Ford Announces Plans For Fully Autonomous Self-Driving Car By 2021

[TallManNY]

... and is there any consumer liability? While self driving cars are all the rage of high-margin car sellers, this whole thing could go the way of the Edsel and the Corvair if the marketing or manufacturing is not done right. Self driving cars are far from being a done deal.
[doublepost=1471483192][/doublepost]
Entire markets can have a seismic shift with the rhetoric you are quoting having no meaning. Here are a few "what if's" that would throw your predictions out the window.

* oil fields or oil refineries can open up driving the cost of gasoline down to below a dollar a gallon
* Global Warning advocates could be prosecuted for Securities Fraud based on fraudulent research data
* the price of Lithium and other heavy metals for car batteries can skyrocket due to a third world political instability
* automotive manufactures see large class-action consumer liability lawsuits concerning self driving cars
* insurance companies refuse to issue policies or have very high premiums for electric or self driving cars
* the UAW (United Auto Workers) moves into electric car companies, driving up the manufacturer labor cost
* a major wireless virus hops from smart car to smart car creating a PR disaster
* large segments of the mass market refuses to purchase due to a social stigma of driving electric cars

Work a year at a time, crystal ball gazers are stuck in carnivals and beach-side amusement parks for a reason.

But predictions are much more fun in the future. If you want year ahead predictions, I will give you one. Tesla's car will come out at the end of 2017, but it will make a 2017 ship date. It will be good. It will sell out. No one will cancel their deposit and in fact there will be a secondary market for people to sell their place in line because the Tesla will be on backorder through 2018.

By 2018 though, most of the major manufacturers will have an EV that competes on some level with Tesla's $35k model, but undercutting it in price from $5k to $10k.

My long term prediction is that the price of batteries decreases as larger manufacturing facilities get involved in their production. The dropping price of batteries will be the major but not the only component driving the price of EVs down. Their performance will also increase. And charging stations will become more common.

As far as your predictions, none of those seem likely or even possible. Gas is never dropping down to below a dollar a gallon, but it could stay cheap (like under $2) for a long time as demand decreases.

I have no idea when self driving cars will exist for the marketplace, but the folks involved in the tech seem to have determined that it is mainly just a CPU/programming challenge and simply a hard task but not an impossible one. If it is just we need a stronger CPU and better programming, then it will happen. It basically becomes inevitable as CPUs will get faster and programming is something that just takes time. If it is a sensor issue in that we can't get enough data to the CPU under adverse conditions, then we might have an issue. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[AlexGraphicD]

Some people miss the point that just because Tesla is using some fossil fuel byproducts then it's not any better than gas...actually it is not about being perfect rather than minimizing the harm and our footprint in the environment as much as we can. And it is a fact that EV is less damaging to the environment than gas vehicles.

Also if we are talking about sustainability and what is causing more harm to the environment more than all of the car industry both gas and EV combined as well as all the air transportation together that would be the meat industry.

That is the elephant in the room that no politician or organization is not mentioning when talking about sustainability and environmental preservation.

 

[TallManNY]

There needs to be a big change in the charging infrastructure as EVs go mainstream: I can only speak from the UK perspective where - currently - there are a couple of charging bays (probably 1 or 2 of whichever type you need) at most Motorway service stations. That's great for the current level of EV ownership and they're usually vacant (if not, then hope that you have enough juice to get 20-30 miles to the next station or don't mind waiting an unknown period for the bay to be free).

Now, walk over to the petrol pumps and see the throughput of re-fuelled ICE cars per minute, bearing in mind that (a) ICE cars need fuelling less frequently and (b) Don't mention home charging: motorway services are the most expensive places to get petrol, so almost everybody you see there has needed to fill up mid-journey rather than using cheap fuel from their local supermarket. That's the sort of charging capacity that would be needed to support widespread EV uptake - and unless in 2021 someone has invented the 5-minute battery charger you're going to need lots of EV bays to get that capacity: probably about 60 EV bays to match the throughput of a dozen petrol pumps.

...and when the majority of EV owners are no longer the most wealthy customers, but still expect super-cheap charging, where's the incentive for that much expansion?

The other issue is on-street charging for people living in towns with no driveways. That would affect a lot of people (and not just poor people!)

The on-street charging is an issue for people who don't regularly garage their cars. But a person who on-street parks and then drives their car to work where they also on-street park is probably pretty rare. Once the big box stores who have a parking lot start adding in a few spaces with chargers that you pay for while you shop, this issue might be resolved even for them. But if you drive to a garage, I'm sure in five years you will be able to choose an option to get "topped off" when you leave your car. That is pretty much just going to require the garage to invest in some heavy duty extension cords. So this will happen.

 

[69Mustang]

We shall see. But EV cars are a technology. And one thing we seen with new technology is that as the manufacturing base ramps up the, the price goes down. And this is at the same time as the technology gets better. The car portion of an EV and ICE are the same cost (wheels and body), but the ICE has been optimized and reached scale in manufacturing. We can expect no significant advances or cost reductions.

But if Tesla can actually make a $35k car in 2017 (and I have some skepticism as well, though not so much as to endanger my hat), then other companies will be able to make a $30k one in 2019. And then a $25k in 2021. Or a $20k one that is no frills like a $15k ICE. But the EV will be more dependable, perform better, and drive cheaper due to certain intrinsic properties of the technology. Remember Tesla's "ludicrous mode" is a freaking software update. It costs Tesla nothing to turn your great car into having super car performance levels. That is because the tech of EV on some levels is just better than ICE. Now it just needs to get cheaper. But tech ramping up in manufacturing levels does that all the time. This is unlikely to be an exception.

We disagree again... on some things. No advances or cost reductions? Untrue. From materials to manufacturing processes to design there have been significant advances in the auto industry. Nissan will soon introduce a variable compression engine. CFRP and aluminum construction reaching lower tier cars. Not to mention all the tech in cars making them more efficient. Hybrid drivetrains increasing mileage.

Tesla... Tesla, Tesla, Tesla. I like Tesla. I even like Musk. I think he's a visionary in some instances and a carnival barker in others. I also think he needs to shut the hell up and build cars. At times, he's Tesla's worst enemy. He's a hype machine. I understand why. He's gotta keep that investor money coming in until he can actually turn a profit. But he needs to find a balance between keeping investor confidence and writing checks his ass can't cash. If the first Model 3 rolls off the line before Feb 2018 I would be shocked. Those first cars will be plagued with problems just like the S and the X.
And this: "But the EV will be more dependable, perform better, and drive cheaper due to certain intrinsic properties of the technology. Remember Tesla's "ludicrous mode" is a freaking software update. It costs Tesla nothing to turn your great car into having super car performance levels."
Serious question. What makes you think EV's will be more dependable and perform better? Fact's based on current EV's don't support your assertion. I do think they could be cheaper to drive, but that depends on who's footing the bill for the battery and motor replacements. Tesla does it now, but they can't continue to do it in perpetuity... and survive.
Ludicrous mode... an aptly named double entendre if there ever was one. A software update that costs (sit down) $10K. Software... update... $10K And what do you get for the $10k? A 10% reduction in 0-60 ET's. You can't drive around in that mode so you're not getting supercar performance. $10K for a software update makes Apple's prices for memory upgrades seem like bargain. Oh, and that $10K doesn't include installation labor. Enough about Tesla. I think they're great cars, just not the holy grail some make them out to be. One more thing... I pray Elon kills the nose on the Model 3. It looks like the lip from Leela on Futurama.

"other companies will be able to make a $30k one in 2019. And then a $25k in 2021..." Not sure where you're from but car makers typically don't lower the price of cars, they raise them. Any cost reductions are typically turned into profit, not price reductions for customers.

Apologies for the length.

 

[theluggage]

...or getting a fossil fuel burning gas guzzler conventional car that not only damages the environment but requires the user to do a whole bunch of maintenance and ongoing expenses changing and replacing all the junk under the bonnet that fail.

Because Teslas don't have tyres, brake fluid, brake pads or wiper blades, the windscreens never get chipped, the air con never needs recharging, the electric drive train is 100% maintenance-free and the batteries last forever... right? Stop being ridiculous.

Not sure what heap-of-junk ICE cars you've experienced that need more than a couple of hundred bucks on an annual service - plus the same perishables as above - to keep them running reliably for 5+ years.

Tesla has proven you can design and develop a superbly satisfying electric car that goes super fast, with long driving range, which costs less over its life and helps preserve the environment.

...and I agree with every word apart from the "long driving range" bit, when ICEs have twice the "driving range" and can be completely refuelled in a couple of minutes from a vast network of filling stations (& the option of strapping a jerry can to the back if you're really heading out to the sticks) giving them an almost indefinite effective range. Sure - Teslas have great range compared to other EVs. Now, the top-of-the-range Tesla S with the ~300 mile range would be OK for me - but for the quarter of that price I can get a compact ICE from a good brand that is pretty economical for the daily commute & grocery runs and can also handle a 400 mile road trip without worrying a jot about refuelling strategies. I'd need an awful lot of oil changes - and a much higher annual mileage - to get back that price difference.

I'm certainly looking at the Tesla 3 with interest, but it all hinges on the assumption that the base model will be comparable with the sort of luxury ICE car you can get for $35k (or maybe $30k if the current incentive schemes survive)... we'll see. Of course, lots of people wouldn't pay $30k for a car anyhow and there are good solid options (without the premium badges) for a lot less. Personally, its about what I'd pay for a fully tricked out new car (so the options are important).

400,000 people around the world put a deposit to BUY and OWN a very cool electric car.

Sad but true: there are more than 400,000 people in the world for whom $1000 is loose change, especially if that $1000 is fully refundable and they're caught up in a hypegasm like the Model 3 "launch".

You can go on pretending that Tesla have good-as-sold 400,000 cars (and secured a $400m interest free loan) right up until the point the order books open for real and we find out how many of those people are actually going to stump up the full $35k (or $42k if Musk is right about options) and how much money has to be refunded. There will be a drop-out rate (if nothing else, people will have lost jobs, made babies, blown their money on other things). Hopefully for Tesla it will be small, and easily made up from new orders. However, if the price changes, if the standard options aren't up to snuff, if other competition emerges (Apple?) or the existing doubts over whether Tesla is even capable of manufacturing that number of cars grow, then who knows? Musk is riding the tiger of Internet hype - he could get bitten.

I've never experienced that many people putting their confidence into preordering a car,

I don't recall anybody (effectively) trying to crowdfund the development of a new car model in quite the way Tesla has before. Generally, if you put down a deposit there's at least a risk that you'll lose some of it if you don't follow through. That's the point of a deposit. Sorry, but "unconditionally refundable deposit" is, basically, "register an interest". At best its "serious callers only".

 

[smacrumon]

Because Teslas don't have tyres, brake fluid, brake pads or wiper blades, the windscreens never get chipped, the air con never needs recharging, the electric drive train is 100% maintenance-free and the batteries last forever... right? Stop being ridiculous.

Not sure what heap-of-junk ICE cars you've experienced that need more than a couple of hundred bucks on an annual service - plus the same perishables as above - to keep them running reliably for 5+ years.



...and I agree with every word apart from the "long driving range" bit, when ICEs have twice the "driving range" and can be completely refuelled in a couple of minutes from a vast network of filling stations (& the option of strapping a jerry can to the back if you're really heading out to the sticks) giving them an almost indefinite effective range. Sure - Teslas have great range compared to other EVs. Now, the top-of-the-range Tesla S with the ~300 mile range would be OK for me - but for the quarter of that price I can get a compact ICE from a good brand that is pretty economical for the daily commute & grocery runs and can also handle a 400 mile road trip without worrying a jot about refuelling strategies. I'd need an awful lot of oil changes - and a much higher annual mileage - to get back that price difference.

I'm certainly looking at the Tesla 3 with interest, but it all hinges on the assumption that the base model will be comparable with the sort of luxury ICE car you can get for $35k (or maybe $30k if the current incentive schemes survive)... we'll see. Of course, lots of people wouldn't pay $30k for a car anyhow and there are good solid options (without the premium badges) for a lot less. Personally, its about what I'd pay for a fully tricked out new car (so the options are important).



Sad but true: there are more than 400,000 people in the world for whom $1000 is loose change, especially if that $1000 is fully refundable and they're caught up in a hypegasm like the Model 3 "launch".

You can go on pretending that Tesla have good-as-sold 400,000 cars (and secured a $400m interest free loan) right up until the point the order books open for real and we find out how many of those people are actually going to stump up the full $35k (or $42k if Musk is right about options) and how much money has to be refunded. There will be a drop-out rate (if nothing else, people will have lost jobs, made babies, blown their money on other things). Hopefully for Tesla it will be small, and easily made up from new orders. However, if the price changes, if the standard options aren't up to snuff, if other competition emerges (Apple?) or the existing doubts over whether Tesla is even capable of manufacturing that number of cars grow, then who knows? Musk is riding the tiger of Internet hype - he could get bitten.



I don't recall anybody (effectively) trying to crowdfund the development of a new car model in quite the way Tesla has before. Generally, if you put down a deposit there's at least a risk that you'll lose some of it if you don't follow through. That's the point of a deposit. Sorry, but "unconditionally refundable deposit" is, basically, "register an interest". At best its "serious callers only".

I have a deposit on the Tesla Model 3 and ready to make a final payment for my order. $35,000 is nothing when you consider the total costs and troubles of running traditional gas guzzler or hybrid vehicles. Take the Chevrolet Volt, an electric and gas hybrid, starts at $33,170. The costs of refuelling every week with gas, petrol, diesel etc add up.

Electric vehicles are a no brainer at this point especially when it comes to ongoing costs.

It is very strange how you are here, on a technology forum, talking down progressive electric high tech vehicles like Tesla and instead are talking up internal combustion engine polluting old style cars like Ford. It is very telling. When the traditional fossil fuel burning engine is removed a long with a lot of the related and unnecessary junk, there's a lot more empty space for a second front trunk and more fun.

Ford Focus
Junk

vs

Tesla Model S
Fun

​

 

[C DM]

I have a deposit on the Tesla Model 3 and ready to make a final payment for my order. $35,000 is nothing when you consider the total costs and troubles of running traditional gas guzzler or hybrid vehicles. Take the Chevrolet Volt, an electric and gas hybrid, starts at $33,170. The costs of refuelling every week with gas, petrol, diesel etc add up.

Electric vehicles are a no brainer at this point especially when it comes to ongoing costs.

It is very strange how you are here, on a technology forum, talking down progressive electric high tech vehicles like Tesla and instead are talking up internal combustion engine polluting old style cars like Ford. It is very telling. When the traditional fossil fuel burning engine is removed a long with a lot of the related and unnecessary junk, there's a lot more empty space for a second front trunk and more fun.

Ford Focus
Junk

vs

Tesla Model S
Fun

​

The vast majority of the real world isn't what represented by a tiny minute minority of a subset of users in forums like this one. It's certainly great that you think what you think and you will do what you will do, and that many others might be like that as well, but an even greater number of others (a much greater number of others) won't go about things the same way at all, and the world will still be the way it will be.

None of what has been brought up changes the fact that many many people will still find $35K+ too much to spend on a car (no matter the maintenance or fuel costs that would apply after the fact to a cheaper car), nor that everyone who put down $1000 to reserve their place in line and show their interest will actually end up purchasing the car, nor that the car doesn't require maintenance for all kinds other components even if things like oil changes and various other ones won't apply to it. Reality is reality, it's just that simple.

 

[smacrumon]

The vast majority of the real world isn't what represented by a tiny minute minority of a subset of users in forums like this one. It's certainly great that you think what you think and you will do what you will do, and that many others might be like that as well, but an even greater number of others (a much greater number of others) won't go about things the same way at all, and the world will still be the way it will be.

None of what has been brought up changes the fact that many many people will still find $35K+ too much to spend on a car (no matter the maintenance or fuel costs that would apply after the fact to a cheaper car), nor that everyone who put down $1000 to reserve their place in line and show their interest will actually end up purchasing the car, nor that the car doesn't require maintenance for all kinds other components even if things like oil changes and various other ones won't apply to it. Reality is reality, it's just that simple.

"and the world will still be the way it will be" -- wishful thinking, world is changing for the better. Say hello to Uber and every disruptive business in the past few years.
Well if $35K is too expensive, good news, Tesla is working on their next and even cheaper model so more people can climb aboard.
Your reality, is not reality.

 

[C DM]

"and the world will still be the way it will be" -- wishful thinking, world is changing for the better. Say hello to Uber and every disruptive business in the past few years.
Well if $35K is too expensive, good news, Tesla is working on their next and even cheaper model so more people can climb aboard.
Your reality, is as you describe it, is not the reality you to claim it to be.

Things change, but certainly not at the speed and in the way you seem to make it out to be. The reality is certainly much closer to the type that I and various other describe it as than what you are describing it as, at least certainly in the context of the timeframes that are being discussed.

 

[smacrumon]

Things change, but certainly not at the speed and in the way you seem to make it out to be. The reality is certainly much closer to the type that I and various other describe it as than what you are describing it as, at least certainly in the context of the timeframes that are being discussed.

Just watch. It will be faster thank any of us anticipate.

 

[theluggage]

The costs of refuelling every week with gas, petrol, diesel etc add up.

OK, lets add them up:
The new equivalent of my current car (which is a compact from a fairly premium brand) is a bit over £20k. The only current cars that I could tolerate, range wise, are the Tesla S 75 which is £56k after government rebate, or the BMW i3 range extender which is about £30k after rebate. As for the Tesla Model 3 - convert to £, add VAT, subtract rebate - I get about £27,800, but I'm sure (like Apple) Tesla will add a bit for moving the steering wheel to the other side and adding all the missing "u"s to the documentation so its probably going to be the thick end of £30k, too (and that's if the rebate scheme is still going in 2018 - our new PM doesn't seem very green). Anyway, the 3 isn't available yet, no full price list & no UK prices so I'm gonna go with the i3. It's closer to what I'd want, anyway. So, basically, I'd be paying £10k over the odds

According to the BBC, the average miles driven per year is 7900 (if you want to use US figures, which may be higher, remember to use US gas prices, which are a lot lower). Lets call that 8000.

My current car is rated 50mpg, but lets call that 40mpg for realism (or were you assuming all ICEs are 13mpg SUV?)

UK petrol is about £1.10/litre = £5/gallon at the moment (Yup, told you not to quibble with those low UK annual mileages)

So, I make that 8000 divided by 40 times £5 = £1000/year.

So, over 5 years I'm only going to save £5000 c.f. the extra £10,000 premium I paid to get an EV. I think that extra £5k will easily pay for 5 years worth of oil changes (esp. as the first few will be under warranty) and a new timing belt. Best case - if I've been pessimistic over the price of the Tesla 3 - I might break even.

Oh, and that's assuming that an EV charges for free - which it won't - especially if EVs become more common and charging stations have to provide more capacity make a profit rather than just attracting affluent Tesla S owners to restaurants, and all that home charging still goes on your electricity bill. I'm sure it will be much less than petrol, but its still a cost.

NB: did you hear that you won't get free supercharger access with your Model 3? Told you to watch those extras - and it will be interesting to see what the scheme costs, especially for all those users who only use superchargers on occasional long trips, or maybe just need them for insurance against being stuck in a traffic jam with the air con running...

Sorry - that is not a no-brainer.

The other unknown is depreciation: it's possible that in 3-5 years time my gas burner will be unsaleable and everybody will be in EVs. However, ICEs are mature tech, while (modern) EVs are in their infancy so it's almost inevitable that current EVs will become hopelessly obsolete in a few years.

It is very strange how you are here, on a technology forum, talking down progressive electric high tech vehicles

The only thing I'm talking down is their cost (which is too much to recoup from fuel savings unless you have an above-average annual mileage), and their unsuitability for journeys > 100 miles with no guaranteed charger at each end. As I've repeatedly said, if that constraint doesn't affect you, EVs are wonderful.

However, the inconvenient truth is that an ICE can reliably drive 300 miles+ on a tank and be fully refuelled & back on the road within a few minutes. EVs don't come close to that.

(Although you almost had me with the playpen balls in the trunk)

 

[LCPepper]

I have this dream sometimes that the Armageddon will happen in a few decades, like the I, Robot film.

And all of use that are still alive from the old fashioned days will be able to jump in a manual and drive around the earth and be the big dogs, and those who relied on self-driving cars, will be there like... What's this stick?

 

[TallManNY]

Sad but true: there are more than 400,000 people in the world for whom $1000 is loose change, especially if that $1000 is fully refundable and they're caught up in a hypegasm like the Model 3 "launch".

You can go on pretending that Tesla have good-as-sold 400,000 cars (and secured a $400m interest free loan) right up until the point the order books open for real and we find out how many of those people are actually going to stump up the full $35k (or $42k if Musk is right about options) and how much money has to be refunded. There will be a drop-out rate (if nothing else, people will have lost jobs, made babies, blown their money on other things). Hopefully for Tesla it will be small, and easily made up from new orders. However, if the price changes, if the standard options aren't up to snuff, if other competition emerges (Apple?) or the existing doubts over whether Tesla is even capable of manufacturing that number of cars grow, then who knows? Musk is riding the tiger of Internet hype - he could get bitten.

At the price Tesla is saying and at the quality it is promising (even if it misses the quality part and options brings the car up $10k), we already know exactly how many cars Tesla will sell. Tesla will sell every single one it can make. Now I doubt they can make 400,000 of these Model 3 cars in 2017 or even in 2017 and 2018 combined. But it will sell them all. There is no doubt there. The pre-order is just an interest free loan. It won't impact the number of cars sold. That will be purely a matter of how many can be produced. If Tesla could make a million cars a year, I'd be not so sure. But I really doubt it can.
[doublepost=1471554957][/doublepost]

We disagree again... on some things. No advances or cost reductions? Untrue. From materials to manufacturing processes to design there have been significant advances in the auto industry. Nissan will soon introduce a variable compression engine. CFRP and aluminum construction reaching lower tier cars. Not to mention all the tech in cars making them more efficient. Hybrid drivetrains increasing mileage.

Tesla... Tesla, Tesla, Tesla. I like Tesla. I even like Musk. I think he's a visionary in some instances and a carnival barker in others. I also think he needs to shut the hell up and build cars. At times, he's Tesla's worst enemy. He's a hype machine. I understand why. He's gotta keep that investor money coming in until he can actually turn a profit. But he needs to find a balance between keeping investor confidence and writing checks his ass can't cash. If the first Model 3 rolls off the line before Feb 2018 I would be shocked. Those first cars will be plagued with problems just like the S and the X.
And this: "But the EV will be more dependable, perform better, and drive cheaper due to certain intrinsic properties of the technology. Remember Tesla's "ludicrous mode" is a freaking software update. It costs Tesla nothing to turn your great car into having super car performance levels."
Serious question. What makes you think EV's will be more dependable and perform better? Fact's based on current EV's don't support your assertion. I do think they could be cheaper to drive, but that depends on who's footing the bill for the battery and motor replacements. Tesla does it now, but they can't continue to do it in perpetuity... and survive.
Ludicrous mode... an aptly named double entendre if there ever was one. A software update that costs (sit down) $10K. Software... update... $10K And what do you get for the $10k? A 10% reduction in 0-60 ET's. You can't drive around in that mode so you're not getting supercar performance. $10K for a software update makes Apple's prices for memory upgrades seem like bargain. Oh, and that $10K doesn't include installation labor. Enough about Tesla. I think they're great cars, just not the holy grail some make them out to be. One more thing... I pray Elon kills the nose on the Model 3. It looks like the lip from Leela on Futurama.

"other companies will be able to make a $30k one in 2019. And then a $25k in 2021..." Not sure where you're from but car makers typically don't lower the price of cars, they raise them. Any cost reductions are typically turned into profit, not price reductions for customers.

Apologies for the length.

EV is just at a different point in its development process. ICE cars at the hard end of development where gains are small and expensive. EV is at the easy end where gains are big and come from scale and not just engineering.

Everything I've read about EVs just say that they are simpler. The ICE is amazing, but the process of producing many mini explosions and turning those explosions into rotary motion is complicated. Shifting the gears on that motion is complicated. This is much more complicated than electric motors.

The ludicrous mode is crazy. As is the $10k cost for just this minimal extra thrill. It is a true luxury item. And like a good luxury item it is almost pure profit for Tesla every time they sell that software update. They wrote the code once and they sell it for $10k as many times as a rich guy somewhere just decides he wants it.

When I'm talking about the cost coming down, I'm not meaning that the same model will actually get cheaper. But I do think new models will come out or the cheaper car manufacturers will get into the game and that is where you get the cost decreases. The Tesla Model 3 will be $35k, but Ford's car will be have to be cheaper, and the Kia model will have to be cheaper still. But I think by 2021 everyone will have an EV model of some sort and at a price appropriate with their brand. Tesla has set the ceiling which the non-luxury makers are going to have to come in under.
[doublepost=1471556611][/doublepost]From Bloomberg today:

"Starting later this month, Uber will allow customers in downtown Pittsburgh to summon self-driving cars from their phones, crossing an important milestone that no automotive or technology company has yet achieved."

Yes, there will be two safety inspectors in the car, one behind the steering wheel. But wow. I had no idea we were this close.

I'm also skeptical that Uber can get the returns it needs if it has to put its own money out to buy these cars. Capital purchases has not been part of Uber's business model to date. Their genius move was that the drivers did the capital outlay for their own cars and they provided the labor. Uber is basically shifting to a mode where they pay for everything.

 

[Col4bin]

Oh I wonder what's the point of steering assist system, then.
You could extend that kind of thinking to any "assistant" thing out there.

I agree and apparently many other companies do, too. All out of make a buck. Just hope the tech isn't half-baked once available.

 

[0388631]

If it's anything like their transmissions then... LOL

 

[Jmausmuc]

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/here...ctric-car-battery-at-the-end-of-its-life.html

"First, we learn that the cells are manufactured in Japan where there are relatively strict environmental laws, and meet the RoHS standards. They are mostly made of lithium metal oxides with zero lead, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium, PBBs or PBDEs. In fact, there no heavy metals, nor any toxic materials. Tesla says that, by law, its battery cells could be landfilled, though that's not what they actually do."

https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/here...ctric-car-battery-at-the-end-of-its-life.html

"First, we learn that the cells are manufactured in Japan where there are relatively strict environmental laws, and meet the RoHS standards. They are mostly made of lithium metal oxides with zero lead, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium, PBBs or PBDEs. In fact, there no heavy metals, nor any toxic materials. Tesla says that, by law, its battery cells could be landfilled, though that's not what they actually do."

https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program

I always knew the government had our back. As long as we fulfill their standards there is nothing to worry about.

Have you ever been to Bali? From there you can see entire plastic islands from the trash that gets in to the water floating around. And don't even take a ride in a boat, what you will see will be a huge shock considering the world governments somehow have decided to talk about carbon dioxide only and completely ignore most other environmental problems.

The thought that Teslas are good for the environment is absolutely laughable. They are less efficient than many cars today because of their insane weight. Just because they use electricity does not mean, that they are efficient. And most of the electricity used by Teslas doesn't exactly come from wind turbines. At least the energy from the supercharger supposedly does.

I am not saying that electric cars aren't the future but they way some people on here and elsewhere talk about tesla is just stupid. They cars are huge energy hogs that aren't very efficient.


Also what I have been criticizing isn't even that.
What is really annoying is that many tesla fans always have to hate on all other auto makes and show their feeling of superiority. Wishing Ford "a slow death" is not a clever way to convince other people to even consider your opinion.
And while I really like what tesla is doing its not the right choice for most people right now for many reasons including price.

And people on the internet still talk like the model 3 is already out, won't be delayed, will be just as cheap as promised and everyone else won't have any competition at all.

You fanboys are hurting the brand, not helping it.

 

[melendezest]

I don't understand the sudden "drive" for self-driving cars. I just don't.

If you don't want to drive your frakkin' car, you already have options:

1. Use public transportation (bus, taxi, train)
2. Have your spouse or offspring (licensed, of course) drive you instead.
3. Hire a chauffeur

Modern driving is far too dynamic a thing with a risk of life and limb built in.

Unless cars are riding on individual tracks, or ALL cars are autonomous (not going to happen), do you really want to put your life on the hands of a machine?

Not me.

There is just no reason whatsoever for this tech.

The work should be focused on better driver assistance/notification/alerting instead.

 

[C DM]

I don't understand the sudden "drive" for self-driving cars. I just don't.

If you don't want to drive your frakkin' car, you already have options:

1. Use public transportation (bus, taxi, train)
2. Have your spouse or offspring (licensed, of course) drive you instead.
3. Hire a chauffeur

Modern driving is far too dynamic a thing with a risk of life and limb built in.

Unless cars are riding on individual tracks, or ALL cars are autonomous (not going to happen), do you really want to put your life on the hands of a machine?

Not me.

There is just no reason whatsoever for this tech.

The work should be focused on better driver assistance/notification/alerting instead.

So far things are showing that it's a good amount safer.

The likely future has to start somewhere.

 

[melendezest]

Let's try this for starters.

Imagine TODAY that teenagers, and/or those who are 'out on the town for a good time at the weekend' know that cars will always stop for them. You walk out into the road, the car/s will stop.

Just imagine this single aspect alone and what it could lead to.

We already have it. It's called public transportation. Uber. Whatever.

Nothing is guaranteed. Not people, and certainly not machines. Period.
[doublepost=1471878110][/doublepost]

So far things are showing that it's a good amount safer.

The likely future has to start somewhere.

Hmm, no. It doesn't. Safer than what? You willing to put your child on an autonomous machine today and send him/her off to the child care center?

I'm sorry, but I'm not "starting the future" by betting my life or the life of my loved ones (or strangers, for that matter, as accidents involve more than just you).

Particularly for solving a made up problem we already have a (better) solution for: People not wanting to drive.

 

[C DM]

We already have it. It's called public transportation. Uber. Whatever.

Nothing is guaranteed. Not people, and certainly not machines. Period.
[doublepost=1471878110][/doublepost]

Hmm, no. It doesn't. Safer than what? You willing to put your child on an autonomous machine today and send him/her off to the child care center?

I'm sorry, but I'm not "starting the future" by betting my life or the life of my loved ones (or strangers, for that matter, as accidents involve more than just you).

Particularly for solving a made up problem we already have a (better) solution for: People not wanting to drive.

I'm sure plenty of people weren't willing to put anyone into airplanes in early days, for example, and yet here we are. And we certainly don't have a solution for the problem of increasing congestion on the roads and other similar/related issues.

 

[melendezest]

I'm sure plenty of people weren't willing to put anyone into airplanes in early days, for example, and yet here we are. And we certainly don't have a solution for the problem of increasing congestion on the roads and other similar/related issues.

No, no, no, no, no.

Not even close to the same thing. An airplane that carries people always was and will always be controlled by a person.

What your talking about is the equivalent of putting your newborn baby in one of those Amazon drones to be dropped off at grandma's house.

Not happening.

 

[C DM]

No, no, no, no, no.

Not even close to the same thing. An airplane that carries people always was and will always be controlled by a person.

What your talking about is the equivalent of putting your newborn baby in one of those Amazon drones to be dropped off at grandma's house.

Not happening.

From the point of view of the passengers they don't have control, that's one of the bigger aspects of why people even to this day have issues with it (of course the aspect of being up in the air is another one).

The point is that there are always people who don't like something new or are even afraid of it, but often enough it doesn't mean that it's actually bad or unreasonable or that it won't actually be something that will become commonplace and almost taken for granted at some point down the line.

 

[melendezest]

I have a deposit on the Tesla Model 3 and ready to make a final payment for my order. $35,000 is nothing when you consider the total costs and troubles of running traditional gas guzzler or hybrid vehicles. Take the Chevrolet Volt, an electric and gas hybrid, starts at $33,170. The costs of refuelling every week with gas, petrol, diesel etc add up.

Electric vehicles are a no brainer at this point especially when it comes to ongoing costs.

It is very strange how you are here, on a technology forum, talking down progressive electric high tech vehicles like Tesla and instead are talking up internal combustion engine polluting old style cars like Ford. It is very telling. When the traditional fossil fuel burning engine is removed a long with a lot of the related and unnecessary junk, there's a lot more empty space for a second front trunk and more fun.

Ford Focus
Junk

vs

Tesla Model S
Fun

​

Hahaha. It's awesome to see the 100% geek perspective.

Sorry, but given I appreciate ALL tech; the former picture is beautiful to me.

Mechanicals, and the engineering behind it, are awesome. I straddle the fence between computer geek and gearhead.

All environmental concern aside, I am amazed and impressed by the fact that we figured out how to propel a vehicle using incredibly fast, repetitive detonation. The sound, the feel... it's like loud rock music.

That said, I see that electric vehicles are better from an environmental perspective, and the future is here.

Teslas also accelerate like nothing else, so the performance is there.

But I like the roar of a V8 way more than the wheeze of an electric.

 

[smacrumon]

Hahaha. It's awesome to see the 100% geek perspective.

Sorry, but given I appreciate ALL tech; the former picture is beautiful to me.

Mechanicals, and the engineering behind it, are awesome. I straddle the fence between computer geek and gearhead.

All environmental concern aside, I am amazed and impressed by the fact that we figured out how to propel a vehicle using incredibly fast, repetitive detonation. The sound, the feel... it's like loud rock music.

That said, I see that electric vehicles are better from an environmental perspective, and the future is here.

Teslas also accelerate like nothing else, so the performance is there.

But I like the roar of a V8 way more than the wheeze of an electric.

The interesting thing is that these electric cars don't even make much of a sound apart from a tyre rolling across the road, no wheezing, at least from my experience.

 

[mripadmini]

I would never drop $35K on a car. $25-27K is more like it.