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the8thark

macrumors 601
Apr 18, 2011
4,628
1,735
But Apples hasn't said anything about this. Right now it is just some guy telling everyone what he thinks. That's the whole point!

That's how every single rumour on this website works. It's always X random person says Apple will or wont do something. And Apple always says nothing about it all till it's a 100% certainty of happening or not happening then they let the public know. Just people y trying to guess what Apple will or wont do.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
But I don't think a stock split really pulls in enough new retail investors to make any difference. The folks who care about the absolute size of a stock price just don't control enough money in their investments to do anything. And this is especially the case for a company like Apple that has a market cap of hundreds of billions. The only small thing I think it does is signal that the board doesn't think it is about to be embarrassed with a stock that gets crushed soon after the split.

Curiously enough, this is precisely what happened the last time AAPL split. The stock split 2:1, and not long after, fell into the low teens and remained there for a long time. Not down into the range where delisting was a real possibility, but I do recall some talk about it getting there. If it had, that would've be more than embarrassing to the company. I suspect the board decided then that splits weren't worth the trouble.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
You're obviously a smart guy. You had to know that i meant the fundamental valuation of AAPL is lower than that of other companies with a higher rate of share dilution. MSFT for example has 8 billion shares, yet trades at P/E of 15. AAPL has 1 billion shares, and is valued at a rate of just 10 times earnings.

I think we're talking at cross purposes.

First let's nail down some definitions. You're not talking about value when you use P/E ratios. Price is not value. As Warren Buffett famously said, "Price is what you pay, value is what you get."

Microsofts price is at a much higher premium to earnings than Apple... That isn't a reflection of the dilution of equity from the split because both sides of that ratio are per share. All it is is a reflection of how many times earnings buyers are dumb enough to pay for Microsoft regardless of what fraction of ownership each individual share represents.

The P/E ratio would have remained the same just before and after that split. Price may run even further away from earnings and/or tangible book value after a split but while that's reducing the dilution of price it's INCREASING the dilution of value.

Why? Because paying 15 times earnings for something means you're getting less value than when you pay ten times earnings. Or you could use Price to Tangible Book (P/B) and see that Microsoft is trading at 4.2 times their book value, whereas Apple's trading at 3.47 times their book value.

But this is where we have to come back to comparing Apple to Apple.... What is the effect on price and value if Apple has a split? The immediate effect is price per share is split, so that's dilution. The aftereffect if price increases is that value becomes diluted. That's true whether the shares split or not if the price to earnings or price to book ratios increase... But as splits are designed to attract speculators, there's a probability that the discrepancy will accelerate after a split.

An increase in premium (value dilution) is useful for a seller who wants to dispose of their shares, but it's not good for a prospective buyer. What a buyer should be doing is finding securities that are priced at a discount to their value. By itself, P/E isn't part of that valuation exercise because you're paying for the total operating value of the company... you're not just buying the milk, you're buying the cow (and therefore also the cow's future output of milk).
 
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Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
The more panicky retail investors who are in over their heads and have to cash out after a 30% drop because they can't afford to lose their retirement savings, then the better for folks who can take advantage of that.

But if the market is saturated with panicky retail speculators (they don't fit Graham's definition of "investor" at all), like the housing market was saturated with poorly qualified buyers who defaulted all at once, then you've got a potential catastrophe on your hands... Because that price tanks and then you snatch it up, who's left standing with the capacity buy from you?

You don't ever want to be the only solvent player in the game.... I think the belief pervades that the stock market is just a casino. But that's a dangerous attitude. There are many things at stake if one plays casino with stocks, with mortgage backed securities, and so on.

Real, sustainable growth compounds. Playing rollercoaster very routinely exposes principal to massive losses.

Think of it this way: The guy who chugs along at 5.5% annually but rarely loses a dollar of principal will be way ahead of the game compared to the guy chasing after 20% returns on extremely volatile securities if every few rolls of the dice he loses principal.

Every dollar of lost principal is (1 + r)^nt future dollars lost.

Any number times zero is still zero. The way to win the game in the long run (and you can ask the likes of Buffett, Schloss, Munger, Eviellard, Perlmeter, etc. this) is to seek price appreciation not by means of speculative inflation but by solid growth in tangible operating value of the underlying business. As a company's stock price gets further and further out of proportion with its operating value, the downside risk of loss of principal escalates.
 

FluJunkie

macrumors 6502a
Jul 17, 2007
618
1
Your personal finances are not of my concern.

Oh please. You give out crappy advice based on an arbitrary threshold, and then when you're called on it being bad advice, suddenly personal finance is "none of your concern"?


But yes if you want to play in a game and you want to win then you want more bad players in it. Like playing poker in Vegas on a Saturday night. The more tourists in town for a wild weekend (that includes three hours of poker while knocking back drinks) sitting at your table the better. The more panicky retail investors who are in over their heads and have to cash out after a 30% drop because they can't afford to lose their retirement savings, then the better for folks who can take advantage of that. And I'm much closer to being part of that crowd than I am to being a hedge fund guy taking a million dollar position.

Only if speculation is your investing style. If you're a buy-and-hold investor, having "more bad players in it" when they're in your holding is a bad thing - even if they're not enough to cause volatility, their movement can amplify the volatility that's there.

But generally, I agree - I doubt the split would do much of anything.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
But if the market is saturated with panicky retail speculators (they don't fit Graham's definition of "investor" at all), like the housing market was saturated with poorly qualified buyers who defaulted all at once, then you've got a potential catastrophe on your hands... Because that price tanks and then you snatch it up, who's left standing with the capacity buy from you?

Referencing another comment, congrats on your great year (I assume you mean 2012). My mutual funds were nicely up as well. :D But I suspect a 10% gain isn't what you mean by a great year.

I think you lose me in your response to P/E because I don't think I see the difference between Earnings and Operational Value (which seems to be what you are seeking when looking at companies). I'm not buying Apple for P/E reasons myself. I'm buying it because I think the smartphone and tablet market are and will be huge and I think Apple will continue make huge sales into those markets for as far as the eye can see. The current stock price seems to assume that phone sales will drop quickly and tablet sales will either plateau or also drop. Otherwise, if Apple just does what it has done, then it will bring in cash flow that makes this stock price look cheap. But I'd like to see bigger dividends to give me income during what I hope to be a long and fun ride.

As for the comment here about retail investors. Avatar you don't need to worry about retail investors, certainly no one on the street is. The Mom & Pops of this world just don't have enough wealth to be relevant anymore, even if there are a lot of them (us, I'm closer to Mom & Pop than a hedge funder). In the real estate market they made a difference, but a house is an asset that fairly quickly has to be occupied or it is useless. And the rich can't just collect houses and store them for later use, so they can't soak up extras as easily. But they can do that with stock. Small time investors panicking can move the market, or course, but they can't tank it anymore. They just don't have the wealth to matter. And certainly not in the long term. The wealth gap is increasing year after year and it is the rich and their investors that move things with million dollar positions.

So don't worry, there will always be plenty of liquidity. It is just getting concentrated. And as it gets concentrated it gets smarter (professionally managed), faster (professionally managed 24/7) and more flexible (long term returns and high risk are fine since it is divorced from any actual human needs like providing for retirement or necessary living expenses).

----------

Only if speculation is your investing style. If you're a buy-and-hold investor, having "more bad players in it" when they're in your holding is a bad thing - even if they're not enough to cause volatility, their movement can amplify the volatility that's there.

But generally, I agree - I doubt the split would do much of anything.

Hmm, if you are a buy and hold, then you don't care about volatility except when you come in and get out. Would volatility from bad investors be a problem because they are more likely to get in your way (which is actually what happened to some of my friends when they got crowded out of the inflated real estate market in the mid-2000s) by buying up a stock (randomly because they are bad, not for the right reasons like you are trying to do) and therefor making it harder for you to get in?

Anyway, I think retail investors are too small and too random to be moving the markets anymore. The markets move on a daily basis because of the big investors and on a yearly basis because of the tides of history. Retail investors are doing it.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Referencing another comment, congrats on your great year (I assume you mean 2012). My mutual funds were nicely up as well. :D But I suspect a 10% gain isn't what you mean by a great year.

10% is behind what the S&P did this year... it's still respectable, above the norm, but given the management expense and risk exposure of mutual funds you would have benefitted more by sitting on a no-load index fund over the same period.

I think you lose me in your response to P/E because I don't think I see the difference between Earnings and Operational Value (which seems to be what you are seeking when looking at companies).

Earnings is an item that can be affected by cash flows from finance and investing activities, and other intangible activities that have no bearing on the operational effectiveness of a business. What ultimately you're trying to ascertain when you want to know if a business is good is how good it is at selling the thing that it specializes in. Any company can offset earnings with disposition of some assets, borrowing money, issuing new equity, etc. but that's not generally a sustainable competitive advantage. Coca-Cola (just an example) has tremendous brand equity because people like its beverages, and the fruits of that are easily measurable, the financial reports easily digestible, because there's a direct relationship between their working capital (current assets minus current liabilities, i.e. net current assets) and their operating cash. Operating cash, in short, is just a way of paring out the things that puff up earnings beyond what the company basically does for a living that, ideally, it does better than its competitors.

My concern when looking at a business is, in that moment am I getting more than what I paid for or not. My definition of "operating value" is a combination of the working capital (net current assets) plus projected operating cash flows several quarters forward, discounted to net present value (using Weighted Average Cost of Capital as the discount rate, in Apple's case that figure is approximately 12%). I don't use total assets minus total liabilities because how many golden toilets a company has at their headquarters, or how many square feet of office space it owns has no bearing, necessarily, on how good it is at generating operating cash flow. And, if I can find something closer to operating value rather than book value plus discounted cash flows (i.e. intrinsic value), it's an absolute steal. Why pay 95 cents for a dollar of assets if you can pay 65 cents?

I'm buying it because I think the smartphone and tablet market are and will be huge and I think Apple will continue make huge sales into those markets for as far as the eye can see. The current stock price seems to assume that phone sales will drop quickly and tablet sales will either plateau or also drop. Otherwise, if Apple just does what it has done, then it will bring in cash flow that makes this stock price look cheap. But I'd like to see bigger dividends to give me income during what I hope to be a long and fun ride.

The only thing here that interests me are the dividends, but most of my other securities that I purchased at a much steeper discount than Apple affords (Apple is not trading at a discount at all right now) have already filled that need. The talk about what Apple might do is all speculation... and that just never plays a role in my valuations. There's a couple of assumptions involved, but they're not the same as speculation because they're based on the company's own estimation of what it expects to do given its current sales funnel (every company has some idea of its supply chain, inventory and turnaround/sales cycle for several quarters ahead)... but I always pick a price below that mark, what Graham called a margin of safety, so that if my assumptions are off I'm still exceptionally safe most of the time.

As for the comment here about retail investors. Avatar you don't need to worry about retail investors, certainly no one on the street is. The Mom & Pops of this world just don't have enough wealth to be relevant anymore, even if there are a lot of them (us, I'm closer to Mom & Pop than a hedge funder). In the real estate market they made a difference, but a house is an asset that fairly quickly has to be occupied or it is useless. And the rich can't just collect houses and store them for later use, so they can't soak up extras as easily. But they can do that with stock. Small time investors panicking can move the market, or course, but they can't tank it anymore. They just don't have the wealth to matter. And certainly not in the long term. The wealth gap is increasing year after year and it is the rich and their investors that move things with million dollar positions.

I was commenting on retail investors for someone else's benefit. I'm one of the guys that doesn't worry about what the market is doing on any given day. But don't underestimate the accretive effect of the myriad discount (read: daytrader) brokers... the e-trades, scottrades, etc. Combined with automated trading they've introduced levels of risk that never existed before... but they still move in herds, and it's still possible for shrewd investors to find value amidst the chaos and benefit from transient panic or exuberance. I just don't worry about what the rest of them are doing because the fact of a company's value exceeding its price is determined by the very same math whether you're in a bull market or a bear market. Buying a dollar for sixty cents is always a good thing no matter what everyone else is doing...

So don't worry, there will always be plenty of liquidity.

Again, I think you misunderstand me... I'm not worried about anything. I'm also not a fan of liquidity. The harder it is to obtain something, the more its value increases. I like to obtain things that become increasingly scarce, so liquidity is not really what I'm looking for. What I was saying is that you don't want a market reaching its critical mass of insolvent speculators... that's totally different from any one security having extremely low supply in a market loaded with demand.

Fortunately, my time horizons are very long term... so temporary contractions of demand don't bother me at all. Access to capital from the institutional buyers that want what I found may tighten periodically but over time here are always enough entrants to leave no shortage of demand for the securities that I might wish to dispose of when I've achieved a satisfactory return.
 

user418

macrumors 6502a
Aug 22, 2010
671
13
Stock splits create the perception that a stock is more accessible to small "Main Street" retail investors.

Retail investors are notoriously bad. Adding more of them is essentially saying "You know what this stock needs? More panicky herd animals who follow trends and have a tendency to buy high and sell low."

So are you saying only the big money guys and the institutional investors should be allowed to play the game? Seems they already make the rules and dictate the terms anyway.

Guess I just don't get it all. I'm not much of an investor and tend to try and save more than I spend and live within my means.
 

Raineer

macrumors member
Apr 26, 2008
64
46
If they split it I'm buying it.
I saw lots of replies making fun of this, but it isn't a bad tactic.

My father and I both worked at big blue for decades. For roughly 35 years they would split almost every time the stock price got up to 125, and people would "feel it's a bargain" at 50-60. In one career he caught 9 splits like that, and the shares were cheap enough that it always seemed to drive it higher, given it's reputation.

The fact is that Apple could probably help its stock's image among the folks who aren't investing thousands at a time, but also aren't simply buying tenths of a share in each paycheck via 401(k) or similar vehicles. Regular folks are more likely to buy if it's more affordable, regardless of the obvious "trading 4 quarters for a dollar" analogy.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
10% is behind what the S&P did this year... it's still respectable, above the norm, but given the management expense and risk exposure of mutual funds you would have benefitted more by sitting on a no-load index fund over the same period.

Oh don't worry that is about what I do. That 10% is blended return that includes some money market funds and some bonds. Yes the stock funds did much better than 10% (Small Caps FTW!) The handful of stocks that I buy individually are not, except for my big position (for me) in Apple, large enough positions to be meaningful. It is kind of just for fun.

My concern when looking at a business is, in that moment am I getting more than what I paid for or not. My definition of "operating value" is a combination of the working capital (net current assets) plus projected operating cash flows several quarters forward, discounted to net present value (using Weighted Average Cost of Capital as the discount rate, in Apple's case that figure is approximately 12%). I don't use total assets minus total liabilities because how many golden toilets a company has at their headquarters, or how many square feet of office space it owns has no bearing, necessarily, on how good it is at generating operating cash flow. And, if I can find something closer to operating value rather than book value plus discounted cash flows (i.e. intrinsic value), it's an absolute steal. Why pay 95 cents for a dollar of assets if you can pay 65 cents?

I was commenting on retail investors for someone else's benefit. I'm one of the guys that doesn't worry about what the market is doing on any given day. But don't underestimate the accretive effect of the myriad discount (read: daytrader) brokers... the e-trades, scottrades, etc. Combined with automated trading they've introduced levels of risk that never existed before... but they still move in herds, and it's still possible for shrewd investors to find value amidst the chaos and benefit from transient panic or exuberance. I just don't worry about what the rest of them are doing because the fact of a company's value exceeding its price is determined by the very same math whether you're in a bull market or a bear market. Buying a dollar for sixty cents is always a good thing no matter what everyone else is doing...

Again, I think you misunderstand me... I'm not worried about anything. I'm also not a fan of liquidity. The harder it is to obtain something, the more its value increases. I like to obtain things that become increasingly scarce, so liquidity is not really what I'm looking for. What I was saying is that you don't want a market reaching its critical mass of insolvent speculators... that's totally different from any one security having extremely low supply in a market loaded with demand.

Okay, I get better what you mean about operational income instead of just looking at the earnings that drop out of the financial statements. You don't care what GAAP says the income is because there can be game playing in that number. You want to look at the income that comes from the thing that makes the Company you are investing in the company it is. So sales from the core business.

Nice chatting with you on these points. I'm sure we will do it again. I will certainly be the one screaming that Apple should raise its dividend when their next quarterly report comes out and we see that the cash pile has risen to nearly $150 billion. And since I've doubled my investment in Apple this year, I'm going to scream even louder. ;) Not that it does me any good.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
So are you saying only the big money guys and the institutional investors should be allowed to play the game? Seems they already make the rules and dictate the terms anyway.

Guess I just don't get it all. I'm not much of an investor and tend to try and save more than I spend and live within my means.

I know the question was directed at flujunkie but I'll offer my own thoughts here as well.

I don't think he/she is suggesting that individual speculators should not play at all, but individual securities aren't the only way to play.

What I would say is that I think that most people who play with an E*trade or Scottrade account, etc. are exposing themselves to unnecessary risk. Whether they're really a risk for the rest of us, I don't really feel that.

The masses, whether they're hedge fund managers or the guy down the street playing with $25,000 in a Scottrade account, often lack proper perspective and sometimes even basic common sense. They move in herds, rather than making individual informed decisions. A lot of equity analysts make mistakes in their valuations, so it only stands to reason that people with even less information at their disposal are at an even larger disadvantage.

It's true that a minority of fund managers beat the S&P 500 index consistently... So my question to individuals who have less than $100,000 to invest, and don't have the benefit of an education in finance, operations management, etc. and years of experience in business valuation, is: "Why would you unnecessarily risk your hard earned money on individual securities when you can sit on an index fund that will, in all probability, outperform your picks every year for the next thirty years?"

The answer invariably comes down to ego/pride... It's not really hip watercooler talk to say, "Yeah, I'm sitting on an index fund for the next thirty years" compared to "Hey, I just bought 1000 shares of that hot new tech stock!"

A shrewd investor cares about none of these things... only preservation of capital and a reasonable, sustainable rate of return.

You and I are in the same boat in that we both live within our means. But it's surprising how many people don't understand the power that carries... and they don't seem to understand that every dollar of principal they risk is a dollar plus years of compounded interest that they might lose. They sort of treat it as monopoly money.

I had my wake up call in my twenties, fortunately, and learned that everything can go up in smoke overnight... since then I've embraced a much more conservative approach to investing. I can't conscionably recommend individual securities to the average person because they don't have the amount of capital necessary to minimize risk better than a no-load index fund.

I've been doing this for twenty years, have participated in IPO's, made half-million dollar trades, and I still keep a significant amount of money in index funds.... so, there you are.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Oh don't worry that is about what I do.

I don't. It was just a thought... I do the same adjustments during periods where I've accumulated more cash but just don't see the value opportunities I'm looking for... I'll add more weight to an index fund holding until I find something I feel pretty good about.

So sales from the core business.

Not sales per se, but specifically net cash flows from operations... sales, income, revenue and operating cash flow are four different items with four slightly different definitions. This actually tells me a couple of things... not just how good they are at turning inventory to cash, but how fast AND it gives some quantifiable measure of the company's moat as well. My three M's: Money, moat and management. How sound the company is in each of those three categories helps me determine whether it's worth going to the next step and determining if they're underpriced or overpriced relative to operating value.

And since I've doubled my investment in Apple this year, I'm going to scream even louder. ;) Not that it does me any good.

(Full disclosure: I sold my shares of AAPL last year)

I don't feel that their dividend payout is fundamentally more attractive than certain other companies in more stable industries, but I don't always look for a dividend either. If management is better at reinvesting their excess cash to grow tangible book value better than I could with a share of that cash (dividend), then I'd rather they keep the money. This is why Berkshire has been very attractive to long term investors despite not paying a dividend, because I can't think of any scenario where a dollar of earnings would be better spent in my hands rather than Buffett's.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
I don't. It was just a thought... I do the same adjustments during periods where I've accumulated more cash but just don't see the value opportunities I'm looking for... I'll add more weight to an index fund holding until I find something I feel pretty good about.
[Bah, I screwed up the quote feature. Anyway, you know what you wrote.

I had cash in a money market where I park my six month cushion. Now a good chunk of it has gone into Apple.


Not sales per se, but specifically net cash flows from operations... sales, income, revenue and operating cash flow are four different items with four slightly different definitions. This actually tells me a couple of things... not just how good they are at turning inventory to cash, but how fast AND it gives some quantifiable measure of the company's moat as well. My three M's: Money, moat and management. How sound the company is in each of those three categories helps me determine whether it's worth going to the next step and determining if they're underpriced or overpriced relative to operating value.

Yes, I meant cash flow when I said sales. I like your three M's. The moat is an interesting issue. And I wonder as so many of our companies become more and more digital, how much more important it is going to be to have a moat. Not to mention as competition becomes more global. We are clearly just at the start of global competition. And major players, especially in Asia, are just getting going over the last 20 or 30 years.
(Full disclosure: I sold my shares of AAPL last year)

I don't feel that their dividend payout is fundamentally more attractive than certain other companies in more stable industries, but I don't always look for a dividend either. If management is better at reinvesting their excess cash to grow tangible book value better than I could with a share of that cash (dividend), then I'd rather they keep the money. This is why Berkshire has been very attractive to long term investors despite not paying a dividend, because I can't think of any scenario where a dollar of earnings would be better spent in my hands rather than Buffett's.

I hope you got out at a good time.

If Apple doubled its dividend, then I think it would be both a great income stock and a possible growth stock. And while I trust management there to make great products that get sold for lots of money, they can't just pump all this cash into the innovation machine and they aren't Buffett and able to go out and make money doing acquisitions. So as smart as management might be, they clearly can't actually put the capital they have into play. And so the cash pile grows.
 

lildimsum7

macrumors regular
Aug 17, 2009
127
0
And I wonder as so many of our companies become more and more digital, how much more important it is going to be to have a moat. Not to mention as competition becomes more global. We are clearly just at the start of global competition. And major players, especially in Asia, are just getting going over the last 20 or 30 years.

I hope Apple can sustain their 3 year average earnings for the next 10 years. If that's possible, Apple will be in terrific shape in the future, no doubt. But if their earnings in the next 10 years turns out to be the average of the last 4 or 5 years, then today's price is still too high. We'll see how they do against competition. I did a quick Buffett style valuation in my head. Now I understand why he doesn't buy Apple - so much uncertainty about the future.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
I hope Apple can sustain their 3 year average earnings for the next 10 years. If that's possible, Apple will be in terrific shape in the future, no doubt. But if their earnings in the next 10 years turns out to be the average of the last 4 or 5 years, then today's price is still too high. We'll see how they do against competition. I did a quick Buffett style valuation in my head. Now I understand why he doesn't buy Apple - so much uncertainty about the future.

Hmm, you and Avatar are making me a little nervous about my Apple position.

Still, I see no reason why Apple won't be able to continue to sell huge numbers phones and tablets. In some ways there actually isn't any competition for Apple if you think of what they are selling as the iOS experience. They have a monopoly on that. Now if people no longer want the iOS experience, then Apple is in trouble. But they really only need a fraction of the smartphone and tablet market to keep doing what they have been doing. And I don't see either of those markets shrinking anytime soon. 20% of the smartphone market and 30% of the tablet market should be fine and very doable for the long haul.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Yes, I meant cash flow when I said sales. I like your three M's. The moat is an interesting issue. And I wonder as so many of our companies become more and more digital, how much more important it is going to be to have a moat. Not to mention as competition becomes more global. We are clearly just at the start of global competition. And major players, especially in Asia, are just getting going over the last 20 or 30 years.

Moat is even more important in a global economy where artificial barriers to international trade shrink. There have to be real, sustainable competitive advantages to a brand when international politics can't keep out other competitors in certain markets you do business in. So moat remains a big factor in my evaluations.

That and I tend to focus on manufacturing companies because that makes the job of valuation utterly simple.


I hope you got out at a good time.

I sold at $340. Given my cost basis, I was more than satisfied with the result.

If Apple doubled its dividend, then I think it would be both a great income stock and a possible growth stock. And while I trust management there to make great products that get sold for lots of money, they can't just pump all this cash into the innovation machine and they aren't Buffett and able to go out and make money doing acquisitions. So as smart as management might be, they clearly can't actually put the capital they have into play. And so the cash pile grows.

You do make a good point in that this new phase in Apple's management doesn't give me the confidence that I had before (though that has little to do with why I'm not looking at Apple as a buy).

However, they do make a number of small, strategic acquisitions. Two things they excel at better than any of their competitors are:

1. Supply chain management, which benefits from the hordes of excess cash because they can tie up materials to keep competitors costs high. Having the excess cash gives them both a huge cushion against supply chain snafus as well as a very big negotiating chip.

2. Trojan horse acquisition.... Putting Siri together with Nuance created a new paradigm for search that may be a little ahead of its time for compelling adoption but it's going to change the way we think of search, forever. Google had better be very nervous about that, and if they're not then someone needs to get fired over there.

Apple has a huge opportunity in harnessing search heuristics to completely revolutionize productivity with digital devices: If I can tell Siri to book a table at a Dallas restaurant for 7pm, and it goes and does it... which it is fully capable of now, just think what using digital devices will be like five years from now. The concept of an input device will be moot, because the space between your thoughts, actions and results will be removed.

But Apple needs to understand that's what they're sitting on. In the past, they'd made mistakes... Sculley didn't know what to do with Hypercard, and yet in 1985, Cray researchers were using it to interface, over ethernet, with their X-1 supercomputers... Let me put that another way: Apple had hypertext almost ten years before Berners-Lee created HTTP and the World Wide Web... Ironically, Berners-Lee wrote WWW on a NeXT workstation and was inspired in part BY Hypercard. That is probably Apple's single most monumental blunder.

Can Apple leverage Siri? I don't know, but the first card has been played, the game has changed. The same way iPhone raised the bar of expectations with regard to usability of smartphones. They single-handedly killed RIM and Palm, and they're going to destroy Google if they have a 10 year roadmap laid out the way they did with the Intel transition. I still think their biggest bombshell of all time was revealing that the long rumored Marklar project was real...

What bearing does that have on their growth prospects? Nothing particularly outstanding, in my opinion. They'll continue to perform respectably and be a relatively stable blue chip... but their contributions will spur other competitors to move faster (and already have), so they'll be one player among many which is good for the consumer. But they will continue to be a step or two ahead of everyone else because of their adherence to Henry Ford's principle about innovation, "If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said, 'A faster horse.'"

They'll never do as much volume as other manufacturers, but I'm certain that Ferrari doesn't cry that they don't sell as many cars as Ford. The issue now for investors is, as they reach maturity, their terminal value is still lower than their current stock price. So either stock price needs to come down, or they need to substantially grow book value, and they can't do that by issuing larger dividends. Capital needs to be reinvested in strategic acquisitions and partnerships that will bring Siri to the front so that it doesn't matter what form factor their next device takes on.

----------

Hmm, you and Avatar are making me a little nervous about my Apple position.

If you're nervous but you've achieved a satisfactory return, take it. I learned long ago to not keep positions that make me lose any sleep. There are many other fish in the sea at varying depths and of varying species... *shrug*
 

FluJunkie

macrumors 6502a
Jul 17, 2007
618
1
So are you saying only the big money guys and the institutional investors should be allowed to play the game? Seems they already make the rules and dictate the terms anyway.

Guess I just don't get it all. I'm not much of an investor and tend to try and save more than I spend and live within my means.

Being a small retail investor, the answer to this is clearly "No".

However, I am saying the following:

- Small retail investors are terrible at picking individual stocks - this is as true for me as it is for anyone else. I lucked out once.
- Making Apple "more accessible" with a stock split is entirely a perception-based move, it doesn't mathematically do anything.
- I don't want small retail investors who are convinced by something as smoke-and-mirrors-y as a stock split anywhere near anything I own in any significant quantity.

By way of analogy: Herds of bison should exist. But herds of bison sometimes stampede. So I don't particularly want the herd in my living room.
 

laurim

macrumors 68000
Sep 19, 2003
1,985
970
Minnesota USA
Being a small retail investor, the answer to this is clearly "No".

However, I am saying the following:

- Small retail investors are terrible at picking individual stocks - this is as true for me as it is for anyone else. I lucked out once.
- Making Apple "more accessible" with a stock split is entirely a perception-based move, it doesn't mathematically do anything.
- I don't want small retail investors who are convinced by something as smoke-and-mirrors-y as a stock split anywhere near anything I own in any significant quantity.

By way of analogy: Herds of bison should exist. But herds of bison sometimes stampede. So I don't particularly want the herd in my living room.

I would think you would be more nervous about the big institutions buying and selling thousands of shares in nanoseconds all day every day than a few individuals buying 10 shares because they like the company. Did you know they are trying to come up with even faster computers because having computers right on the exchange floor running canned trading programs don't make their trades quickly enough? THAT'S your market uncertainty, not Joe Blow with an eTrade account.
 

user418

macrumors 6502a
Aug 22, 2010
671
13
I would think you would be more nervous about the big institutions buying and selling thousands of shares in nanoseconds all day every day than a few individuals buying 10 shares because they like the company. Did you know they are trying to come up with even faster computers because having computers right on the exchange floor running canned trading programs don't make their trades quickly enough? THAT'S your market uncertainty, not Joe Blow with an eTrade account.


Kind of what I was thinking. Don't see how any small buy/sell actions on my part would greatly impact things much. The few stocks I do own I've held for years and used to put a kid through college. Don't have the guts or resources to be much more than a small investor. However, I do find it all very interesting.
 

lildimsum7

macrumors regular
Aug 17, 2009
127
0
Hmm, you and Avatar are making me a little nervous about my Apple position.

Still, I see no reason why Apple won't be able to continue to sell huge numbers phones and tablets. In some ways there actually isn't any competition for Apple if you think of what they are selling as the iOS experience. They have a monopoly on that. Now if people no longer want the iOS experience, then Apple is in trouble. But they really only need a fraction of the smartphone and tablet market to keep doing what they have been doing. And I don't see either of those markets shrinking anytime soon. 20% of the smartphone market and 30% of the tablet market should be fine and very doable for the long haul.

I think it would be tough for Apple to continue selling a lot. We'll see in Q2 this year. Now that more people own these mobile devices, why would they spend money to buy a new one that does the same thing? With the tech available now, there's really no incentive to upgrade, and the only thing attractive is something different from iOS. Also, more people own smartphones with a 2 year contract, and many are switching to Android. I wouldn't count iOS as a competitive advantage - Apple's profit margin is decreasing, which is a sign of that. I believe Android is the more advanced OS, and that is starting to attract people away from iOS. There's still a market for smartphones, but much less people than in 2009-2011, and much more competitive.
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,676
The Peninsula
reality check

In case nobody is watching the markets - AAPL hit a 52-week low today and closed at just over $430.

Rumours of "stock jumps" are negative....
 

FluJunkie

macrumors 6502a
Jul 17, 2007
618
1
I would think you would be more nervous about the big institutions buying and selling thousands of shares in nanoseconds all day every day than a few individuals buying 10 shares because they like the company. Did you know they are trying to come up with even faster computers because having computers right on the exchange floor running canned trading programs don't make their trades quickly enough? THAT'S your market uncertainty, not Joe Blow with an eTrade account.

It's interesting that you assume they're mutually exclusive. I was also, quite publicly, unhappy when Apple at its highs was the favorite toy of traders and speculators everywhere.

Algorithmic trading does indeed have a great deal to do with market volatility, but Joe Blow and his 10 shares, multiplied by the number of retail traders out there, have the potential not to generate the swings, but make the swings worse.

This is particularly true for something like this - anyone who thinks Apple is "more affordable" because they can buy 10 shares instead of 1 isn't someone I want anywhere near my money.

Kind of what I was thinking. Don't see how any small buy/sell actions on my part would greatly impact things much. The few stocks I do own I've held for years and used to put a kid through college. Don't have the guts or resources to be much more than a small investor. However, I do find it all very interesting.

Panic is a powerful thing, as are the actions of crowds.
 

TallManNY

macrumors 601
Nov 5, 2007
4,742
1,594
You do make a good point in that this new phase in Apple's management doesn't give me the confidence that I had before (though that has little to do with why I'm not looking at Apple as a buy).

However, they do make a number of small, strategic acquisitions. Two things they excel at better than any of their competitors are:

1. Supply chain management, which benefits from the hordes of excess cash because they can tie up materials to keep competitors costs high. Having the excess cash gives them both a huge cushion against supply chain snafus as well as a very big negotiating chip.

2. Trojan horse acquisition.... Putting Siri together with Nuance created a new paradigm for search that may be a little ahead of its time for compelling adoption but it's going to change the way we think of search, forever. Google had better be very nervous about that, and if they're not then someone needs to get fired over there.

Apple has a huge opportunity in harnessing search heuristics to completely revolutionize productivity with digital devices: If I can tell Siri to book a table at a Dallas restaurant for 7pm, and it goes and does it... which it is fully capable of now, just think what using digital devices will be like five years from now. The concept of an input device will be moot, because the space between your thoughts, actions and results will be removed.

But Apple needs to understand that's what they're sitting on. In the past, they'd made mistakes... Sculley didn't know what to do with Hypercard, and yet in 1985, Cray researchers were using it to interface, over ethernet, with their X-1 supercomputers... Let me put that another way: Apple had hypertext almost ten years before Berners-Lee created HTTP and the World Wide Web... Ironically, Berners-Lee wrote WWW on a NeXT workstation and was inspired in part BY Hypercard. That is probably Apple's single most monumental blunder.

Can Apple leverage Siri? I don't know, but the first card has been played, the game has changed. The same way iPhone raised the bar of expectations with regard to usability of smartphones. They single-handedly killed RIM and Palm, and they're going to destroy Google if they have a 10 year roadmap laid out the way they did with the Intel transition. I still think their biggest bombshell of all time was revealing that the long rumored Marklar project was real...

What bearing does that have on their growth prospects? Nothing particularly outstanding, in my opinion. They'll continue to perform respectably and be a relatively stable blue chip... but their contributions will spur other competitors to move faster (and already have), so they'll be one player among many which is good for the consumer. But they will continue to be a step or two ahead of everyone else because of their adherence to Henry Ford's principle about innovation, "If I'd have asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said, 'A faster horse.'"

They'll never do as much volume as other manufacturers, but I'm certain that Ferrari doesn't cry that they don't sell as many cars as Ford. The issue now for investors is, as they reach maturity, their terminal value is still lower than their current stock price. So either stock price needs to come down, or they need to substantially grow book value, and they can't do that by issuing larger dividends. Capital needs to be reinvested in strategic acquisitions and partnerships that will bring Siri to the front so that it doesn't matter what form factor their next device takes on.

----------



If you're nervous but you've achieved a satisfactory return, take it. I learned long ago to not keep positions that make me lose any sleep. There are many other fish in the sea at varying depths and of varying species... *shrug*

Oh, I'm just a little nervous. Not losing sleep though. It is a big position for me to be in for any one stock, but still less than 10% of my total liquid assets. I'm up on my earlier buys and down on this year's buys. So still up plenty overall.

Yes, I remember using Hyper Card back in the early 90s. I think I might of even done a little hyper card programming. It was going to be revolutionary, but all folks seemed to do with it was create these imbedded stories. And then the WWW started taking off and that was the end of Hyper Card.

Siri should be the biggest play. But I find Google Voice has better speech recognition and is faster. I'm slowly starting to do my google searches using the voice input, but it still isn't something I do naturally. I go back and forth remembering that Siri exists and not.

What I'm surprised at is that Siri isn't front and center in OSX yet. AI and voice input is so obviously the future (and every sci-fi story has made this clear, so you don't even have to be a genius to figure this out). So why isn't Apple pushing that forward with OSX as well as iOS? And if Siri is on my iMac at home and doing search for me that does not go through Google, then yes, Google should be very nervous. But Google knows this, that is why it built Android and Chrome, it knows that the big OS companies will increasingly add services directly into their OS, where it will have a competitive native advantage. Google needs its OSs to be a big part of the market so it can do the same.
 
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