Resolved Best color laser printer for photos (was: HP Color LaserJet M856x (review))

[ZombiePhysicist]

So I found this article which has some really nice explanations but still confused.

The TLDR kind of summed up in one photo is this:

And this explanation, if true, matters a lot:

If you have 100k colors inside 1 pixel, that is hella bit depth. That's a bit more than 2^16bits per dot color bit depth. Which is huge.

 

[MacPoulet]

That's quite the find. Personally, I'm partial to the "binary technology" because it feels most like a magazine and I particularly like that aesthetic, but I can definitely see how the multi-layer is definitely the better one. And here I was thinking that like scanners, printer technology hasn't really advanced much in the last 20 years.

I'm generally hesitant when I see "enhanced" technologies in place of actual resolutions (makes me think of the megapixel arms race on camera sensors), but if the marketing claims are even half true, that's pretty good.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Ok, I think I've narrowed it down to 2 (max 3) printers now.

HP M856x 1200 x 1200 with ImageRET4800 (around $5800 with extra bins, by itself around $4000)

Xerox C8000/C9000 2400 x 1200 (around $2500/4300)

Ricoh IM C8000 (wild card) 4800x2400 (around $15k)


The wild card here is what the hell does ImageRET4800 do. if it was just simulating DPI, then it would lose to the Ricoh outright, since it has double the resolution. But from the linked description, if true, that the ImageRET tech puts 100k colors into a single 600x600 dot (or perhaps inside a 1200x1200 dot on this printer), then it becomes a no brainer. That works out to over 16bits. per pixel.

The only real proof is in the printing, and I'm having a heck of a time trying to get these companies to send out samples.

Has anyone used the HP856 and seen its photo output? Is it good?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

So update on my search. Apparently I have actually started a quest and didnt know it. Apparently I'm on a quest more onerous than that of the holy grail. Who knew...

There are ZERO reviews of the HP M856. STOP. Think about that. That is their top end printer, and no one has reviewed it. There is nothing on twitter. Reddit. No major tech outlet. NOTHING.

Also, as far as I can tell, no real reviews of the Xerox C8000/9000 printers (beyond resellers with BS reviews like this).

There are zero articles, therefor, comparing the Xerox C8000/9000 printer to the HP M856. Again, these are the top 2 printer companies, with their 2 top printers, and no one has bothered to review them or compare them.

BUT WAIT, THERE's more!

I called HP up to see if I could get a print sample. Their answer is No. We would get you a print sample from a cheap piece of **** inkjet, but not from our most expensive printer whose quality we love to tout in our marketing. It took them a week to confirm they wouldnt send me a sample. Oh, also I asked them about their 4800 ImageRET technology and if it really mixed 100k colors per dot, and here is my answer, from someone who's worked there over 20 years... 'No one has ever asked me that, I have no idea...here's a dead rat, go have fun'.

Moving on to Xerox, I am now at past week 2 of trying to get them to agree to send me a print out. "The Document Company" cant receive a 45MB PDF, or submit it internally, so I now compressed (for the document company) my PDF to 21MB and await to hear, that maybe, if I'm lucky, in 2-3 weeks, I might get a print sample.

This defies credulity.

This is crazy. It's like we are living in the matrix simulation and the developers just didnt feel like finishing this corner of reality.

Also, there used to be 'prosumer' grade 2400x2400dpi color laser printers. They seemingly have all gone away. Despite markets getting bigger than ever before, offerings are getting worse and worse. It's strange. More and more people are employed, yet achieving and doing less and less.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Ok. So the saga continues. I found someone that ran a print shop and had some experience and basically says the HP prints are generally more vibrant, better color, and there is something to the ImageREt technology. So, after all this, it "seems" that the extra color bit depth should make a pretty big difference and makes many of they issues on pure resolution somewhat moot as there is so much more info per 600dpi dot.

Just for some basic calculations to give a sense of scale.

600x600*4(CYMK)=1,440,000 bits of information per inch on a basic color laser printer
600X600*8(CYMKRGBx)=2,880,000 bits of information (most color lasers add RGB and basically can print 8 colors per dot)
4800*2400*8=92,160,000 bits of info (ie on the Ricoh which is the highest resolution laser I could find)
600*600*100,000=36,000,000,000 bits of info (using imageREt 3600...not clear how much more imageREt 4800 claims to do)
2400*1200*65,536=188,743,680,000 bits of info (for inkjet printers that print 16bit color per "dot"

So kind of interesting scale, but you can see the extra bit depth give so much more potential info on an inkjet printer per inch, and why it will remain better for photos. But, even at 600dpi, printing around 100k colors, the HP imageREt will be about ~400x more info than even the crazy Ricoh printer that costs $15k. And the difference from the high end ink jet printer to the 3600 iimageRET is only about 5x (and that likely goes down to say 2.5x for imageRET 4800, so not bad).

So based on all this, I ordered the HP 856x and it should be arriving sometime next week. We shall see if the reality is somewhat living up to the 'theory' and how good things will be.

Will be interesting.

 

[satcomer]

I would go with the best photo printing printer and good color laser to all your tax documents!

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

This is probably another crazy topic. Good photo paper for color lasers. Particularly at large size, 11x17, 12x18 and I think there is one other call sra or something, are near impossible to find, much less inglossy/photo finishes! I’m not sure when and why this stuff got so difficult and expensive!

 

[AlumaMac]

This is probably another crazy topic. Good photo paper for color lasers. Particularly at large size, 11x17, 12x18 and I think there is one other call sra or something, are near impossible to find, much less inglossy/photo finishes! I’m not sure when and why this stuff got so difficult and expensive!

I used to go to the local industry paper store and order full-size sheets that were then cut to my preferred size.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Ok after a stupid amount of toil, I found some glossy laser paper. Not sure how good it is. Will test when the new printer gets here, but here are some links.

The 2 HP branded paper for letter size (HP generally seems to prefer glossy paper for this imageRET but curious about matte here too:

HP Professional Business Paper, Matte, 8.5x11 in, 52 lb, 150 sheets, works with laser printers (4WN05A)

Produce print-shop quality business collateral in-house on your laser printers. Rich color and sharp graphics and a matte finish provide impressive professional impact on this FSC®-certified paper.

www.amazon.com

HP Professional Business Paper, Glossy, 8.5x11 in, 52 lb, 150 sheets, works with laser printers (4WN10A),White

Produce print-shop quality business collateral in-house on your laser printers. Rich color and sharp graphics and a glossy finish provide impressive professional impact on this FSC®-certified paper.

www.amazon.com

and one non HP letter size:

Koala Pearl Glossy Thin Photo Paper 8.5x11 Inches 40 Sheets 30lbs Shiny for Diy Chip Bag Compatible with Inkjet and Laser Printer Use DYE INK

pearl glossy inkjet and laser paper

www.amazon.com

As for large format glossy laser paper, it seems super hard to find. This is what I was able to find in 11x17 and 12x18:

Xerox® Bold Digital™ Super Gloss Cover Copy Paper, Tabloid Extra Size (18" x 12"), 92 (U.S.) Brightness, FSC® Certified,

Create striking covers for reports, advertising materials and catalogs with this Bold super gloss cover paper. A coating on 1 side delivers a mirror-like finish that makes text and images stand out. 92 GE bright surface helps graphics and text pop. Cast coating on 1 side creates a mirror-like fin...

www.amazon.com

Replacement for Xerox 3R11451 Bold Coated Gloss Digital Printing Office Paper, 11 x 17, 80 Pound Text, (118 Gsm), White, Sold As 500 Sheets (Replaced By Limited Papers -TM- Sourced From Top Brands)

High performance office paper for outstanding color printing. A specially formulated surface coating provides exceptional runnability, best-in-class toner adhesion and offset quality images. Performance guaranteed. Made from wood that came from a certified managed forest.

www.amazon.com

Then here are some non glossy large format papers I'm ordering to just compare as some people told me they like these too:

Hammermill Printer Paper, Premium Color 28 lb Copy Paper, 12 x 18-1 Ream (500 Sheets) - 100 Bright, Made in the USA, 106125R

Hammermill Premium Color Copy 28lb Paper provides a high-tech sheet of printing paper that’s designed to show your work at its best. Choose this printer paper for all of your important customer-facing documents from design proposals or full-color presentations to photographs, flyers or brochures....

www.amazon.com

Hammermill Printer Paper, Premium Color 28 lb Copy Paper, 11 x 17 - 1 Ream (500 Sheets) - 100 Bright, Made in the USA, 102541R

Hammermill Premium Color Copy 28lb Paper provides a high-tech sheet of printing paper that’s designed to show your work at its best. Choose this printer paper for all of your important customer-facing documents from design proposals or full-color presentations to photographs, flyers or brochures....

www.amazon.com

And regular letter size:

Hammermill Printer Paper, Premium Laser Print 32 lb, 8.5 x 11-1 Ream (500 Sheets) - 98 Bright, Made in the USA, 104646R

Hammermill Premium Laser Print 8.5” x 11” 32lb copy paper is designed for color-intensive printing or any project that needs to look its best. This premium white printer paper, with a 98 brightness, is manufactured to run in all laser and color printers. It’s premium copying paper that features a...

www.amazon.com

Hammermill Printer Paper, Premium Color 28 lb Copy Paper, 8.5 x 11 - 1 Ream (500 Sheets) - 100 Bright, Made in the USA, 102467R

Hammermill Premium Color Copy 28lb Paper provides a high-tech sheet of printing paper that’s designed to show your work at its best. Choose this printer paper for all of your important customer-facing documents from design proposals or full-color presentations to photographs, flyers or brochures....

www.amazon.com

Hope this helps some people. Lord knows this was not easily google'able. Weird black hole in knowledge base out here on something that really should NOT be esoteric subject matter, but in reality, has become that. Very weird information black hole on this topic.

 

[Ener Ji]

Appreciate the updates! I don't have the budget for this kind of model, but I'm a fan of color lasers and similarly despise inkjets, so it's interesting to see the current state of the high-end color laser market.

It's in a completely different realm than what you purchased, but I've been eyeing the HP 479 series (and its predecessors) for a few years now, though I've been turned off by their apparent inability to scan at more than 300dpi using the ADF despite the flatbed supporting 1200dpi. Also, their price has skyrocketed over the past couple of years, and still hasn't returned to earth.

I had hoped that innovations at the high-end would push new technology down to my price point, that competition would force HP to unlock 600dpi (or more) scanning via the ADF, but it seems that the color laser printer market has stagnated.

Still, I'm looking forward to updates once the printer arrives. I'm also interested in seeing your thoughts on the Xerox samples and comparison to the HP if/when they arrive.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I think some of the lower HPs have imageRET 3600 and 2400. Those might be helpful. I guess let's see how their top end does and perhaps that might be an indicator for others.

There was one lower printer that did imageRET 4800 too, but forget which. I think it had a 1200x600 resolution.

HP Color LaserJet Enterprise MFP M480f

Free shipping. Buy direct from HP. See customer reviews and comparisons for HP Color LaserJet Enterprise MFP M480f. Upgrades and savings on select products.

www.hp.com

Yea, this does 1200dpi, and does imageRet3600. 989. not cheap, but interesting mid/high printer.

This is $3000 and has imageRET 4800:

HP Color LaserJet Enterprise M751dn

Free shipping. Buy direct from HP. See customer reviews and comparisons for HP Color LaserJet Enterprise M751dn. Upgrades and savings on select products.

www.hp.com

 

[DisraeliGears]

I have no advice to offer, but I truly and sincerely appreciate your commitment to saying GTFO to inkjets. They are a bane on human existence, likely invented by the devil himself.

 

[FreakinEurekan]

Ok. So the saga continues. I found someone that ran a print shop and had some experience and basically says the HP prints are generally more vibrant, better color, and there is something to the ImageREt technology. So, after all this, it "seems" that the extra color bit depth should make a pretty big difference and makes many of they issues on pure resolution somewhat moot as there is so much more info per 600dpi dot.

Just for some basic calculations to give a sense of scale.

600x600*4(CYMK)=1,440,000 bits of information per inch on a basic color laser printer
600X600*8(CYMKRGBx)=2,880,000 bits of information (most color lasers add RGB and basically can print 8 colors per dot)
4800*2400*8=92,160,000 bits of info (ie on the Ricoh which is the highest resolution laser I could find)
600*600*100,000=36,000,000,000 bits of info (using imageREt 3600...not clear how much more imageREt 4800 claims to do)
2400*1200*65,536=188,743,680,000 bits of info (for inkjet printers that print 16bit color per "dot"

So kind of interesting scale, but you can see the extra bit depth give so much more potential info on an inkjet printer per inch, and why it will remain better for photos. But, even at 600dpi, printing around 100k colors, the HP imageREt will be about 40x more info than even the crazy Ricoh printer that costs $15k.

So based on all this, I ordered the HP 856x and it should be arriving sometime next week. We shall see if the reality is somewhat living up to the 'theory' and how good things will be.

Will be interesting.

If I were this far down the rabbit hole, and contemplating spending up to $15k... I'd start rethinking my dislike of inkjet printers. You could just literally get a subscription for a new printer every 6 months for the next 10 years and not spend that.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

If I were this far down the rabbit hole, and contemplating spending up to $15k... I'd start rethinking my dislike of inkjet printers. You could just literally get a subscription for a new printer every 6 months for the next 10 years and not spend that.

It’s truly wonderful how understanding people are of the premise…how to put this to clarify…

I’d rather print with my ass than let a garbage disgusting piece of **** inkjet anywhere near me… so the odds of me changing my mind, while not zero, are quite low.

To repeat, if one does NOT want a dirty filthy stinking inkjet printer, what is the next best option… please don’t say “an inkjet printer”.

 

[MacPoulet]

To repeat, if one does NOT want a dirty filthy stinking inkjet printer, what is the next best option… please don’t say “an inkjet printer”.

Two inkjet printers?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Two inkjet printers?

I believe he trumped you by literally suggesting a 10 year long subscription to inkjet printers, or, ie 15k worth of inkjets!

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Ok an update. I got the printer! SWEET JESUS this this is huge. And comes with the most brilliant packaging engineering I've ever seen. It comes on a wooden pallet!

You need to grease your delivery person to bring it inside for you and make sure he's not in view of the camera on the back of his truck doing so.

Anyway, still setting it up, and printed a test page on glossy stock. Jesus it looks like a brochure.

Anyway, im still fumbling with driver install because it has some expired encryption certificate I need to update. But in the mean time I found this page and am very depressed. The dumbing down of macOS continues.

Printer and scanner drivers for Mac

If you have an older printer that doesn't support driverless technology, your Mac might automatically install the driver software needed to use that device.

support.apple.com

So one of the reasons I dropped Brother printers is they no longer make drivers for their printers for macOS. And it sucks. The AirPrint drivers is fine for stupid braindead iPhones but it's an atrocity for anyone doing anything professional with printing. Basic things like selecting the print quality draft/fine on brother (or normal/enhanced/lineArt on HP) printer I had you could no longer do. Also, you cant select what type of paper you have in the bins, which is critical (eg gloss, matte, bond, etc).

Apparently apple is 'proud' of the above but it dumbs down printing to an atrocious extent. It's just depressing. They keep further and further lobotomizing macOS to be a piece of s*** iOS wannabe. Disgusting. FU Apple! And FU to the companies that stop making actually useful print drivers!

Either Apple needs to make AirPrint more robust so it can poll and present ALL those features instead of being a dumbed down tinker toy, or printer manufacturers need to support full drivers. Just outrageous. NONE of this is in any of the brain dead tech press by the way. Horrendous losers that they are.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

HP M856x Review Part 1
Ok after a few prints of photos …

1) on regular paper in normal print quality: ok quality bit still “color laser”’ish. Although better than any other color laser I’ve seen.
2) on regular paper in enhanced print quality: good quality! The toner has this magazine like nature to it and turns even crap paper into something really nice. Fine detail is great. Color vibrancy better than any color laser I’ve seen. I’d say competitive with lower tier inkjets.
3) on gloss paper at enhanced quality:great quality. It’s like a combination of magazine quality and art gallery quality on thick photo stock. Color vibrancy best I’ve seen on a laser printer. I’d say it’s competitive with mid tier inkjets. Still not competitive with top end pro inkjets. But it’s really quite good. I’d have no problem mounting these as photos.

So the painful research rabbit hole and expensive gamble paid off for me. Obviously ymmv but this color laser definitely is ‘good enough quality’ for photos. If you want the pinnacle quality photos you still want to get a pro level inkjet or dye sublimation printer, but imo, this printer is the real deal for photos.

I need to do a bunch more testing. I’ll follow up with a bunch more detail.

Where the printer is weakest is skin tone where you might see some patching, which is often a function of the source having high contrast glare on the skin. This is often an issue on color laser printing photos and is still sometimes present, albeit this printer seems to do better than most. I also see this on mid level inkjets so it’s not too surprising to see it here, however, it Crops up here maybe 10% of the time on poor source material, so I don’t view it as much of an issue. Ymmv. Also, printing in line art mode can lessen that, oddly, but the colors are a touch less vibrant, though still excellent.

TLDR the HP 4800imageREt capable printers produce solid photo output akin to mid level inkjet printers, but still shy of the best pro photo inkjet printers. However, you don’t have to deal with dirty filthy ink, and the print speed is fantastic, and it’s a great large format laser printer for all your other tasks.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

HP M856x Review Part 2
Ok so here is an interesting update confirming that HP's claims are pretty legit.

I printed out this photo on just the HP glossy 8.5x11 paper and looked close in for some artifacts etc:

So check this out at close up you can see it has a very very interesting half toning.

This may be the most interesting view, not in too much and you look hexagonal grid looks like solid watercolors:

If you look at that above you would be absolutely convinced the printer is mixing colors unlike any laser color printer I've ever seen. But I zoomed in even more and you get to see what's really going on, which is still super impressive.

So below you can see teh half toning. But even here while it is halfoning, it's better than anything I've ever seen. It looks better than magazine half toning I've seen. And it clearly is still mixing toners to make true real colors its halftoning with:

Color lasers usually print chrome like poop. This thing is total rockstar territory. Really super super impressed.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

So update on my search. Apparently I have actually started a quest and didnt know it. Apparently I'm on a quest more onerous than that of the holy grail. Who knew...

There are ZERO reviews of the HP M856. STOP. Think about that. That is their top end printer, and no one has reviewed it. There is nothing on twitter. Reddit. No major tech outlet. NOTHING.

Also, as far as I can tell, no real reviews of the Xerox C8000/9000 printers (beyond resellers with BS reviews like this).

There are zero articles, therefor, comparing the Xerox C8000/9000 printer to the HP M856. Again, these are the top 2 printer companies, with their 2 top printers, and no one has bothered to review them or compare them.

BUT WAIT, THERE's more!

I called HP up to see if I could get a print sample. Their answer is No. We would get you a print sample from a cheap piece of **** inkjet, but not from our most expensive printer whose quality we love to tout in our marketing. It took them a week to confirm they wouldnt send me a sample. Oh, also I asked them about their 4800 ImageRET technology and if it really mixed 100k colors per dot, and here is my answer, from someone who's worked there over 20 years... 'No one has ever asked me that, I have no idea...here's a dead rat, go have fun'.

Moving on to Xerox, I am now at past week 2 of trying to get them to agree to send me a print out. "The Document Company" cant receive a 45MB PDF, or submit it internally, so I now compressed (for the document company) my PDF to 21MB and await to hear, that maybe, if I'm lucky, in 2-3 weeks, I might get a print sample.

This defies credulity.

This is crazy. It's like we are living in the matrix simulation and the developers just didnt feel like finishing this corner of reality.

Also, there used to be 'prosumer' grade 2400x2400dpi color laser printers. They seemingly have all gone away. Despite markets getting bigger than ever before, offerings are getting worse and worse. It's strange. More and more people are employed, yet achieving and doing less and less.

For the record Xerox was never able and/or never bothered responding to my request and never got me a sample print.

Also, HP tech support is awful. It’s outsourced to India and anyone that I got on the line sounded so miserable and seemed intent on spreading their misery to me for my audacious desire to get their print driver installed. Xerox tech service seems way better, but that is a statement in relativism.

Luckily the HP M856x is rocking it and really great so far.

 

[RandomNumberGenerator]

Ok so here is an interesting update confirming that HP's claims are pretty legit.

I printed out this photo on just the HP glossy 8.5x11 paper and looked close in for some artifacts etc:

View attachment 2162010

So check this out at close up you can see it has a very very interesting half toning.

This may be the most interesting view, not in too much and you look hexagonal grid looks like solid watercolors:
View attachment 2162022

If you look at that above you would be absolutely convinced the printer is mixing colors unlike any laser color printer I've ever seen. But I zoomed in even more and you get to see what's really going on, which is still super impressive.

So below you can see teh half toning. But even here while it is halfoning, it's better than anything I've ever seen. It looks better than magazine half toning I've seen. And it clearly is still mixing toners to make true real colors its halftoning with:
View attachment 2162023

Color lasers usually print chrome like poop. This thing is total rockstar territory. Really super super impressed.

I am so jealous of your printer. Could you please share a high-res scan of the full print?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I am so jealous of your printer. Could you please share a high-res scan of the full print?

Sadly my Scanner only does 600dpi and the printer is native 1200dpi so it wouldn’t really be worth it. I wish I had a higher resolution scanner. If I get one I’ll share it. the ultra zoom shots I shared above are the best I can do to show a per dot output for now.

Printer is the GOAT. Really happy with it. I’ve been printing things on some of the near card stock paper I shared earlier in the thread. Family loves them and has been mounting them in frames.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Printer Ink: It's a SCAM

We all know that printer companies hook you with a cheap printer and then make their money with overpriced ink. I just didn't know it was this bad. Because I'm an idiot, I bought a Canon TS3500 printer/copier/scanner at Walmart for $48. I knew I would be forced to buy overpriced ink, but because...

fstoppers.com

 

[PsychJosh]

I had to create an account to simply applaud you. I'm also here because despise the thought of having to own an InkJet. I wouldn't accept one for free.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I had to create an account to simply applaud you. I'm also here because despise the thought of having to own an InkJet. I wouldn't accept one for free.

Thanks…also it gets me thinking. If HP can do this quality for photos on this color laser, why can’t others? Why isn’t imageRET4800 standard on even lower end color laser printers? Why isn’t there an imageRET 6000 by now?

Is it because it would kill their inkjet cash cow businesses?

I fear printers like this are going the way of the Dodo because printer manufacturers prefer to sell you expensive ink…actually they prefer to rent ink to you via subscription.