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law guy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 17, 2003
997
0
Western Massachusetts
How is this bad for Apple? Think Secret did a no-no and got caught. So Apple is the bad guy? If a site is telling trade secrets from another company to the world, thats not fair to Apple. How would you like it if you worked your butt off for 2 years on a brand new product and then a mole in your company told the world about it before it was ready to be released? Think about that!

I also don't think this Nick kid got paid. He has no reason to get paid. Apple basically slapped him on the wrist and most likely part of the slapping on the wrist was maybe you should shut down your site so more trouble doesn't come for you.

Hard to say that TS did a no-no. It's not an employee, agent, contractor, etc. of Apple and I'm guessing didn't have any sort of obligation to Apple to keep anything it learned about Apple to itself. Apple's case on TS's activity seemed weak at best. The sound bite disseminating trade secrets is over simplified and there really isn't a cause of action there, so there must have been an argument that TS took some action that violated a statute, which may have been a tortured theory. TS likely counter sued Apple. In any event, discovery and depositions against Apple would have been a significant downside, as would the risk of Apple looking a bit like a paper tiger.

There were plenty of reasons for Nick to get paid. If you want the save face and effect of getting the site shut down, that's certainly worth something for a site like TS, which has plenty of advertising and hit traffic. To make that happen, you have Apple siting on $15 billion in cash right now - the kind of money that generates over $2 million in just interest in a single day. Not hard to come up with something attractive that shuts the site down in return.

It's likely that Apple was the side that cared about a confidential term for the settlement. They want the site to go away but the details to be a mystery. It sort of looks like a victory - except to the relatively few techno folks who read on-line sites about Apple.
 

clevin

macrumors G3
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
like we need more secrecy in a computer company, lol, apple the bully. pointless. M$ push me away with its monopoly, apple push me away with its secrecy. both are strangely ugly in this open world. Glad I still have linux as an option.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
So is this good or bad news for MacRumors, free to go after rumors or bad that they will be harder to get. Or are we the next big fish in Steve's eyes.
 

john7jr

macrumors regular
Aug 14, 2003
188
0
For those who haven't followed the issue in detail, ThinkSecret in June pulled the Dec 28, 2004 article that Apple later sued them over, but luckily for us the internet never forgets even if the page is deleted. ;)

So go read for yourself. Did ThinkSecret break the law when they knowingly published trade secrets from an Apple employee? Should Apple have a right to know who broke the law inside their company by revealing the info?

=)
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
Apple has a right to find the mole, the question is how can they do that legally. They can't just go on a witch hunt. They need to do it from within the company.

Had ThinkSecret found the trade secrets on their own then they would be in trouble. Having a 3rd party tell them makes them reporters not stealers.
 

gwangung

macrumors 65816
Apr 9, 2003
1,113
91
The sound bite disseminating trade secrets is over simplified and there really isn't a cause of action there.

Why? Granted, my training in trade secret law is fairly old, but the underpinnings of trade secret law isn't based on contract law like NDAs; it's based on common law, and the right of companies to keep certain information legitimately away from the public. As far as I knew, First Amendment law still recognizes trade secret protections, and can still be applied to journalistic activity.
 

aeaglex07

macrumors 6502
Mar 18, 2007
399
1
United States
Firstly, it is funny that Apple went after someone who was only advertising their "future" products(for free)
and Secondly, good for Nick. For years he has shed some insight onto Apple's oh-so-famous top secret stuff, but he also proved a point which is that Apple makes some kick-a$$ stuff that everyone will probably be excited about.
Was it a bad idea to shut him down? Probably, considering their probable future income, but then again isnt the secrecy more important?;)
 

Stella

macrumors G3
Apr 21, 2003
8,838
6,341
Canada
Those who think that Apple are in the wrong:

Imagine *you* owned a company, developing a potentially ground breaking product. A mole in YOUR company leaks out to an internet news site who publishes the information and , destroying your competitive advantage.

Would you be pisssed? Would you sue the website publishing company? Yes, probably. So, you still think Apple are in the wrong to sue?
 

numbsafari

macrumors member
Oct 16, 2007
84
0
Media, PA
Why? Granted, my training in trade secret law is fairly old, but the underpinnings of trade secret law isn't based on contract law like NDAs; it's based on common law, and the right of companies to keep certain information legitimately away from the public. As far as I knew, First Amendment law still recognizes trade secret protections, and can still be applied to journalistic activity.

People keep talking about this guy doing jail time... If this was a criminal issue it wouldn't be in civil court and the case would be Apple vs. ... it would be US vs. ... and there would have been an investigation by the authorities and Nick would have spent time in jail at least initially while they tried to pressure him to reveal his sources.

None of that happened, which leads me to believe you are simply wrong.
 

zioxide

macrumors 603
Dec 11, 2006
5,737
3,726
Those who think that Apple are in the wrong:

Imagine *you* owned a company, developing a potentially ground breaking product. A mole in YOUR company leaks out to an internet news site who publishes the information and , destroying your competitive advantage.

Would you be pisssed? Would you sue the website publishing company? Yes, probably. So, you still think Apple are in the wrong to sue?

I'd be pissed and fire/sue the guy who leaked it to the media.
 

john7jr

macrumors regular
Aug 14, 2003
188
0
I'd be pissed and fire/sue the guy who leaked it to the media.

But you don't know who the guy (or girl) is? However, the site that published your secret does, and surely knew he broke trade secret laws too. Do you pursue it? Or just let this one go?

It's not hard to see why Apple fought it, even though it was a stretch from the start that they'd get anywhere.
 

vics43

macrumors newbie
Jan 5, 2006
12
0
Vancouver
Come on, give Apple a break...

Right up front, I'm an Apple Fan Boy, but...
Apple, like ANY other manufacturer of any product, not only has the RIGHT to protect their intellectual property, but they have a RESPONSIBILITY to their stockholders to do so as well. How is Apple to continue to research, develop, and deliver new cutting edge products and software if they can't expect to keep what they are developing a trade secret? Have you seen any other company as successful as Apple go out and broadcast what they are doing ahead of product launches? Apple has ALWAYS kept their work close to the vest, and every time someone 'leaks' information like MacRumors did (and I enjoyed reading those leaks as much as the next guy) the competition got advance warning of what was afoot which could have jeopardized the work and investment Apple had made to that point. If the complainers out there want Apple to continue to be the cutting edge innovator they are, they MUST be able to keep their work 'under wraps'. And for those that do NOT want Apple to be successful? Well, good luck to you. Just continue to buy and support mediocre companies like Microsoft who can't even spell innovate!!
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
So is this good or bad news for MacRumors, free to go after rumors or bad that they will be harder to get. Or are we the next big fish in Steve's eyes.

Likely not.

As long as MacRumors isn't an "information content provider" on a story, they can re-report it as news and info without fear. Immunity to an extent was granted by Congress.

Stepping up an being the "content provider" strips the immunity, and someone posting the info first has to balance the chance of getting sued vs. the merits of the story.
 

MattInOz

macrumors 68030
Jan 19, 2006
2,760
0
Sydney
People keep talking about this guy doing jail time... If this was a criminal issue it wouldn't be in civil court and the case would be Apple vs. ... it would be US vs. ... and there would have been an investigation by the authorities and Nick would have spent time in jail at least initially while they tried to pressure him to reveal his sources.

None of that happened, which leads me to believe you are simply wrong.

A Victim has to file charges before Police would be knocking on the door. Just because none if it happened doesn't mean it wasn't a possibility.

Wouldn't pursing the criminal route be massively bad and mainstream PR.
It's a card apple had, but you can understand why they would hold off playing.

This would be likely be part of the settlement, not to press charges, which is a secret now, so we'll never know.
 

wnurse

macrumors regular
Jan 6, 2004
206
0
Please give me one good reason why Apple would give money to ThinkSecret.

Because they wanted to shut thinksecret down. I don't know if you were paying attention but nick was being represented by the EFF.. the EFF has infinite time. Apple could sue nick until the next 100 years, the EFF is not going anywhere and any lawyer can volunteer his time indefinitely. This is one guy apple could not threaten to sue forever. Nick said he was very satisfied.. why would he be satisfied?.. how would shutting down a site satisfy him?.. why would settling a lawsuit that was costing him $0 to defend satisfy him?. If it was me, the only thing that would satisfy me was if apple paid me so much money, that it would take me years to make it with a website. I'd rather take the money, shut the website down and start some other business.

Is that a good enough reason for you?.. seems you were having a difficult time reading between the lines when nick said "i'm very satisfied with the settlement".. he didn't just say satisfied, he said very satisfied.

gobble, gobble.. i hope nick buys a big house and a boat with the money.
I wish i had thought of the website.
 

gwangung

macrumors 65816
Apr 9, 2003
1,113
91
People keep talking about this guy doing jail time... If this was a criminal issue it wouldn't be in civil court and the case would be Apple vs. ... it would be US vs. ... and there would have been an investigation by the authorities and Nick would have spent time in jail at least initially while they tried to pressure him to reveal his sources.

None of that happened, which leads me to believe you are simply wrong.

Well, given that IP cases (trade secrets, copyright, etc.) are generally CIVIL cases anyway, I think you should do a little more background research (particularly since I didn't mention anything at all about jail time). You seem more than a little confused to me.
 

Sun Baked

macrumors G5
May 19, 2002
14,937
157
Well, given that IP cases (trade secrets, copyright, etc.) are generally CIVIL cases anyway, I think you should do a little more background research (particularly since I didn't mention anything at all about jail time). You seem more than a little confused to me.

But they occasionally fall into criminal arena also...
The criminal case against (Jose) Lopez filed by the district attorney says that the "defendant did knowingly and willfully, and with the intent to appropriate a trade secret to his own use and the use of another, steal, take and carry away and use without authorization a trade secret, to wit: schematic drawings and engineering details of the Power Mac G4, belonging to Apple Computer Inc."

Which is where some of us thought the TS leaker would likely end up.

Edit: So yes Nick won a round for protecting the source. But is it a real win for rumor sites, and will Apple step up the game next round ... we will see.
 

illitrate23

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2004
681
270
uk
i don't see how Apple have lost here
they've removed ThinkSecret - a site which has given their competition early info on Apple's next projects
they've also given a big warning shot to any other rumour site - publish all the rumours you like, but don't give away our trade secrets

as someone earlier said, the laywer is the only loser here and he's smarting because he was looking forward to this case being a juicy cash cow for him and now it's ended early
 

belovedmonster

macrumors regular
May 11, 2005
166
0
Move along people, nothing to see here. This is old news.

When the original story the other day said the kid was really pleased with the outcome did no one else read between the lines and assume that Apple just paid him to walk away.
 

michelepri

macrumors 6502a
May 27, 2007
511
61
Rome, Paris, Berlin
Apple is not the loser. We Apple users are the losers. Many of us believed in the "think different" statement, and now this is a rude awakening as we realize we are dealing with a rude and greedy multinational. Thinksecret case shows us what Apple really is: a control freak and a big brother.

This view is reinforced by Apple's Iphone spam, where they managed to reintroduce two year contracts, the way it used to be done 10 years ago, defeating consumer rights in many countries.

Among Iphone users in Germany, there are growing complains about T-Mobile's behavior and plain rip offs. It's amazing what they do with their customers. And Apple is the only one responsible for locking up their fans and supporters with a horrible company that would be losing business every day without the IPhone.

As someone that loves Apple products, I am angry. I don't have to accept every dirty trick that Apple decides to pull on us.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Because they wanted to shut thinksecret down. I don't know if you were paying attention but nick was being represented by the EFF.. the EFF has infinite time. Apple could sue nick until the next 100 years, the EFF is not going anywhere and any lawyer can volunteer his time indefinitely. This is one guy apple could not threaten to sue forever. Nick said he was very satisfied.. why would he be satisfied?.. how would shutting down a site satisfy him?.. why would settling a lawsuit that was costing him $0 to defend satisfy him?. If it was me, the only thing that would satisfy me was if apple paid me so much money, that it would take me years to make it with a website. I'd rather take the money, shut the website down and start some other business.

Is that a good enough reason for you?.. seems you were having a difficult time reading between the lines when nick said "i'm very satisfied with the settlement".. he didn't just say satisfied, he said very satisfied.

gobble, gobble.. i hope nick buys a big house and a boat with the money.
I wish i had thought of the website.

You are so completely wrong about Apple's motivation, it's not even funny.

Apple isn't interested at all in closing ThinkSecret down. Apple isn't even interested in finding the leaker. The story about Asteroid was long out, the damage is done, and neither ThinkSecret nor the employee have the money to pay for the damage. What Apple wants is to prevent future leaks.

And Apple has one hundred percent succeeded in that. How did they do that? In two ways: First, Apple sent the message out to all employees that they are serious about keeping secret things secret. It hasn't been that way all the time, so some employees might have had the wrong impression that sending information to a rumours page is Ok. Apple has now given everyone a very, very clear message that this is not true. That alone will keep many leaks from happening.

Secondly, although Apple didn't get the name of this leaker, they will most definitely get the name of the next one. When a request for a subpoena was decided against Apple, the judge didn't just say "No, you can't get the name". The judge wrote "In order to get the name, Apple has to take the following steps first:". This included things like lining up all the employees who could have leaked the information, and tell them either to declare under oath whether they leaked the information or not, or be fired. A very unpleasant thing to do. However, everyone at Apple knows that the next time there is a leak, this is exactly what will happen. And then Apple will go to the court, ask for a subpoena, tell the judge "Look, the last time you gave us a list of things to do before we can get a subpoena, and we did each one of these things". Apple gets subpoena, and then they either get the name, or things get very very costly for the rumours site.

If you read the article itself, Mr. Gross claims that Apple wasn't interested in the court case anymore. That is exactly what I would have expected. The important thing for Apple, and they got that, was the judge's instructions what to do when another leak happens. Apple could have closed the case right then. They kept it open a little bit longer, at minimum cost for Apple, just to annoy ThinkSecret and its owner. They could have kept that case open, as you say, for another hundred years, at minimal cost. You think Apple asked to settle this. Why would they? There was nothing to settle for Apple. It wasn't Apple who was suffering, it was ThinkSecret.

In the article, Mr. Gross claims "It's clear that Apple filed the lawsuit with such fanfare, but then stopped the entire litigation because they thought they were going to lose, and that they'd end up paying [Nick] a lot of money for it". That is utter nonsense. That is not how the law works in the USA. In a civil case like this one, you sue somebody, you pay your lawyers, they pay their lawyers, and the court decides about damages. In the worst case for the plaintiff, damages are zero. There is no way Apple could end up paying money to ThinkSecret. In other countries, Apple could end up paying the defendant's lawyers, but not in the USA.

Mr. Gross reminds me of an old joke: A rabbit lies between the railroad tracks. A train comes. The rabbit cowers down, and the train passes over its head. When the train is gone, the rabbit gets up, shakes its fist and shouts: "Come back, you coward, and fight!"
 
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