but I don't see him looking as robust as a 40-year-old Steve Jobs.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Really? That's all you've got? A grammar mistake? You automatically lose. Not trolling, just stating the facts. Pricing will ALWAYS be Apple's downfall.

No grammar mistake. :D The missing comma was a grammar mistake, "to" instead of "too" is spelling, not grammar.

And trolling, not stating facts. Apple prices its products just right to give their competitors no room to breathe. Macs are priced for maximum profit - the only computer that makes any decent profit at all. iPod, iPhone, iPad, all priced to perfection so that nobody has a chance to undercut Apple in the premium market, and nobody makes any decent money if they charge the same as Apple.

Lets get to 15% first!!! :)

Quote from Steve Jobs, not many years ago: "Five done, 95 to go. ". Now it's 89.3 to go.
 

scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
Most converts run Windows on their new Macs anyways. This chart shows market share of units (i.e. computers) not OS installations.

Where do you get THAT statistic? Your imagination?

It seems highly unlikely that a "convert" would want to install the same old Windows OS that they are running away from. Why cripple a Mac?
 
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