Are Apple today the Sony Ericsson of the 2000's?

[d123]

.

Take a look at the top-selling smartphones on Amazon Germany: 8 of the top 10 are from Samsung. The other 2 are from Huawei.

The first Apple product in that list is on page 3. Apple isn't even in the top 50.

In the UK, 9 of the top 10 are from Samsung. The other one is the HTC One.

Apple does better in the UK. Their top model is #12 (surprise, surprise its their lowest end models that do best - iP5 16GB at #12, iP4 16GB at #13).

The fact that Amazon are not an Apple retailer and don't actually sell Apple products makes your entire premise nonsense.

That's like checking the sales figures at a Chevrolet dealer and saying Ford don't sell any vehicles.

 

[scaredpoet]

You don't travel outside the US much apparently.

THIS is the "least educated" post I've seen on here. You clearly know nothing of what I do.

You'd realize how silly your statement is if you did.

Attacking me personally is not "educating" me. It doesn't explain your assertion that the market for Apple products has collapsed internationally, as you claim. Calling someone "silly" for disagreeing with you doesn't make your statements true.

There are official and unofficial marketplaces for FORD automobiles in Seoul too, but do you think FORD has any marketshare there whatsoever?

I only have your word to go on, which so far hasn't been accurate. But assuming what you say is true: Evidently, it's enough of a market share to support mainstream and grey market channels. Salespeople don't work for charity, they work for profit. IF there was no money in grey market sales, then there wouldn't be a grey market. That's elementary economics. Any silly American should know that.

I'm so tired of those people who have never actually left the country talking about how the whole world loves iPhones because Apple posts pictures of people lined up in front of a store in Shanghai. It makes me ashamed to be an American because of people like you who make baseless claims like this.

I have hard data which shows that the majority of Apple's revenues - 61% - is international sales. They make more money in sales abroad than they make in the US.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/23/apple-international-sales/

I have hard data which shows Apple has over 100 billion US dollars in income stashed overseas, from sales abroad. So much money it's causing a problem for them: if they bring it to the US, they'll owe billions in taxes. If that's a collapsed market, I shudder to think what you consider "successful."

http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/22/w...s-is-fair-and-why-congress-largely-disagrees/


What do you have? Nothing but unfounded condescension, so far.

 

[springsup]

The fact that Amazon are not an Apple retailer and don't actually sell Apple products makes your entire premise nonsense.

That's like checking the sales figures at a Chevrolet dealer and saying Ford don't sell any vehicles.

Amazon do sell Apple products.

They might not be the first place people go to buy Apple products, but they're a major retailer comparable to any brick-and-mortar store.

 

[scoop2mylue]

serious question smh

 

[d123]

Amazon do sell Apple products.

They might not be the first place people go to buy Apple products, but they're a major retailer comparable to any brick-and-mortar store.

I've just checked again and neither Amazon UK or DE sell the iPhone 5c or 5s, while some Amazon Marketplace resellers sell iPhones in small quantities, Amazon do not sell the iPhone 5c or 5s.

The comparison is still totally flawed and useless.

 

[roadbloc]

No, the software was always buggy, I worked in the industry at the time and knew people who ran the SE Call Centre. Software was always buggy and sometimes never rectified, (Xperia X1 anybody)?

Even the K800i (paid to be in the movie, not because it was premium) was a good camera with mediocre phone software.

The software is what killed SonyEricsson, plain and simple.

I disagree. My K800i was solid. Don't assume your opinions to be facts.

 

[CEmajr]

Amazon do sell Apple products.

They might not be the first place people go to buy Apple products, but they're a major retailer comparable to any brick-and-mortar store.

No. Amazon doesn't sell them directly like their other products so using them as a metric for how Apple sales are is totally useless. You can only buy Apple products from third parties on Amazon.

 

[springsup]

No. Amazon doesn't sell them directly like their other products so using them as a metric for how Apple sales are is totally useless. You can only buy Apple products from third parties on Amazon.

Ah, I see - yes, you're right about that.

Still, I don't think it's a useless metric. It mirrors what I see on the ground and what others in Europe are also saying on these forums. That is, that Apple are both losing market share in Europe, and that their phones are too expensive compared to the competition.

Amazon will sell you a brand-new 32GB HTC One (unlocked) for £409. If you took that same £400 and went to Apple, you'd walk out with either an 8GB (!) 4S for £350 or a 16GB 5C for an extra £60 (£469).

Honestly, as much as I think iOS is a better ecosystem, it's getting harder and harder to recommend an iPhone to friends and family. That the 4S has a comparable price to the GS4 is totally unacceptable. Apple can stubbornly hold on to their margins, but they're going to lose market-share as a result. It's really quite simple.

 

[Fedmahn Kassad]

Ah, I see - yes, you're right about that.

Still, I don't think it's a useless metric. It mirrors what I see on the ground and what others in Europe are also saying on these forums. That is, that Apple are both losing market share in Europe, and that their phones are too expensive compared to the competition.

Amazon will sell you a brand-new 32GB HTC One (unlocked) for £409. If you took that same £400 and went to Apple, you'd walk out with either an 8GB (!) 4S for £350 or a 16GB 5C for an extra £60 (£469).

Honestly, as much as I think iOS is a better ecosystem, it's getting harder and harder to recommend an iPhone to friends and family. That the 4S has a comparable price to the GS4 is totally unacceptable. Apple can stubbornly hold on to their margins, but they're going to lose market-share as a result. It's really quite simple.

The problem with the market share idea - as I pointed out earlier - is that it does not matter what Apple's market share is compared to Android because what you're comparing are totally different products across different strategies.

It's similar to comparing Windows to Macbooks. Two different things, two different strategies. One aims for market penetration, the other aims for product sales.

The iPhone outsells every other smartphone on the market, most of them by a wide margin - this does not mean that it outsells the Android platform, nor can that be a realistic goal for Apple.

And lastly, I don't see any other company selling nearly as many phones as Apple. That's all Apple really cares about - making their money. Once that stops happening, they'll change their strategy as appropriate. For now, we can continue to expect them to live up to the ridiculous expectations that investors have.

----------

I have hard data which shows that the majority of Apple's revenues - 61% - is international sales. They make more money in sales abroad than they make in the US.

That's all the information this thread needed. Can't see why I didn't point this out myself. Somebody close this discussion lol.

 

[springsup]

The problem with the market share idea - as I pointed out earlier - is that it does not matter what Apple's market share is compared to Android because what you're comparing are totally different products across different strategies.

It's similar to comparing Windows to Macbooks. Two different things, two different strategies. One aims for market penetration, the other aims for product sales.

The iPhone outsells every other smartphone on the market, most of them by a wide margin - this does not mean that it outsells the Android platform, nor can that be a realistic goal for Apple.

And lastly, I don't see any other company selling nearly as many phones as Apple. That's all Apple really cares about - making their money. Once that stops happening, they'll change their strategy as appropriate. For now, we can continue to expect them to live up to the ridiculous expectations that investors have.

But then...

What ruined Apple was not growth … what ruined apple was values… They got very greedy … Instead of following the original trajectory of the original vision, which was to make the thing an appliance and get this out there to as many people as possible … they went for profits. They made outlandish profits for about four years. What this cost them was their future. What they should have been doing is making rational profits and going for market share.

 

[CEmajr]

The problem with the market share idea - as I pointed out earlier - is that it does not matter what Apple's market share is compared to Android because what you're comparing are totally different products across different strategies.

It's similar to comparing Windows to Macbooks. Two different things, two different strategies. One aims for market penetration, the other aims for product sales.

The iPhone outsells every other smartphone on the market, most of them by a wide margin - this does not mean that it outsells the Android platform, nor can that be a realistic goal for Apple.

And lastly, I don't see any other company selling nearly as many phones as Apple. That's all Apple really cares about - making their money. Once that stops happening, they'll change their strategy as appropriate. For now, we can continue to expect them to live up to the ridiculous expectations that investors have.

----------



That's all the information this thread needed. Can't see why I didn't point this out myself. Somebody close this discussion lol.

Thank you. Worthless thread. OP can go ahead and close it now.

 

[Fedmahn Kassad]

But then...

LOL, this was indeed exceedingly clever on your part. However I'm not sure that we can prove its relevance with regard to Apple's current strategy. This could be what winds up happening, however, and it's interesting that you brought this up.

I've said for a long time that the biggest threat to Apple is itself. Perhaps this is an example of that having been the case in the past, and potential in the future.

But in the mid-term (next 3-5 years) I don't see this panning out. Perhaps toward the end of that time frame, if we see stagnation in the Apple product universe and very strong growth from competitors, this could hold true.

Again, that was very good placement on your part lol. Touché.

 

[MickdaMan]

Just thought I'd provide some data :

- Smartphone sales 2009-2013 (chart provided by STATISTICA)
- Snapshot of Q2-2012 / Q2-2013 - by device and OS (see tables 1&2 by Gartner)

 

[MickdaMan]

Here's the 2nd attachment:
Interestingly windows seem to be gaining

 

[MickdaMan]

Perhaps the relevant comparison here (wrt to the last few posts) should be between the various iterations of the iphone and Samsung's, namely the Galaxy variants. Since 2009 both market-share trend-lines show a linear increase with Samsung having a higher market share. I'll attach the unit sales of both the iphone and Samsung next.

 

[AnorexicPig]

Have you been to Asia lately, specifically China, Taiwan, Philippines, and Hong Kong? HTC most certainly is alive and popular as they have a ton of Asia-only models that people there love. I was in China, Taiwan and Hong Kong several times in the last 2-3 months, and everywhere you go it's HTC and Samsung, I think I may have seen less than a handful of Apple iPhones the entire trip. This has changed drastically over the past 2-3 years when Apple was so coveted there that resale values often were higher than our US prices.

I'm sorry to say but I disagree with you about Apple having nothing to worry about, that's a very closed-minded, US-centric view and opinion, and unfortunately the future of the mobile industry isn't driven by the United States. We'll likely always have Apple in some form, but it's not going to be like the past 5 years...

I guess you need to calm down here, check out HTC's latest earnings, they have just reported their first ever loss in the latest quarter.

AND if you think it's only US, Apple is thriving in Canada,Australia,UK and even in India, they don't have much market share, but they are the most desired of the brands--they have record profits, Jesus, You are totally in your own world here-seem more like Anti-US and Anti-Apple.

 

[MickdaMan]

Let's compare Samsung's flagship and the iphone and look at Q3 and Q4 2012 (data by Strategy Analytics):

- in Q 3, they seem to be neck and neck
- in Q4 with the introduction of the iP5, the figures improve for the iphone

Interestingly if you read reports from the MSM, most would have you believe that Samsung has achieved dominance over Apple when it comes to handset sales. The the truth of the matter is that the "race" is far from over

 

[veedubshafer]

I loved my old Sony-Ericsson phones! In fact I still have 2 of them and they both work perfectly.

 

[MickdaMan]

@ post #42 - Somehow my attachment did not load (using my iphone), here it is.

I have also attached the following charts from Raymond James Equity Research;

- Samsung GalaxyS vs iPhones all variants
- Samsung GalaxyS vs iPhones totals
- Samsung GalaxyS vs iPhones by quarter

It's not very close. The article from CNET on RJ's figures; http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57564453-94/in-iphone-vs-galaxy-battle-apple-still-way-on-top/

 

[shenan1982]

I guess you need to calm down here, check out HTC's latest earnings, they have just reported their first ever loss in the latest quarter.

AND if you think it's only US, Apple is thriving in Canada,Australia,UK and even in India, they don't have much market share, but they are the most desired of the brands--they have record profits, Jesus, You are totally in your own world here-seem more like Anti-US and Anti-Apple.

You do realize "record profit" means nothing without market share, right?

So I am selling a XYZ Backscratcher ... I have 0% marketshare of the product in India. So by your comment, if I sold 10 at 85% profit in India, a market that ABC Backscratchers has 99% marketshare, then I should consider myself highly successful for having the highest profit market in the region.

No, sorry, I'm not anti-US nor anti-apple, I just see a trend here, and you're backing the issue 100%. You're supporting Apple as a fanboy.. and yeah I hate using that term, but it's really the best way to describe what's going on... users who are so in love with Apple that they're willing to overlook things that are common sense, like building larger screen (and maybe smaller) devices to fit each market segment, or improving battery. You can sit and say "apple is selling like hotcakes in the US" which again is a result of their marketing engine... they had the capability to manufacture many more iPhone 5 for the US so COULD have done so in the US for the 5s, but that would create a perception of an underwhelming response, hurting sales.

It's fine, you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, you can say Apple is as popular as ever, but that's not reality, and you'll look back in 5 years and say gosh I wish I hadn't been satisfied with Apple's stagnation.

 

[m7ammed]

You do realize "record profit" means nothing without market share, right?

So I am selling a XYZ Backscratcher ... I have 0% marketshare of the product in India. So by your comment, if I sold 10 at 85% profit in India, a market that ABC Backscratchers has 99% marketshare, then I should consider myself highly successful for having the highest profit market in the region.

No, sorry, I'm not anti-US nor anti-apple, I just see a trend here, and you're backing the issue 100%. You're supporting Apple as a fanboy.. and yeah I hate using that term, but it's really the best way to describe what's going on... users who are so in love with Apple that they're willing to overlook things that are common sense, like building larger screen (and maybe smaller) devices to fit each market segment, or improving battery. You can sit and say "apple is selling like hotcakes in the US" which again is a result of their marketing engine... they had the capability to manufacture many more iPhone 5 for the US so COULD have done so in the US for the 5s, but that would create a perception of an underwhelming response, hurting sales.

It's fine, you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, you can say Apple is as popular as ever, but that's not reality, and you'll look back in 5 years and say gosh I wish I hadn't been satisfied with Apple's stagnation.

I live in Saudi Arabia, and people over here are buying the iPhone 5c 16 GB from teh grey market for what the iPhone 5S 16 GB would cost. And people are buying the 16GB iPhone 5s for a higher price than what a 64 5s would cost. I ordered mine from the US and shipped it to my cousin so he can send it here. I can show an Arabic forum thread with over 350 pages of people discussing how to order the iPhone 5s and iPhone 5c from Hong Kong, UK and the US so they can use them here. And I bet you like last year Service proivders will sell out of all iPhone stock once its released by the 3rd of Nov. What I'm sayin applies to all GCC countries (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman) alot of people still use iPhone and buy them. People love the iPad and the iPad mini. Sure Samasung outselling them maybe, but I see samsung Ads all over the streets TV eveywhere, that is how they manged to outsell every other Android manufacturer out there.

Apple still has a successfull line in its computer bussniess in its Macbooks and Macs even though they don't have marketshare.

 

[d123]

I disagree. My K800i was solid. Don't assume your opinions to be facts.

Did you miss the part about me working for the company that ran SonyEricsson customer services in the UK? I had friends and colleagues actually working in the call centre that dealt with the incoming complaints.

I'm talking facts from customers who called in, emailed and wrote in. From internal memos and emails. Fact, SE was let down on the software side, they made some well made phones, but overall had software problems on almost all models (the K800i was mentioned, for example, it had a software version in which using the camera crashed the phone, good software, no?). Many handsets like the W850i where always slow and laggy.

Of course we can rely on your opinion of your ONE handset, rather than that of an entire country .

 

[roadbloc]

Did you miss the part about me working for the company that ran SonyEricsson customer services in the UK? I had friends and colleagues actually working in the call centre that dealt with the incoming complaints.

I'm talking facts from customers who called in, emailed and wrote in. From internal memos and emails. Fact, SE was let down on the software side, they made some well made phones, but overall had software problems on almost all models (the K800i was mentioned, for example, it had a software version in which using the camera crashed the phone, good software, no?). Many handsets like the W850i where always slow and laggy.

Of course we can rely on your opinion of your ONE handset, rather than that of an entire country .

I'm sure Apple has many complaints coming in at its customer services too, especially with the changes iOS 7 has brought. I've worked in a similar environment and when you deal with nothing but complaints, you begin to think that something is wrong. It isn't. People complain all the time, even if it isn't much of a massive deal for them. The most popular product in the world will still have customer complaints a mile long, with over half the issues a basic misunderstanding on how to use the device or a user simply just not liking it.

You assume your experiences to be facts. They're not. Especially when working in a department that is designed to handle with the wrath of the customer. Now where as I admit that the software on the K800i wasn't the best or the most easy to use, I never had a problem with its stability. And no, I don't assume that to be a fact. Different people have different experiences depending on a number of factors, mostly boiling down to opinion.

 

[AnorexicPig]

You do realize "record profit" means nothing without market share, right?

So I am selling a XYZ Backscratcher ... I have 0% marketshare of the product in India. So by your comment, if I sold 10 at 85% profit in India, a market that ABC Backscratchers has 99% marketshare, then I should consider myself highly successful for having the highest profit market in the region.

No, sorry, I'm not anti-US nor anti-apple, I just see a trend here, and you're backing the issue 100%. You're supporting Apple as a fanboy.. and yeah I hate using that term, but it's really the best way to describe what's going on... users who are so in love with Apple that they're willing to overlook things that are common sense, like building larger screen (and maybe smaller) devices to fit each market segment, or improving battery. You can sit and say "apple is selling like hotcakes in the US" which again is a result of their marketing engine... they had the capability to manufacture many more iPhone 5 for the US so COULD have done so in the US for the 5s, but that would create a perception of an underwhelming response, hurting sales.

It's fine, you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, you can say Apple is as popular as ever, but that's not reality, and you'll look back in 5 years and say gosh I wish I hadn't been satisfied with Apple's stagnation.

I don't know what to say anymore-you have got it all wrong.

Market Share means nothing without profits. You can have 90% of the market but if you are making a loss, it's worthless, and if you have 10% of the market with huge profits and margins, it's sound business.

Moreover you claimed HTC is doing great-I said look up their last earnings and the losses, you have no answer for it now.

I rest my case. If you still feel Apple is doomed, well good for you ! I also don't like defending a company, I just felt your thoeries were all wrong. Apple thrives or goes kaput, I don't give two hoots lol, so am not your regular 'fanboy'.

 

[shenan1982]

@ post #42 - Somehow my attachment did not load (using my iphone), here it is.

I have also attached the following charts from Raymond James Equity Research;

- Samsung GalaxyS vs iPhones all variants
- Samsung GalaxyS vs iPhones totals
- Samsung GalaxyS vs iPhones by quarter

It's not very close. The article from CNET on RJ's figures; http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57564453-94/in-iphone-vs-galaxy-battle-apple-still-way-on-top/

Unfortunately the measure is not handset to handset, it's iOS vs Android. It's like comparing Mac to a HP computer.... its PC vs Mac. The only way to measure.