Future of Console Gaming -- DRM?

[twietee]

No offence intended, but I understood that Microsoft was incredible successful in the USA with the 360. So either their research team is utterly crap if they think this is going to fly or it paints a painful picture of those researched... let's hope the first for the sake of humanity.

 

[APlotdevice]

No offence intended, but I understood that Microsoft was incredible successful in the USA with the 360. So either their research team is utterly crap if they think this is going to fly or it paints a painful picture of those researched... let's hope the first for the sake of humanity.

The immense success of the PS1 and PS2 didn't stop Sony from making some serious missteps with the PSP and PS3. With the latter it was only after rapid price cuts, and initially running two billion into the red as a consequence, that they were able to make a recovery. I would go so far as to argue that much of the success of the 360 can probably be attributed to Sony's early blundering.

 

[0098386]

There's a joke in there, somewhere...

Okay, I'll bite: Are you glad to be a PC gamer, cause that means you have already dealt with all the DRM crap, and now you've accepted it and can enjoy your games without feeling too violated?

I'll take DRM if its a genuine way of lowering game prices, you know, passing those savings onto consumers like it is on the PC market. I've never paid £40 for a PC game, where it's the norm (40-50) on console. And that's fine.

And besides Steams DRM is just a quick "are you you?" check with no limitations at all. And there's an offline mode that lasts for months before it asks for verification.

 

[roadbloc]

Okay, I'll bite: Are you glad to be a PC gamer, cause that means you have already dealt with all the DRM crap, and now you've accepted it and can enjoy your games without feeling too violated?

Um... I can still buy games and then sell them or lend them out after I've finished with them. Unless I choose to buy them on Steam or Origin or the like... but even then, I trust Valve not to do something dumb that would annoy and alienate users, for example, disabling the great offline mode Steam has.

The Xbox 1... oh wait, the Xbox Original had its servers shut down after eight years. What is saying in maybe another 20 years that all the online services for the Xbox One, the very things it needs to run and play games, aren't shut down too?

I only accept DRM I trust. But I do also often buy games on discs that come with no DRM. On PC, at least I have a choice. And backwards compatibility. Looking at the Xbox One, I fear for the future of gaming and I hope it doesn't become a new standard for everything. Because it really really sucks.

 

[twietee]

The immense success of the PS1 and PS2 didn't stop Sony from making some serious missteps with the PSP and PS3. With the latter it was only after rapid price cuts, and initially running two billion into the red as a consequence, that they were able to make a recovery. I would go so far as to argue that much of the success of the 360 can probably be attributed to Sony's early blundering.

Well, I deserved some backlash for that, I guess. I never owned a MS or Sony console, though. So obviously never made some first hand experiences. Just saw most friends or people I went to owning PS3s, some got a XBox, but mostly Sony stuff. But that was in Europe, Germany in particular.

I use Steam, heck even Origin, because of BF3, and although it works most of the time without problems, it's incredible annyoing when I can't even play my single player campaign because of, um whatever problem occurs at a given time. Happened more than once. But I don't really mind in the end (I probably would if it wasn't for the incredible BF3 experience).
With consoles, I'm far more conservative. If I can't put in my disc and be able to play more or less immediately , it's not interesting anymore. Kinda irrational behavior, but that's how it is.

 

[Zeke D]

...Microsoft was incredible successful in the USA with the 360.

The success of the XBOX360 is directly correlated to the secondary game market. Little Johnny has an XBOX360 and grandma walks into a Gamestop and sees the "$9.99 or less" bin and gets Johnny 2 or 3 games. Johnny lends some out, etc. More used XBOX360 games out there means more market share, exposure, etc.

Microsoft (not Bill Gates, he has been out of the decision making process for a long time) took everything that's wrong with the video gaming industry (I'm looking at you, EA) and shoved it all into one console. All under the false pretense of paying developers or combatting piracy.

I know how bad developers and authors are treated. As a published author, I see my book sell for $5 and get my $1.65. $0.10 goes to the retailer and the remaining $2.75 goes to the publisher. Using this analogy, that publisher is Microsoft. ...And I have a pretty decent royalty structure. Many writers get less.

I will never own an xBone. The draconian DRM is simply unacceptable. This is the same reason I don't fly: I refuse to be treated like a criminal. The TSA, EA and Microsoft assume you are guilty until you can prove otherwise.

I'll leave you with the following paraphrase:
"Anyone who sacrifices their rights for the sake of convenience, deserves neither rights or convenience."

 

[twietee]

The success of the XBOX360 is directly correlated to the secondary game market. Little Johnny has an XBOX360 and grandma walks into a Gamestop and sees the "$9.99 or less" bin and gets Johnny 2 or 3 games. Johnny lends some out, etc. More used XBOX360 games out there means more market share, exposure, etc.
...
"Anyone who sacrifices their rights for the sake of convenience, deserves neither rights or convenience."

The consensus about the XBone is pretty clear imho..can't see anybody disputing the fact that there is about zero reason to go MS instead of Sony. That is if you aren't the biggest Halo fan on earth. Isn't the PS4 even technically superior?
Personally, I won't get any other console besides my Wii U, so I don't need to be convinced.

About your Lil' Johnny example: how is that scenario any different to a PS3?

 

[musicpenguy]

The consensus about the XBone is pretty clear imho..can't see anybody disputing the fact that there is about zero reason to go MS instead of Sony. That is if you aren't the biggest Halo fan on earth. Isn't the PS4 even technically superior?
Personally, I won't get any other console besides my Wii U, so I don't need to be convinced.

About your Lil' Johnny example: how is that scenario any different to a PS3?

The real question is how many consumers will realize this. Will it be a scenario that end users don't find out until they try to sell their X1 games on eBay or GameStop and they realize they can't?

Will a "poor" mom be tricked into buying a useless disc that has already used up its one install.

Do you think the media/press will make these thing clear and put a dent on the X1s success or will this be an instance where there will be a lot of backlash from uneducated consumers?

 

[Zeke D]

About your Lil' Johnny example: how is that scenario any different to a PS3?

When I walk into a GameStop, I see twelve feet or so of PS3 games. I Also see sixteen feet of xbox360 and a bin marked $9.99 or less stuffed with cheap 360 games. There's no real difference between be two, but I just see more Xbox than ps3 also, on the secondary market, the 360 games tend to be cheaper.

 

[gkarris]

The immense success of the PS1 and PS2 didn't stop Sony from making some serious missteps with the PSP and PS3. With the latter it was only after rapid price cuts, and initially running two billion into the red as a consequence, that they were able to make a recovery. I would go so far as to argue that much of the success of the 360 can probably be attributed to Sony's early blundering.

Actually, I have an early PS2 that doesn't read CD-R/RW's or DVD-R/RW's as Sony assumed at the time you had pirated content on them. But back in those days, people were burning song mixes onto CD's and home movies onto DVD's so you couldn't play them on a PS2.

Sony got some backlash for it so with a console update they put a different optical drive in it that reads those discs (the box has the logos of all those medias).

 

[Zeke D]

The real question is how many consumers will realize this. Will it be a scenario that end users don't find out until they try to sell their X1 games on eBay or GameStop and they realize they can't?

Will a "poor" mom be tricked into buying a useless disc that has already used up its one install.

Do you think the media/press will make these thing clear and put a dent on the X1s success or will this be an instance where there will be a lot of backlash from uneducated consumers?

I don't think the fee for playing 3rd party xbone games will affect paces like amestop. Just like you have to agree to terms when you buy DLC there, they will likely just have terms stating there could be a fee to play a used xbone game. GameStop already gives very low trade credit, I expect it will still be low with xbone games.

The press are idiots. They don't care about Microsoft's draconian DRM. Just like they don't care about Kindle DRM. Unless someone kills a bunch of people in the name of DRM, the press just doesn't care. But ten again, DRM could scare some people so te press might rollwith it. I expect try would be more likely to use the 'can hackers hack your always-on kinect and spying your children?' scare tactic.

I will NEVER own an xbone. I prefer my games DRM free. BTW, all my ebooks are also DRM free.

 

[musicpenguy]

I don't think the fee for playing 3rd party xbone games will affect paces like amestop. Just like you have to agree to terms when you buy DLC there, they will likely just have terms stating there could be a fee to play a used xbone game. GameStop already gives very low trade credit, I expect it will still be low with xbone games.

The press are idiots. They don't care about Microsoft's draconian DRM. Just like they don't care about Kindle DRM. Unless someone kills a bunch of people in the name of DRM, the press just doesn't care. But ten again, DRM could scare some people so te press might rollwith it. I expect try would be more likely to use the 'can hackers hack your always-on kinect and spying your children?' scare tactic.

I will NEVER own an xbone. I prefer my games DRM free. BTW, all my ebooks are also DRM free.

If the fee is the cost of a brand new version of the game - then you might as well throw away that disc. I believe you can sell it just once -but only to someone your friends list for XBox Live.

DRM is one thing, but for consoles DRM to me means I buy a physical version and it works on any box I put it in. When I buy a virtual version that means I am limited to the device I download it to or even better any device I log into.

Microsoft is making physical things not physical anymore and that is a rather big change I hope the general population understand before investing in XBox One games.

 

[Antares]

If the fee is the cost of a brand new version of the game - then you might as well throw away that disc. I believe you can sell it just once -but only to someone your friends list for XBox Live.

DRM is one thing, but for consoles DRM to me means I buy a physical version and it works on any box I put it in. When I buy a virtual version that means I am limited to the device I download it to or even better any device I log into.

Microsoft is making physical things not physical anymore and that is a rather big change I hope the general population understand before investing in XBox One games.

EXACTLY. If you have a physical disc, you shouldn’t need DRM with physical items. Digital downloads, I can understand certain levels of DRM and verification.

 

[musicpenguy]

EXACTLY. If you have a physical disc, you shouldn’t need DRM with physical items. Digital downloads, I can understand certain levels of DRM and verification.

Microsoft might as well discontinue the disc drive - I would have less issues with them if they just said digital only - I still wouldn't be a Microsoft customer, but I'd be more onboard with their vision.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Wondering if you guys have seen this pastebin from a MS engineer

Tells what they were trying to do with the XBox and cloud DRM

 

[Zeke D]

Wondering if you guys have seen this pastebin from a MS engineer

Tells what they were trying to do with the XBox and cloud DRM

It's the same crap apple, B&N and Amazon try to shove down my throat to justify paying me a 35% royalty. I dont get an additional royalty when someone lends out my Book. It's all bullspit. They just want more money and they are willing to screw the gamer to do so.

 

[APlotdevice]

Microsoft might as well discontinue the disc drive - I would have less issues with them if they just said digital only - I still wouldn't be a Microsoft customer, but I'd be more onboard with their vision.

Removing the disc drive would further limit the potential market. Internet speeds , are still lacking in many homes. Particularly ones in rural areas. Many also have strict bandwidth caps which might not be enough to cover even a single game.

 

[gkarris]

Wondering if you guys have seen this pastebin from a MS engineer

Tells what they were trying to do with the XBox and cloud DRM

Wow, I need to chime in on this...

he whole point of the DRM switch from disc based to cloud based is to kill disc swapping, scratched discs, bringing discs to friends house, trade-ins for s*** value with nothign going back to developers, and high game costs.

Not to mention, the game being WORTHLESS in the Classic Videogaming market - new or used, the game is not installable or playable when the server is shut down in favor of the next system. Not to mention, the console is worthless as well when the service is shut down in favor of the next one as well - okay, you can use the console as a CD/DVD/Blu-ray player...

If you want games cheaper then 59.99, you have to limit used games somehow.

Newsflash - the games are still $60...

http://www.gamestop.com/xbox-one

Everyone and their mother complains about how gamestop ******** them on their trade ins, getting 5$ for their used games. We come in trying to find a way to take money out of gamestop, and put some in developers and get you possibly cheaper games and everyone bitches at MS. Well, if you want the @#$@ing from Gamestop, go play PS4.

So you want to take money out of local brick-and-mortar stores that, at least around here, employ a lot of students going to local colleges - that's smart...

Plus, let's do the math.

My friend owned a Comic Book shop, and people would come in with boxes wanting top dollar for the items. His offer is 25 cents on the $1. They are outraged. Here's the math.

If it is worth $1, the store needs a 50% margin. Hence, they need to purchase it for 50 cents.

Next, with all that stuff, only 50% of the stuff actually sells. You can't even give away the stuff that will sit there for ever and ever.

Hence to make any sort of money, you have to pay .25 for something you sell for $1.

That $5 game trade will sell for $20....

The goal is to move to digital downloads, but Gamestop, Walmart, Target, Amazon are KIND OF ******** ENTRENCHED in the industry. They have a lot of power, and the shift has to be gradual. Long term goal is steam for consoles. [...] If you always want to stay with what you have, then keep current consoles, or a PS4. We're TRYING to move the industry forwards towards digital distribution... it'sa bumpy road

I just got a DVD at Target for $5. Digital SD download version is $10. I just got a BR of a TV series season on sale for $20. HD download version is $37. Unfortunately, there was no math done in this case...

Publishers have enourmous power. Microsoft is trying to balance between consumer delight, and publisher wishes. If we cave to far in either direction you have a non-starting product. WiiU goes too far to consumer, you have no 3rd party support to shake a stick at. PS4 is status-quo. XB1 is trying to push some things, at the expense of others. We have a vision, we'll see if it works in the coming years

Yes we will...

 

[Liquorpuki]

Not to mention, the game being WORTHLESS in the Classic Videogaming market - new or used, the game is not installable or playable when the server is shut down in favor of the next system. Not to mention, the console is worthless as well when the service is shut down in favor of the next one as well - okay, you can use the console as a CD/DVD/Blu-ray player...

That's true, though I look at other kind of digital media as being no different. If Amazon goes out of business, my whole Kindle library would be useless compared to physical books. Back when Apple used DRM on MP3's, if Apple went out of business, my songs would've been useless compared to CD's.

Newsflash - the games are still $60...

Yeah they'd have to pricedrop their digital downloads and create a value proposition for it to work. Nintendo has been pricedropping some of their digital downloads to funnel people away from brick & mortars and MS should be doing the same. I really have no clue what MS is thinking, unless they're using the savings to offset price scaling ($60 pricepoint vs the $70 pricepoint that was expected for this console generation) but who knows, they haven't said anything

So you want to take money out of local brick-and-mortar stores that, at least around here, employ a lot of students going to local colleges - that's smart...

Digital distribution has been killing brick and mortars that employ college students for the last decade. Tower Records, Blockbuster Video, Borders books, all RIP. It has more to do with the disruptive nature of internet tech than corporate mal-intent. Companies that don't embrace digital distribution end up going out of business. Companies that become first movers in digital distribution (what Apple did w/ iTunes and creating the App Store) end up owning their markets.

Plus, let's do the math.

MS is trying to kill resellers period. If they were distributing comic books, they'd be trying to run your comic book store friend out of business. But since they do videogames, they're trying to kill Gamestop. They don't care how resellers monetize.

I just got a DVD at Target for $5. Digital SD download version is $10. I just got a BR of a TV series season on sale for $20. HD download version is $37. Unfortunately, there was no math done in this case...

You're comparing different retailers though, which isn't fair because different retailers operate off different margins. Target is like Walmart and prices low because it has the luxury of being able to offset slim profit margins through high volume. Given the most basic comparison, I think we should be eventually be expecting something like what Amazon is doing with books. eBooks are cheaper because the cost of not having to carry physical inventory is passed to consumers.

 

[gkarris]

That's true, though I look at other kind of digital media as being no different. If Amazon goes out of business, my whole Kindle library would be useless compared to physical books. Back when Apple used DRM on MP3's, if Apple went out of business, my songs would've been useless compared to CD's.



Yeah they'd have to pricedrop their digital downloads and create a value proposition for it to work. Nintendo has been pricedropping some of their digital downloads to funnel people away from brick & mortars and MS should be doing the same. I really have no clue what MS is thinking, unless they're using the savings to offset price scaling ($60 pricepoint vs the $70 pricepoint that was expected for this console generation) but who knows, they haven't said anything



Digital distribution has been killing brick and mortars that employ college students for the last decade. Tower Records, Blockbuster Video, Borders books, all RIP. It has more to do with the disruptive nature of internet tech than corporate mal-intent. Companies that don't embrace digital distribution end up going out of business. Companies that become first movers in digital distribution (what Apple did w/ iTunes and creating the App Store) end up owning their markets.



MS is trying to kill resellers period. If they were distributing comic books, they'd be trying to run your comic book store friend out of business. But since they do videogames, they're trying to kill Gamestop. They don't care how resellers monetize.



You're comparing different retailers though, which isn't fair because different retailers operate off different margins. Target is like Walmart and prices low because it has the luxury of being able to offset slim profit margins through high volume. Given the most basic comparison, I think we should be eventually be expecting something like what Amazon is doing with books. eBooks are cheaper because the cost of not having to carry physical inventory is passed to consumers.

All true....

I guess I still have the 20th Century mentally - you have and own what you've earned for.

I don't know how many other countless threads I've said that the Movie Industry wants to go to a Play-Per-View model, where you no longer own the movie, and must pay a rental fee each time to watch it. The disc based one was DIVX from Circuit City.

I guess this is where at least part of the Game Industry is going for. Like in the Arcade days - 25 cents per play... until home consoles arrived...

Sony and Nintendo are not going to do this, for now at least...

 

[derbladerunner]

Hmm, just a rumor at this point. That would be quite a reversal...

Reports claim that Microsoft is to announce changes to Xbox One DRM policy tonight.

The rumour, which first appeared on WhatHiFi earlier this evening, claims that Microsoft is set to announce that it will "remove DRM restrictions on Xbox One games" and the requirement for users "to have the new Xbox 'always online'".

http://www.videogamer.com/news/rumo...on_xbox_one_drm_and_always-online_policy.html

 

[gkarris]

XBOne disc DRM removed...

Interesting article that says MS did it for the money, not the Gaming Community...

http://www.ign.com/blogs/falcon-x32/2013/06/19/microsft-and-their-lack-of-integrity

 

[Zeke D]

This only proves that 24/7 connectivity and draconian DRM were a last minute addition. Had these " features" been in from the beginning, they would nt ave been easily removed.

 

[thehustleman]

This only proves that 24/7 connectivity and draconian DRM were a last minute addition. Had these " features" been in from the beginning, they would nt ave been easily removed.

Good point

 

[LethalWolfe]

This only proves that 24/7 connectivity and draconian DRM were a last minute addition. Had these " features" been in from the beginning, they would nt ave been easily removed.

How does it prove that? The Xbox One is a computer running an modern operating system (multiple, modern operating systems). All the DRM features were just basically restricting user access based on user ID and checking in daily with an authentication server. No really cutting edge features for a computer.

Given MS's talk of having 300,000 servers to enhance the Xbox One experience I'd wager the always-connected and DRM schemes were in place a long time ago.