Thanks!
Nanofrog, thanks for your typically excellent critique
I'm giving your reply careful consideration! -- Julian
Nanofrog, thanks for your typically excellent critique
I'm giving your reply careful consideration! -- Julian
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Configuring, Upgrading A 6 Core for retouching
- Thread starter JulianBoolean
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How Many SSDs In The Empty Bay?
I'm reconsidering the idea of SSDs for scratch. I've realized that my previous testing for scratch volume needs was based on the meager 3GB of RAM I currently have, not the 32GB of RAM I will acquire. So... I'm wondering if there is a way to put 2 SSDs in the empty optical bay? I could be reading this wrong, but the links posted above by Giuly appear to only work on G5? I called OWC and was informed that while the physical space allows for 2 SSDs in one optical bay there is only one connection in there.
I'm assuming CaoCao is correct about the physical space available in there, but is there a way to connect 4 in one optical bay? And what about heat ?
I'm reconsidering the idea of SSDs for scratch. I've realized that my previous testing for scratch volume needs was based on the meager 3GB of RAM I currently have, not the 32GB of RAM I will acquire. So... I'm wondering if there is a way to put 2 SSDs in the empty optical bay? I could be reading this wrong, but the links posted above by Giuly appear to only work on G5? I called OWC and was informed that while the physical space allows for 2 SSDs in one optical bay there is only one connection in there.
I'm assuming CaoCao is correct about the physical space available in there, but is there a way to connect 4 in one optical bay? And what about heat ?
OK fresh morning reboot and did your tests with 8 bit mode like you had the file is 8.19 gig as it sits on disc
the open was 64.5 seconds
the Efficiency was %91
scratch was 14.8/9.06
now the above tells me well I am %91 efficient why this box does not have enough ram ! (I have 14 gigs and this was a fresh reboot) but the file needs 14.8 but I only had 9.06 available for the file so that is why not %100 efficient
this amount of memory is also the last values thats why I say check both
in theory the difference of 14.8 to 9.06 is not %9 but things are never pure linear with PS it goes up and down and moves all over with memory useage
here my scratch helped me out a lot I think ? could be wrong but I was using it for sure
SO the scratch numbers if I had had more memory like 24 I might not have hit the scratch ! it would still be their ! but not used and your 32 should be good
36.85 on my SSD left quit PS it jumps to 47.31 was trying to watch how much went to scratch and the scratch numbers above seem about correct
so figure thats what PS set aside for this task
usually when it opens it sets aside 250 megs or so ?
this last part does not mean to much but I did not use tons of my scratch for these things which kinda shows at least 40 gigs IS OK sometimes but have a second drive checked !!!!
now remember some tasks need a lot of memory to run and that means a lot of scratch and you might need 100 gigs of scratch ? this is a unknown thing ! and everyone and every file will be different its hard to say
the save time was 1:26 one minute 26 seconds
the file is 8.19 gig as it sits on disc the open was 64.5 seconds
the Efficiency was %91
scratch was 14.8/9.06
now the above tells me well I am %91 efficient
why this box does not have enough ram ! (I have 14 gigs and this was a fresh reboot) but the file needs 14.8 but I only had 9.06 available for the file so that is why not %100 efficient this amount of memory is also the last values thats why I say check both
in theory the difference of 14.8 to 9.06 is not %9 but things are never pure linear with PS it goes up and down and moves all over with memory useage
here my scratch helped me out a lot I think ? could be wrong but I was using it for sure
SO the scratch numbers if I had had more memory like 24 I might not have hit the scratch ! it would still be their ! but not used and your 32 should be good
36.85 on my SSD left quit PS it jumps to 47.31 was trying to watch how much went to scratch and the scratch numbers above seem about correct
so figure thats what PS set aside for this task
usually when it opens it sets aside 250 megs or so ?
this last part does not mean to much but I did not use tons of my scratch for these things which kinda shows at least 40 gigs IS OK sometimes
but have a second drive checked !!!!now remember some tasks need a lot of memory to run and that means a lot of scratch and you might need 100 gigs of scratch ? this is a unknown thing ! and everyone and every file will be different its hard to say
the save time was 1:26 one minute 26 seconds
remember 3 SSD you are throttled !
so that means you wont be using your other SATA internal for anything more than two unless you do not mind the hit ?
I would say put 2 off your internal connections ? maybe one off your extra SATA in the optical and one on a icy dock sled inside and then depends on your other internals ?
OR I think I figured out my new setup ?
1 off your extra optical this will be your boot SSD
4 discs in raid 1/0 or 1+0
inside for safe BU and fast enough if I need to work off I can this will be 3TB discs so 6 TB working spacethen a card in slot 3 and 4 that will have two SSD for scratch one off each since the card will hit 500 as the two drives might exceed that ? not sure going to have to test
you could do a raid card though like me but still do the scratch off external sata card you can run the cables up inside to your optical and just use a Y to get more power to them
I am going to put in two PM cards from OWC and see how it works running my BU off the extra port
so will be
two cards one SSD off each card and one BU box off each card ! my BU never runs when I am in PS ? so they wont be battling for bandwidth
we shall see
the bus is shared by 3/4 so that is my limit factor but two SSD should be fine ? in theory the two cards should give them plenty breathing room since each will be on its own card
the only other thing is take out your optical and put it on a FW case ? then you have two connections up stairs in the optical but remember you dont have much bandwidth left over all !!! really room for one more HDD ?
unless you use all internals for BU ? but then where is your boot going to go
see the problem I think the raid 0 scratch on SSD has to be off a external card
so a single scratch and single boot will be OK and leave some room for internal discs used as BU but not data in a raid 1/0 1+0 as you are going to limit yourself I think
RAID isn't a simple thing to deal with in reality, and it's a lot of information to digest.Nanofrog, thanks for your typically excellent critique
Physically, it's doable.
But the ports between the two systems are different. So getting them attached to the ICH would be impossible in that location without an adapter offered by MaxUpgrades (also need a mounting system of some sort). There are other options that would be cheaper, such as pull the optical disk in ODD bay 1 (one SSD per optical bay for the cables), use HDD bays with an adapter, or use a separate controller (inexpensive unit per se, but this can get pricey too; unit I'm thinking of would be $130).
Of these, the HDD bay + adapter (here; one per bay) would be the most effective IMO. Probably the cheapest too.
SSD's don't make heat like mechanical disks can, so it's nothing to worry about.
As the 40GB units are generating about 175MB/s sustained, it would be OK to run a pair for scratch, and a separate SSD for OS/applications (leaves ~310MB/s on the ICH, and a single SATA 3.0Gb/s port tops out at 270 - 275MB/s anyway, which is fine for the model being considered).
There'd still be a need for 2x Icy Dock adapters (2x SSD's in the HDD bays, one in the empty optical bay) to get them installed for the lowest cost (all 3x units on the ICH).
This will work, as you're willing to put the funds into such large capacity disks and accept the trade-off in usable capacity.OR I think I figured out my new setup ?
1 off your extra optical this will be your boot SSD
4 discs in raid 1/0 or 1+0
then a card in slot 3 and 4 that will have two SSD for scratch one off each since the card will hit 500 as the two drives might exceed that ? not sure going to have to test
I presume the RAID card is handling your primary data....
Let's wait and see what happens, as it may be more effective to run backups externally (JBOD, hardware RAID box via FW or even eSATA,...).
But the newertech card + pair of single disk enclosures would suffice for the scratch stripe set without getting crazy in terms of cost I think (figuring card + 2x eSATA enclosures would be under $100).
You don't need to do this.two cards one SSD off each card and one BU box off each card ! my BU never runs when I am in PS ? so they wont be battling for bandwidth
we shall see
One card will suffice (500MB/s capable, and the pair will only generate ~350MB/s, assuming you're sticking with the 40GB units from OWC).USB is better, as it would work for any OS (Windows has dropped FW support all together). May not matter now, but could in the long term (i.e. decide to install a Windows installation at a later date). Bandwidth wise, USB 2.0 is fine for optical disks.
OK fresh morning reboot and did your tests with 8 bit mode like you had
the open was 64.5 seconds
the Efficiency was %91
scratch was 14.8/9.06
the save time was 1:26 one minute 26 seconds
Jumpin Jahosafats Batman!!! Saving an 8GB file in 1:26! That is SSSSmokin. This is a real game changer. Your configuration, as described a few pages back is : Two 100 gig OWC RE SSD drives one for cache one for boot. Then an Areca 1222x with 8 750 drives setup raid 6 for working files and two stand along raid 5 boxes one for BackUp one for time machine and other offline offsite setups.
Question : So If I understand this correctly, what you are saving your file to is an 8 member array in RAID 6. That would be 6 disks plus 2 for parity?
Thanks again for running that test file!
JB
The parity data is distributed across all members, and the performance is a result of all disks in the set. The parity calculations and writes are what slows the throughput down from what they'd be capable of in a stripe set. But the redundancy is well worth it, and is only possible in a MP via a proper card, which the ARC-1222x is.
yeah I will run it again just to make sure because ya never know heheheh
but the read itself is good for sure
OK redoing test my machine is doing stuff already ? so a typical working days a ton of stuff running going on yada yada
88 seconds to open
saving/closing generating full composite took 30 seconds 1:23 after that for a total of 1:55
yeah just to repeat what you said
right now this is a raid 6 areaca 1222x seagate 750 drives they are on the OK list
SSSd 100 RE boot and another for scratch
I have 4 1TB hitachis in here now with raid 0 for one more layer of BU when I move data around I like extra plus I am going to put these in raid 1/0 1+0 for another tests to see if this machine becomes the layout or I take the new one ? but they are sitting their so dont count
BU PM case raid 5 with 2TB drives inside and another one for Time machine
we have a server with current client files and I am sending my parents another HDD here soon that goes to another state
for if our house burns down etc.. kinda thing
the next one I might be buying some of those new 3TB seagates frys has them for $199 I have 2.87 or something of data current to send up to parents house yup even at 47 I use my parents house to store my off site stuff hehehehe
otherwise I would use a safety deposit box ? or trusted friends ?
I just buy discs and keep the boxes everything ? copy over pack em back up
my 16 bit were more in line with your times that was the 12.77 gig file though ?
Nano yeah the two cards cause I would need the two for my two backups that was why I said two I tend to speak of my stuff sometimes
and my RE 100 gig tap up close to that 500 so thought breathing room and again I need two PM ports
since i use two PM cases per computer call me paranoid but never lost data in over 30 years on computers
did not know the 40s were that slow ? or that fast depending on how you look at it so yeah the two icy dock me was thinking two SSD one boot one scratch did not make that clear my bad
and yeah for sure my areca is my main
again so many ways to configure things
because ya never know heheheh but the read itself is good for sure
OK redoing test my machine is doing stuff already ? so a typical working days a ton of stuff running going on yada yada
88 seconds to open
saving/closing generating full composite took 30 seconds 1:23 after that for a total of 1:55
yeah just to repeat
what you said right now this is a raid 6 areaca 1222x seagate 750 drives they are on the OK list
SSSd 100 RE boot and another for scratch
I have 4 1TB hitachis in here now with raid 0 for one more layer of BU when I move data around I like extra plus I am going to put these in raid 1/0 1+0 for another tests to see if this machine becomes the layout or I take the new one ? but they are sitting their so dont count
BU PM case raid 5 with 2TB drives inside and another one for Time machine
we have a server with current client files and I am sending my parents another HDD here soon that goes to another state
for if our house burns down etc.. kinda thing
the next one I might be buying some of those new 3TB seagates frys has them for $199 I have 2.87 or something of data current to send up to parents house
yup even at 47 I use my parents house to store my off site stuff hehehehe otherwise I would use a safety deposit box ? or trusted friends ?
I just buy discs and keep the boxes everything ? copy over pack em back up
my 16 bit were more in line with your times that was the 12.77 gig file though ?
Nano yeah the two cards cause I would need the two for my two backups
that was why I said two I tend to speak of my stuff sometimes and my RE 100 gig tap up close to that 500 so thought breathing room
and again I need two PM ports since i use two PM cases per computer
call me paranoid but never lost data in over 30 years on computers did not know the 40s were that slow ? or that fast
depending on how you look at it so yeah the two icy dock me was thinking two SSD one boot one scratch did not make that clear my bad and yeah for sure my areca is my main
again so many ways to configure things
Okay, I see two options here. One route is to go mostly all inside the box, the other is the 8 bay external solution described previously. I've sketched it out with a little little rough pricing to compare the two. From nanofrogs recent reply, it seems like two SSDs in the bottom optical bay is possible, and a third for boot won't saturate the system, which opens up the possibility for the boot in bay1, the 2x SSD for scratch in the bottom optical, then a three member raid 5 in bays 2-3-4. Then the only thing outside the box would be my two FW drives in JBOD for Back up. The other option, which would get me the smoking fast read/writes that honomaui is getting, would be obtained by way of the 8 bay external previously linked.
Option 1: Everything Inside Except for Back Up
32GB Ram
Four 8GB sticks,,, $1,500
Top Optical Bay : Leave the CD Reader in there
Empty Optical Bay : Scratch, RAID 0
2 X 40GB OWC Extreme Pro SSD ,,, $236 for the pair
Internal Bay 1 : Boot + Apps
1x 50GB OWC Extreme Pro RE SSD,,, $200
Internal Bays 2, 3, 4 : Working Data, RAID 5
3x 2TB WD RE4 (RAID Edition) ,,, $900 total for 3
Q: 4TB Capacity?
External FW : Back Up JBOD
Q: Possible saturation / throttle of internal architecture?
Est Total Cost : $2,836
+ Plus Card
+ a mounting bracket, PCIe card, Icy dock or whatever is needed
to put 2 SSD in the bottom optical drive
[..]
Option 2 : 8 Bay External Tower, To Get Smoking Fast Read/Writes
32GB Ram
Four 8GB sticks,,, $1,500
Internal Bay 1 : Boot + Apps
1x 50GB OWC Extreme Pro RE SSD,,, $200
Internal Bay 2 - 3 : RAID 0 Scratch
2 X 40GB OWC Extreme Pro SSD ,,, $236 for the pair
Bay 4 : Open / Expansion
8 Bay External Box : Working Files, RAID 6
Sans Digital Tower RAID ,,, $390
8x 1TB Western Digital RE Raid Edition 32 MB Cache $1,200
6TB capacity?
External FW : Back Up JBOD
Est Total Price : $3,526 + RAID Card
I think both these methods might work, as always, critque is welcome!
--Julian
Option 1: Everything Inside Except for Back Up
32GB Ram
Four 8GB sticks,,, $1,500
Top Optical Bay : Leave the CD Reader in there
Empty Optical Bay : Scratch, RAID 0
2 X 40GB OWC Extreme Pro SSD ,,, $236 for the pair
Internal Bay 1 : Boot + Apps
1x 50GB OWC Extreme Pro RE SSD,,, $200
Internal Bays 2, 3, 4 : Working Data, RAID 5
3x 2TB WD RE4 (RAID Edition) ,,, $900 total for 3
Q: 4TB Capacity?
External FW : Back Up JBOD
Q: Possible saturation / throttle of internal architecture?
Est Total Cost : $2,836
+ Plus Card
+ a mounting bracket, PCIe card, Icy dock or whatever is needed
to put 2 SSD in the bottom optical drive
[..]
Option 2 : 8 Bay External Tower, To Get Smoking Fast Read/Writes
32GB Ram
Four 8GB sticks,,, $1,500
Internal Bay 1 : Boot + Apps
1x 50GB OWC Extreme Pro RE SSD,,, $200
Internal Bay 2 - 3 : RAID 0 Scratch
2 X 40GB OWC Extreme Pro SSD ,,, $236 for the pair
Bay 4 : Open / Expansion
8 Bay External Box : Working Files, RAID 6
Sans Digital Tower RAID ,,, $390
8x 1TB Western Digital RE Raid Edition 32 MB Cache $1,200
6TB capacity?
External FW : Back Up JBOD
Est Total Price : $3,526 + RAID Card
I think both these methods might work, as always, critque is welcome!
--Julian
yeah just to repeat
right now this is a raid 6 areaca 1222x seagate 750 drives they are on the OK list
Cool, but still not clear on the RAID 6. Exactly how many disks on your raid 6 array? Thanks!
8
I have a lot of discs around maybe 60 or more easy ? so for me I used what I had ? I had 13 of all the same disc from a earlier raid setup ?
I would have gotten the 1TB WD RE 3 if I were starting from scratch
I would use a 120 gig for boot ? just the regular even though I have the 100 RE I got them thinking I was going to need them ? thats me
I am a fan of 8 discs in a external to get that extra speed ! if you are going to have a cookie HAVE A COOKIE !!! forgot where I heard that
Add :
- $624 for the RAID card (target = ARC1880i)
- $129 for the MaxUpgrades adapter to use the RAID card internally
- $60 for 3x Icy Dock enclosures (mount the SSD's internally)
- $130 for the PM Enclosure (4 bay unit)
- $480 for 4x 2TB Green HDD's for the JBOD unit (gives you 8TB of backup capacity)
- $80 for the newertech PM eSATA card (faster than the card that comes with the Sans Digital PM enclosure, though it will work)
Grand total = $4339
Performance = 250MB/s or so (based on the 1680 series)
Add:
- $780 for the RAID card (target = ARC1880x)
- $60 for 3x Icy Dock enclosures (mounts the SSD's internally)
- $130 for the PM Enclosure (4 bay unit)
- $480 for 4x 2TB Green HDD's for the JBOD unit (gives you 8TB of backup capacity)
- $80 for the newertech PM eSATA card (faster than the card that comes with the Sans Digital PM enclosure, though it will work)
Grand total = $4276
Performance = 535MB/s (based on the 1680 series; the 1880X should be a bit faster)
So, for $63 less, you even get faster performance.
That's what more disks that cost less each can do for you.
Add :
Add:
- $780 for the RAID card (target = ARC1880x)
- $60 for 3x Icy Dock enclosures (mounts the SSD's internally)
- $130 for the PM Enclosure (4 bay unit)
- $480 for 4x 2TB Green HDD's for the JBOD unit (gives you 8TB of backup capacity)
- $80 for the newertech PM eSATA card (faster than the card that comes with the Sans Digital PM enclosure, though it will work)
Grand total = $4276
Performance = 535MB/s (based on the 1680 series; the 1880X should be a bit faster)
So, for $63 less, you even get faster performance.
Gentlemen, I declare this mission accomplished. It's a wrap. Have a cigar. Have a cookie!
I'm going with the plan listed above. I won't be able to afford everything all at once, but the most important thing is that I have a plan in place that I can grow into over time. I'll get the RAM first, then the SSDs and so on. I had an amazing amount of support from half a dozen members here, and every reply was really helpful, but you two really hung in there with me to the very end. I cannot thank you enough!
-Julian
NP. Once you get it all put together, you'll have a system that screams, causing you to do this...
Sorry for this stupid question...but english is not my first language...and...i don't know the meaning of scratch...could anyone of you please explain me what is it with example ?
Thanks
kind of like a blackboard in a school it gets written on and erased over and over.
ah ok...something like inside the ram, or caches....temp file...
Thanks very much
yes you are close. this is why some say use 2 40gb low cost ssds in raid0 as a big very fast scratch disk. you use it for great speed. ssd are good for the speed but will wear out pretty fast. thats why 2 40gb low cost ones are used. you get that speed at not too terrible a price.
Nanofrog -
Hey... just want to make sure I'm looking at the correct models of some of your recommendations!
Is this the correct model icy dock thingy you are recommending?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994064
Is this the "$80 for the newertech PM eSATA card (faster than the card that comes with the Sans Digital PM enclosure, though it will work) thingy?
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/?APC=XLR8YourMac09
And the Areca 1880x is not available yet, but will be soon?
Thanks again! Julian
Hey... just want to make sure I'm looking at the correct models of some of your recommendations!
Is this the correct model icy dock thingy you are recommending?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994064
Is this the "$80 for the newertech PM eSATA card (faster than the card that comes with the Sans Digital PM enclosure, though it will work) thingy?
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/?APC=XLR8YourMac09
And the Areca 1880x is not available yet, but will be soon?
Thanks again! Julian
Yes.
No, the link you posted is for the non PM enclosure model (only runs 1x disk per port = 2 disks total).
NewerTech MAXPower 6G PCIe eSATA RAID Controller card with port multiplier support = the unit that supports Port Multiplier enclosures, and the price has come down a tad to $75.
I've not called to see if pc-pitstop has it in stock, as the site doesn't say one way or the other. The cards just formally announced on August 9, 2010.
The ATTO models announced earlier, and are still hard to find, so the fact that Areca's are already available as I understand it, is a really good thing, and bodes well for the unavailable models (should be available soon).
I'd call pc-pitstop to see when they'll get it, so you know about when they'd be able to ship one to you (figure 1 - 2 days before they'd pack and ship it to you). But a European supplier (scroll down to near the bottom) claims to have them in stock, so it shouldn't be too long if US suppliers are waiting/already out of their initial stock (US usually gets them first, as it's considered a larger market as I understand it).
I've checked other sources, but they're not even listed (newegg has a few models listed, but not the entire line yet; ARC-1880X = not even listed). Not sure they will carry all of them anyway, going by their past history. I presume they will only carry the models that are most likely to move the fastest (more volume per quarter = more profit).
nanofrog,
Cool, thanks for the links! I''ll be sure to comeback and let you know how she's running when it's all put together. BTW... you should do R & D, or consulting, or maybe have a blog like anandtech or mac performance guide, and sell add space. You have a talent for this stuff. I'm sure you could do quite well, (if the masked man known as nanofrog is not already doing so)
-Julian
Cool, thanks for the links! I''ll be sure to comeback and let you know how she's running when it's all put together. BTW... you should do R & D, or consulting, or maybe have a blog like anandtech or mac performance guide, and sell add space. You have a talent for this stuff. I'm sure you could do quite well, (if the masked man known as nanofrog is not already doing so)
-Julian
What are the reasons none of you have mentioned going the route of pcie SSD-Cards? such as those from OCZ like the revo or p84/ p88 ranging from 265gb to 1T space on the card and amazing sustained writes.
From what I can read, they are potentially faster without all the striping/raid/parity concerns.
I realize they may not be yet ready for mac osx but they will be soon.
Then there are also the new SATAIII-6gb/s ssd from Crucial. Wouldn't those, with appropriate internal or esata controller, just improve upon the same layout as described in the posts above?
From what I can read, they are potentially faster without all the striping/raid/parity concerns.
I realize they may not be yet ready for mac osx but they will be soon.
Then there are also the new SATAIII-6gb/s ssd from Crucial. Wouldn't those, with appropriate internal or esata controller, just improve upon the same layout as described in the posts above?