For all you Wi-Fi borrowers....

[SC68Cal]

Nothing says suspicious like sitting in a parked car with a laptop. Idiot.

 

[mikes63737]

As a previous poster said, I don't mind sharing my wifi if I know who is using it (even though my parents pay for the dsl, but it acts like dial up (he has a 1.2 GHz Celeron Sony Vaio ) I have 2 routers (one routing and one set to act as a bridge) and both of them have hidden SSIDs and I change the SSID every few months, turned off the DHCP server (so they don't know the gateway's IP address) and I use 128 bit WEP. If someone wants to break into my network that badly, fine. All of the computers except my server have firewalls and no sensitive information. And everything is password protected and no ports are open that are unneeded.

 

[IndyGopher]

some have touched on one aspect of the problem with most analogies, ie, that an internet connection is not a normal tangible item.. the other problem with the analogies is that normally one has to seek out most items to take them.

Someone mentioned Christmas decorations. Now, if my neighbor were to string Christmas lights in MY yard, would it still be so cut and dried? Wireless signals by their nature don't stop at property lines... my neighbors bombard me continuously with them. I use (and pay for) my own DSL connection, but I don't think I would be the prosecution's best friend on a jury if someone were being tried for such an offense.

If you set up your sprinkler and the water you pay for lands on my grass as well as your own, am I stealing?

 

[jadekitty24]

If your stupid enough to leave your network open then you have to take some of the blame too. Don't give all the blame to the guy who happened to stumble across an open network.

No one DESERVES to have their belongings stolen, be it a car or bandwidth. To say that is stupid. If your walking down the street and someone drives by and puts a bullet in your head, is it your fault because you were walking down the street? No, it's the fault of the ******* who shot you. And by the way, I'm sure anyone who is too freaking lazy to get a job and pay for what he/she uses didn't exactly "stumble across" a network. Just because it is there for the taking doesn't give you the right to take it.

 

[unixfool]

A related story. I was driving along in my car using my laptop as an MP3 player, I had stopped at a light and was connected to a network. So, I pulled over and looked at where it was coming from. It was coming from the Sherrif's department on the corner. I was connected to it automatically because it wasn't password protected. If they leave a network wide open like that, I could imagine what they're internal network security must be, I probably could've wreaked all kinds of havoc on their network, had I been inclined.

Any office such as a police station should be using enterprise-level network setups. That WAP should have been set up securely. Even then, it should have been put on the DMZ and firewalled from the rest of their networks. Also, it could've also been considered a 'rogue' WAP, a WAP that was possibly set up by some unknowing (or knowing) employee that wanted to be able to access the network anywhere in the building and set up a home WAP without asking for permission. We see that scenario all the time in my line of work: "But, I wanted to be able to work while eating my lunch outside!"

The new world of WAP just complicates security in the extreme in most industries. I've seen companies that do not sanction WAPs at all and will deny users any laptops into their domain that haven't met stringent criteria. I can see why, as I see many infections to customer networks that begin with someone bringing in a home laptop that has been infected by Slammer and other worms. All it usually takes is one innocent connection to the network and BLAM...all hell breaks loose.

 

[unixfool]

I don't see it as theft. I think it's more like reading somebody's paper over his shoulder, or watching your neighbors' TV through their window. Certainly it's not polite, but is it theft? It's not the same than the kids who stole that christmas decoration, because they left the owner without it. If somebody piggybacks in your internet connection, you still have it.

Using someone else's resources without their knowledge is and always will be considered theft. Talking around the issue won't change that. Many people using computer technology aren't as bright as some of you self-proclaimed geeks. There will always be the moms and pops that aren't technically inclined. If you're not familiar with technology, the docs included with WAPs are gonna look like japanese. I'm not excusing ignorance but those stealing bandwidth from others or trying to justify it might want to talk to their local law enforcement on the subject. I'm sure you'll get an earful if you present the same arguments in the same manner that alot of you have here.

 

[GITANAJAVA]

An Abundance of Umbrage & High Dudgeon...

....so I can only assume from what I've read here no one's ever taken a shortcut across a neighbour's yard or field without first securing permission or an easement; you leave a pub promptly after discovering its owner hasn't paid copyright fees for the bands, the telly, the radio, or the jukebox; you'd never-ever accept a mixed CD from a friend without enquiring first about its provenance; and because your neighbour keeps his yard light on at night and it's bright enough to spare you turning on yours, you're ready with the cash to pay his electric rates.

Tsk, tsk.

 

[Kingsly]

linksys is a good choice, as is 'NETGEAR'.

Unfortunately 2wire access points have grown in popularity...they have WEP on by default.

Those 2wire modems are dang impossible to, uh, "access".

What does the law say if the wifi is broadcast unprotected? Sure, hacking into a protected network is bad... but if its broadcasting for everyone to use?

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Leaving the keys in the ignition and leaving you house doors unlocks it's pretty idiotic you're almost inviting trouble. Here in NY if you leave your keys in the ignition and someone "steals" your car it isn't grand theft auto it's called unauthorized use and is a low misdemeanor.

Ignorance is no excuse you remember to set your car alarm and lock 1 sometimes 2 locks when you leave your house. The same should apply to your 'net connection.

Hooray for NY for having some commonsense laws in place. I also believe that insurance companies need to start denying claims for people that leave doors unlocked, and keys in the ignition.

If a net connection is left open, then it should be assumed that it is free for public use.

More the reason for cities and counties to provide free WI-FI for the masses. Limit it to low end DSL speeds in order to encourage people that need higher speeds to by services from cable and the such.

It seems pretty clear cut to me. It is theft. Petty theft, but theft nonetheless. It comes down to this: I'm paying for something, and you're using what I'm paying for without compensating me for it. Whether it harms me in some measurable way or not is not the point. I'm spent my hard-earned money for internet access and a router. If someone wants internet access they should pay for it themselves.

I mean, wow. I can't believe people are actually trying to defend this. I guess you would all be happy to let some stranger live in your house for free when you aren't there as long as they cleaned up after themselves. Or tap into your cable TV service for free as long as it didn't degrade your picture quality.

But as with any property, it is up to you to make sure it is secure.

My neighbor's Christmas decorations were stolen a few years ago. They weren't locked down and they were sitting right out in the open. He filed a police report. The police found the two teenagers that did it and my neighbor pressed charges. The kids had to do community service for theft. Are you seriously trying to tell me that these two teenagers did nothing wrong and it was my neighbor's fault for leaving the decorations out in the open?

There is a concept in the law IIRC of reasonable exceptions of security. With the Xmas decorations, there is no way to secure them - so their theft is a crime.

The problem is that we are trying to place old values on new technology.

I hate news articles like the one posted, for it does not give all the details of the case. For one, we don't know if the owner let the connection open on purpose. We also don't know if there are direct laws regarding this sort of "crime" in Winnebago County. If there are laws on the books, how do they define illegal use verses when some leaves it open to share? I do applaud the police for looking into someone just sitting around in a neighborhood; but I do hope that the police in Winnebago County, and the prosecutors office goes after speeders, red light runners, those that "block the box", and the jaywalkers with the same vengeance.

If my neighbor has a cable modem and an unprotected wireless network, and I access it, even benignly (not downloading anything but page views, no accessing kiddie pron or anything), and even if my neighbor is cool with it, aren't I still stealing the service from the cable company providing the access (or at least I'm avoiding having to make my own monthly cable payment for the access)? How is this different than piggy backing off someone's cable TV signal?

I see your point. But cable TV providers do take great pains to limit theft of the cable TV signal. For cable internet, they have yet to take the precautions to prevent "theft" of that bandwidth. Just another example of the laws not meeting technology. So far providers don't seem to be too worried.

If you think about the potential lost revenue for the service providers, then you see what is going to drive making wardriving illegal. Just like stealing cable, the ones at risk here are the providers selling the service. When people steal a revenue opportunity from Comcast, it gets noticed.

As of now wardriving is a small issue that does not merit providers attention. I have done some wardriving myself - checking email, quick web searches and the such. I can't see myself sitting in my car for hours on end downloading a video. Or doing the same in some hotel lobby.

In the example of hotel lobbies, the intent is for the WI-FI to be used by guests. But since they do not use any security measures to protect that bandwidth, they are by default offering it for public use.

Hotels are not stupid. They realize that some surfers are buying drinks, snacks, and food. Add to that the goodwill of free access that might have a wardriver consider staying at their property.

some have touched on one aspect of the problem with most analogies, ie, that an internet connection is not a normal tangible item.. the other problem with the analogies is that normally one has to seek out most items to take them.

Someone mentioned Christmas decorations. Now, if my neighbor were to string Christmas lights in MY yard, would it still be so cut and dried? Wireless signals by their nature don't stop at property lines... my neighbors bombard me continuously with them. I use (and pay for) my own DSL connection, but I don't think I would be the prosecution's best friend on a jury if someone were being tried for such an offense.

If you set up your sprinkler and the water you pay for lands on my grass as well as your own, am I stealing?

You raise some great points.

I would think that if the free access issue was a big point for providers, then we would see routers that demand the end user to setup of security.

No one DESERVES to have their belongings stolen, be it a car or bandwidth. To say that is stupid. If your walking down the street and someone drives by and puts a bullet in your head, is it your fault because you were walking down the street? No, it's the fault of the ******* who shot you. And by the way, I'm sure anyone who is too freaking lazy to get a job and pay for what he/she uses didn't exactly "stumble across" a network. Just because it is there for the taking doesn't give you the right to take it.

Bad analogy. With "property" there are things to protect them from theft. Short of never leaving ones home, you can never be "secure" when walking the streets.

You miss the point that some leave their connections open, so that others can do quick visits to the web. How are we to know these people that believe in helping out with their excess bandwidth from those too stupid to protect their property?

Using someone else's resources without their knowledge is and always will be considered theft. Talking around the issue won't change that. Many people using computer technology aren't as bright as some of you self-proclaimed geeks. There will always be the moms and pops that aren't technically inclined. If you're not familiar with technology, the docs included with WAPs are gonna look like japanese. I'm not excusing ignorance but those stealing bandwidth from others or trying to justify it might want to talk to their local law enforcement on the subject. I'm sure you'll get an earful if you present the same arguments in the same manner that alot of you have here.

From the routers I have set up in my time, they make it very clear about setting up security to protect your assets. So the ignorance excuse does not work. Again I will state that the law looks at things differently with hard property. I think most courts would be hard pressed with you placing an iMac on your lawn as to if I took it, whether you or I were wrong. The popular excuse of entrapment used against the police comes to mind.

....so I can only assume from what I've read here no one's ever taken a shortcut across a neighbour's yard or field without first securing permission or an easement; you leave a pub promptly after discovering its owner hasn't paid copyright fees for the bands, the telly, the radio, or the jukebox; you'd never-ever accept a mixed CD from a friend without enquiring first about its provenance; and because your neighbour keeps his yard light on at night and it's bright enough to spare you turning on yours, you're ready with the cash to pay his electric rates.

Tsk, tsk.

So right you are. I find that the world is filled with holy rollers. Given that we just past Tax Day here in the US, how many added a few dollars to their donations? How many never do even 2mph over the speed limit? How many buy over the internet and never pay the "use tax" that many states require? Or how many go in to stores to touch and feel the merchandise; only with the intent on buying elsewhere at the cheapest price?

All of these are either cheating, or disobeying the law. I know that we will see some posts from those that need to be put up for sainthood. But sin is inherit in our nature. Adam and Eve showed our failings there. That is why Jesus died for for our sins.

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

I look at it like this.

Say your neighbour had a car that he only drives in the weekend and it sits just outside your house all week. He doesn't bother to lock his car.
Now would it be wrong to just borrow it for short trip you need to make during the week If he never finds out?

Probably not.

Now would be bad to borrow the car for the whole week and drive it across the country on hoilday using all his gas.

Probably.


The end of my story.

 

[dejo]

But as with any property, it is up to you to make sure it is secure.

But not securing my property does not give a thief permission to steal it. Theft laws are in place to prevent loss of property, regardless of whether the property was secured or not.

All of these are either cheating, or disobeying the law. I know that we will see some posts from those that need to be put up for sainthood. But sin is inherit in our nature. Adam and Eve showed our failings there. That is why Jesus died for for our sins.

Way to make this into a religious argument. Please take that to the proper forum.

 

[emaja]

Say your neighbour had a car that he only drives in the weekend and it sits just outside your house all week. He doesn't bother to lock his car. Now would it be wrong to just borrow it for short trip you need to make during the week If he never finds out?

Probably not.

Huh? That's just plain silly. If you take a car without the owner's authorization, the cops aren't going to let you off if you give it back. It is theft - plain and simple.

You simply do not take something that someone else is paying for without their permission. Period. End of story. No further discussion.

I can't believe that there is anyone who actually defends this kind of "borrowing."

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

Huh? That's just plain silly. If you take a car without the owner's authorization, the cops aren't going to let you off if you give it back. It is theft - plain and simple.

You simply do not take something that someone else is paying for without their permission. Period. End of story. No further discussion.

I can't believe that there is anyone who actually defends this kind of "borrowing."

What if it's only a small trip? Nobody would know, it'd be O.K. then.

It's only borrowing, it's not like stealing or anything. Stealing the car would be wrong.

It's just like wi-fi a wee bit of bandwidth is ok but if you "borrow" the poor neighbours whole download limit then that'd be wrong because he want to use it and should be able to because after all he's paying for it.

Some people are so me, me,me,mine,mine, mine, I own it and don't like to share. Their parents didn't teach them the right things in life like sharing things you're not actually going to use all of.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Way to make this into a religious argument. Please take that to the proper forum.

That was not my intent. Some here poised themselves as being candidates for sainthood; because they NEVER break any laws. But the reality is that they are guilty in day-to-day laws and customs.

Keep in mind that in the US we have the basis in law based on common law. Under common law, IMO those that leave their internet connection "open" would loose rights to seek compensation; and the state no right to seek prosecution.

Many of our "laws" are perverted to support the the business interests. Only because they have the money to contribute to the lobbyists and the PACs.

One only has to look at my posts here to see that I don't have a religious agenda. I am spiritual in my beliefs. But I try not evangelize those beliefs. In this case I was trying to point to failings by some in passing judgment.

I do believe in the idea that one with out sin, should cast the first stone. Is that trying to press an agenda? Not as I meant my post.

I am not a "born again Christian"; but one that was raised and "trained" in basic "truths" that many "books" have sought to teach us.

Sorry if this hit a nerve in discussion of this issue.

 

[Jschultz]

I'm actually typing this right now using my neighbors 'linksys' connection.

Even if he found out, he'd be cool with it though. One time he tried tapping into our cable and ordering porn while my grandma was watching TV. We somehow were able to see HIS actions on our screen. Apparently he's a sucker for barely legals

 

[The Mad Kiwi]

I'm actually typing this right now using my neighbors 'linksys' connection.

Even if he found out, he'd be cool with it though. One time he tried tapping into our cable and ordering porn while my grandma was watching TV. We somehow were able to see HIS actions on our screen. Apparently he's a sucker for barely legals

This is cool, see you obviously get on with your neighbours, as I do mine, I think some of the people are the neighbours from hell and obviously live in those kind of suburbs where all the people don't actually talk to each other and would call the cops if they caught you using their wi-fi.

I mean what sort of neighbour would actually call the cops if you were borrowing their wi-fi.

 

[Dunepilot]

When you pay for DSL or cable internet or any other type, you get a certain upstream and downstream speed. If someone is using some of my bandwidth, then I am getting slower internet then what I paid for.

I left mine unprotected for the first few weeks we were in our new house, because I actually don't mind people sharing my bandwidth, as long as it doesn't cause a significantly noticeable difference in the performance of my connection. I think people need to revisit the matter of sharing broadband connections with their neighbours, but I'm not sure how it should be done.

Anyway, when I noticed that my connection was slowing down *a lot*, I then turned WEP on. Clearly some joker was using my connection for heavy p2p, which isn't on.

 

[mikes63737]

What does the law say if the wifi is broadcast unprotected? Sure, hacking into a protected network is bad... but if its broadcasting for everyone to use?

That's a really good point. They *could* be trying to run a hotspot. Although the average person doesn't know what a hotspot it...

 

[milo]

I don't see why using an open network is such a big deal.

If you find a network that has been left unsecured, how do you know the user didn't intentionally leave it open so others might share it?

It's like at work when someone leaves a big bowl of candy on the corner of their desk. Are they offering it to passers by, or if you take one are you stealing?

 

[grapes911]

If you find a network that has been left unsecured, how do you know the user didn't intentionally leave it open so others might share it?

Just because someone leaves their connection open doesn't mean the ISP gives you their permission to use it. It's no different than stealing cable.

 

[milo]

Just because someone leaves their connection open doesn't mean the ISP gives you their permission to use it. It's no different than stealing cable.

I suppose technically you're not supposed to share your connection. But I wonder if that's really enforcable, even if the ISP could find out. Most ISP's say you're only supposed to have one computer hooked up, but we all know how often that's ignored.

 

[Play Ultimate]

A few comments:
1) There seems to be a big difference between jumping onto somebody's network from the sanctity of your own house vs. trolling neighborhoods with a wi-fi scanner and parking in front of a house.

2) My suspicion is the guy was acting as a stalker in front of a house and the police had nothing else to charge him with.

3) Do I have rights to not have somebody else's radio broadcast infringe on my property? If you send radio waves onto my property do I have a right to access it? Or can I force you to turn it off?

4) The radio frequency spectrum is regulated by the FCC. Thus certain rights have been granted/sold for TV, radio, Hams, CB, cell phones. WiFi is an unregulated spectrum, which is so many of us can use it without paying a broadcast fee to the FCC.

5) Most of the analogies don't seem to really apply.
a. The lawn watering is close. However, if I don't want the water on my property, the owner has an obligation to keep it off. (e.g. watering their lawn while my car is in my driveway. I would prefer it not get wet.)
b. Stealing of bandwidth? Doesn't that also apply everytime somebody from out of state uses the roads. (I paid my taxes for our state road system, and people with out of state plates are clogging it up without paying for it!!) Hmmm.

I'll think more about this later.

 

[grapes911]

I suppose technically you're not supposed to share your connection. But I wonder if that's really enforcable, even if the ISP could find out.

We probably won't know for a given area until there is a court case in that area.

Most ISP's say you're only supposed to have one computer hooked up, but we all know how often that's ignored.

Many broadband providers have done away with that over the last few years. When Verizon came to my parents house to hook up FIOS, they actually checked both computers to make sure the internet was working. The offered to check up to 5.

 

[emaja]

What if it's only a small trip? Nobody would know, it'd be O.K. then.

It's only borrowing, it's not like stealing or anything. Stealing the car would be wrong.

What's the difference between borrowing and stealing then - getting caught? I dare you to try that defense when "borrowing" that car if the police pull up behind you. They might have a different opinion.

Some people are so me, me,me,mine,mine, mine, I own it and don't like to share. Their parents didn't teach them the right things in life like sharing things you're not actually going to use all of.

I am not saying not to share, but sharing involves the consent of the "share-ee." If your neighbor knows you are using his connection, and gives the OK, then it is obviously not stealing.

The amount of rationalization on this topic is staggering to me. Broadband is not free. You want it - pay for it yourself.

 

[Don't panic]

Not to mention listening to someone else's XM radio can't hurt anything.

unless of course you are in the uk, in which case you could be arrested for listening to the 'wrong' music...