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zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
Also verify that molex extension cable is connected well at both sides. Sometimes the cheaper ones can be problematic. If the pins don't line up just right you'll end up pushing one out even through it appears that you have it connected securely. To make it even more confusing, I'm pretty sure that the fan on the card will operate even without molex power. So don't assume that a spinning fan means that the power is connected correctly.

Hm. Could the molex be my problem? Here is what I've got:

HDD is connected to P3 molex.
X3 is connected to P2 molex.
There is a P5 molex zip-tied up near the big fan under the power supply.
All connections seem good.

Once, I forgot to install the molex cable and the fan did spin but the computer fully booted because the X3 was not getting proper power and was therefore unseen by the G4.
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
I was mainly talking about molex extension cables. If you're using one of the G4 cables directly, probably not a problem.

Before last week, I had not flashed one of these in a couple of years. I thought that I remembered that you could do it without the molex connected--That you could flash the ROM without power to the card. But when I tried, mine wouldn't boot either. So I connected the Molex and it did boot. Or maybe that was just a fluke? My memory was incorrect about at least one other thing, so I'm not sure.

I'm willing to test it just to satisfy my own curiosity, but I'm about to head out until later tonight. If you want to wait, I'll be back around 11 or so. If you proceed, I'd suggest removing the tape from the front pins to keep it as simple as possible. I think it was once thought that this was needed, but it isn't (at least not for the X3 and R9800 Pro). I've done several of each and only disabled pins 3 & 11 on the back side.
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
Thank you. I will try taking the tape off the front side and focusing on the back. Maybe that will somehow trigger it to work. :eek:

I hope it's not a dud card or something.

EDIT: Took off the front tape, checked the molex connection and still nothing. Even did a PRAM reset.
 
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zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
I've done this before. Taping pins 3 and 11 is tricky. I would honestly recommend the resistor method as described here:
http://themacelite.wikidot.com/pins-3-and-11

It may be permanent but it guarantees that it will work.

I just removed R2 and R4...still the same results...I traced the pins' paths very carefully so I know that those two resistors, as the guide stated, was linked to them. So theoretically this should have worked, but it did not.
 
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Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
I just removed R2 and R4...still the same results...I traced the pins' paths very carefully so I know that those two resistors, as the guide stated, was linked to them. So theoretically this should have worked, but it did not.

Yes, that's correct. R2 & R4 correspond to pins 3 & 11 respectively.

Still not booting?
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
Once, I forgot to install the molex cable and the fan did spin but the computer fully booted because the X3 was not getting proper power and was therefore unseen by the G4.

Was it seen by system profiler? Or by Graphiccelerator? If it wasn't seen at all, I'm now wondering if there is a problem with the card?

I just tried a few things on my MDD. Mine did boot with the card unplugged this time (I think it might have been a tape issue last time because I did redo the tape at the same time). Just now, though, with resistors removed (no worrisome tape variables), mine booted with the power unplugged and it was recognized by both the OS and by Graphiccelerator. It wouldn't let me flash it with the power unplugged, though. I had to shut down, plug in the molex connector, and reboot to get that far.

----------

Is all of your tape accounted for? Any chance that a piece got stuck in your AGP slot?
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
Tape may have gotten stuck in there, I know it was pushing it up on the card when I was installing it. I can try cleaning that out.

I removed the resistors very carefully using the corner of a razor blade, no damage was done anywhere to the card from doing so...but could that be an issue?

Last I checked, the seller had 1 card left. I'd really hate to spend another $40 or so to have it give me the same results. That would be a total of $120 spent on this QS graphics card so far.
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
I removed the resistors very carefully using the corner of a razor blade, no damage was done anywhere to the card from doing so...but could that be an issue?

Doubtful, but it might not be a bad ides to examine where you were cutting around the tape. It would be much easier to cut through something in that location. If you don't have a good quality magnifying glass, a camera set to macro will provide you with a good file to examine on a computer.
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
I think I would check the AGP slot for tape, verify that the pins on the card are intact, and then try booting without the molex connected to see if it shows up in System Profiler or Graphiccelerator. Mine did. I forget exactly how it was listed, it was a generic description before flashing, but it was listed.

If the card does not show up this way, then I'm thinking that the card is bad.
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
I think I would check the AGP slot for tape, verify that the pins on the card are intact, and then try booting without the molex connected to see if it shows up in System Profiler or Graphiccelerator. Mine did. I forget exactly how it was listed, it was a generic description before flashing, but it was listed.

If the card does not show up this way, then I'm thinking that the card is bad.

It must be bad. I just tried this and it still wouldn't boot to OS X, so I put in another offer for the last X3 the seller has. If this card doesn't work either (assuming I get it)...then I will sell both for parts and try to get a 9800 Pro, at which point will be my last attempt.
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
It must be bad. I just tried this and it still wouldn't boot to OS X, so I put in another offer for the last X3 the seller has. If this card doesn't work either (assuming I get it)...then I will sell both for parts and try to get a 9800 Pro, at which point will be my last attempt.



It also crossed my mind this morning that the combination of the Sonnet 1.8 and the X3 might be too much for the Quicksilver PSU.

A Google search using this string firegl x3, sonnet, quicksilver, psu revealed this thread with a Russian using a dual 1.8 Sonnet upgrade. He did end up replacing his PSU, but I think the only problem that he was having was instability while using CHUD nap mode. Again, that was with a dual 1.8 upgrade. (Despite my earlier praise, ignore Japamac in that thread. He is on the wrong track here.)

I don't think that's the problem in your case, but it seemed worth mentioning. I hate to see you spend more money without being sure of what is going wrong. I'm leaning toward a bad card, but I suppose it's possible that the differences that we're experiencing in being able to boot with an unpowered card could also be explained by differences between the QS and MDD boards? I doubt it, but I don't know for sure and I won't be able to test that for at least a few weeks (my QS is on loan to a friend).

Also, check your PM.
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
It also crossed my mind this morning that the combination of the Sonnet 1.8 and the X3 might be too much for the Quicksilver PSU.

A Google search using this string firegl x3, sonnet, quicksilver, psu revealed this thread with a Russian using a dual 1.8 Sonnet upgrade. He did end up replacing his PSU, but I think the only problem that he was having was instability while using CHUD nap mode. Again, that was with a dual 1.8 upgrade. (Despite my earlier praise, ignore Japamac in that thread. He is on the wrong track here.)

I don't think that's the problem in your case, but it seemed worth mentioning. I hate to see you spend more money without being sure of what is going wrong. I'm leaning toward a bad card, but I suppose it's possible that the differences that we're experiencing in being able to boot with an unpowered card could also be explained by differences between the QS and MDD boards? I doubt it, but I don't know for sure and I won't be able to test that for at least a few weeks (my QS is on loan to a friend).

Also, check your PM.

Very interesting...but like you said, I don't think that is the underlying issue here. Or at least I hope not, because that means buying another X3 card will just lead me to the same issue.

I have put in an offer of $30 for the X3 from the same seller I bought mine from (I got mine for $40). So if that works out I'm willing to try it out, but if it doesn't then I'll just sell both X3s and buy something easier to flash.

On second thought - is it possible the card was fried?

When I first got it, I opened the PowerMac and put the card in. As soon as it made contact, the PowerMac turned on by itself - I had forgotten to unplug the power cord. When I held down the power button, it made a long beep tone and I had to pull the power cord to turn it off. The card had no molex connection.
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
On second thought - is it possible the card was fried?

When I first got it, I opened the PowerMac and put the card in. As soon as it made contact, the PowerMac turned on by itself - I had forgotten to unplug the power cord. When I held down the power button, it made a long beep tone and I had to pull the power cord to turn it off. The card had no molex connection.

Yeah, I think that's easily possible. And that would explain why it's not being seen by the OS with the molex unplugged.
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
Yeah, I think that's easily possible. And that would explain why it's not being seen by the OS with the molex unplugged.

Probably is the cause...but I figured it wasn't because the fan still came on and what not (I really am a noise when it comes to graphics cards). So I just ordered the last X3 for $30. :)

Now I'm trying to decide what to do when the new card comes in - attempt the tape method before knocking off resistors R2 and R4, or just go ahead and remove those and not worry about taping. With taping I do have a tendency to scrape the gold pins, but I'm not sure if that really affects them or not.
 
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Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
Probably is the cause...but I figured it wasn't because the fan still came on and what not (I really am a noise when it comes to graphics cards). So I just ordered the last X3 for $30. :)

Now I'm trying to decide what to do when the new card comes in - attempt the tape method before knocking off resistors R2 and R4, or just go ahead and remove those and not worry about taping. With taping I do have a tendency to scrape the gold pins, but I'm not sure if that really affects them or not.

It affects the pins if you cut all the way through them. If you break the continuity at a point above the area that it makes electrical contact with the AGP slot when the card is properly seated, then that pin is disabled. Obviously, you don't have to worry about 3 and 11. You want them to be disabled anyway. But if continuity was broken in any of the adjacent pins, there would be a problem. If you want another set of eyes (or a bunch of sets of eyes), you can post a close-up picture of that section of the card. If a trace is broken, it can likely be repaired with some electrically conductive paint. A once popular example is the repair compound that comes in a nail polish type of container for automotive rear window defoggers (you'd actually just paint across the broken parts of the metal on the window). The same stuff can be used here, but with a toothpick instead of the included applicator brush. It's not as common as it used to be, but I think NAPA still carries it. Radio Shack carries something called the Circuit Writer Pen that is specifically designed for stuff like this, but it's pretty expensive for a one time use (about $20 or so).

I'm not very good with tape either. I only used it last week because I was flashing in my G4 for use in my G5. But I cut the tape to size before sticking it on the pins. It's no less tedious doing it this way, tweezers and magnifying glass were involved, but it seems less risky than using a blade on that area of the card.

I tend to go for the resistors for two reasons: As mentioned, I'm not very good with tape. I also tend to move things around a lot and I don't want to have to worry about tape when I'm swapping cards around. It actually happened once that some tape got stuck in the AGP slot and made it appear that my motherboard had failed. In your case, with the next card, I think maybe I would start with tape in order to verify that the card is recognized before making any permanent changes. If it acts as expected, though, I guess it would be pretty tempting to just go ahead and flash it and leave it the way it is. I see your dilemma. I don't think tape is normally dangerous, though. Just be sure to shut down and unplug the computer if you have to redo it.

It really would be nice if you had access to an AGP PC to test it with before making modifications. It's nice to know whether or not you're starting with a working card. And you can get your money back if it's not good. Once you start making modifications, you can't.
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
It affects the pins if you cut all the way through them. If you break the continuity at a point above the area that it makes electrical contact with the AGP slot when the card is properly seated, then that pin is disabled. Obviously, you don't have to worry about 3 and 11. You want them to be disabled anyway. But if continuity was broken in any of the adjacent pins, there would be a problem. If you want another set of eyes (or a bunch of sets of eyes), you can post a close-up picture of that section of the card. If a trace is broken, it can likely be repaired with some electrically conductive paint. A once popular example is the repair compound that comes in a nail polish type of container for automotive rear window defoggers (you'd actually just paint across the broken parts of the metal on the window). The same stuff can be used here, but with a toothpick instead of the included applicator brush. It's not as common as it used to be, but I think NAPA still carries it. Radio Shack carries something called the Circuit Writer Pen that is specifically designed for stuff like this, but it's pretty expensive for a one time use (about $20 or so).

I'm not very good with tape either. I only used it last week because I was flashing in my G4 for use in my G5. But I cut the tape to size before sticking it on the pins. It's no less tedious doing it this way, tweezers and magnifying glass were involved, but it seems less risky than using a blade on that area of the card.

I tend to go for the resistors for two reasons: As mentioned, I'm not very good with tape. I also tend to move things around a lot and I don't want to have to worry about tape when I'm swapping cards around. It actually happened once that some tape got stuck in the AGP slot and made it appear that my motherboard had failed. In your case, with the next card, I think maybe I would start with tape in order to verify that the card is recognized before making any permanent changes. If it acts as expected, though, I guess it would be pretty tempting to just go ahead and flash it and leave it the way it is. I see your dilemma. I don't think tape is normally dangerous, though. Just be sure to shut down and unplug the computer if you have to redo it.

It really would be nice if you had access to an AGP PC to test it with before making modifications. It's nice to know whether or not you're starting with a working card. And you can get your money back if it's not good. Once you start making modifications, you can't.

Thank you for this response. I will try the taping method first to be safe and then remove the resistors if everything checks out.

Now to wait on it to come in, :)
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
New card came in today. I taped pins 3 and 11 on the back, plugged it into the molex and put it in the AGP slot, plugged in the PMG4 and...same results. No booting to OS X.

Maybe, for some reason, the X3 isn't compatible with the QS? :(
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
New card came in today. I taped pins 3 and 11 on the back, plugged it into the molex and put it in the AGP slot, plugged in the PMG4 and...same results. No booting to OS X.

Maybe, for some reason, the X3 isn't compatible with the QS? :(

Damn, I'm really sorry. I had one running in a Quicksilver for months without any problems using the OEM PSU. It was flashed in an MDD, but I don't know why that would make a difference.

Maybe try it off that P5 Molex so it's not connected with your drive?
 

zackkmac

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jul 7, 2008
880
129
Denver
Maybe try it off that P5 Molex so it's not connected with your drive?

I just tried connecting P5 to my drive and then P3 to the card and nothing.

Really would like to know what is going on with these cards...I'm assuming they work but for whatever reason my QS does not like them being there.

Should I try to run the stock CPU?
 
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