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flat five

macrumors 603
Feb 6, 2007
5,580
2,657
newyorkcity
Actually, I think we feel the same way about Kelly Johnson and his products. Our difference is probably about the degree of influence esthetics played in his design work. I think he had a clear sense of what looked good to him and he applied that in his work, but I think it had limited impact in the performance-driven environment.

yeah, and we have different background experiences as well.

for me, it's basically craftsman by heart, designer by passion, and engineer out of necessity.

and you're more engineer through and through (as i see it at least)

idk, i work with engineers often and we can always talk similar languages.. i like those guys.. just couldn't work in an office like that though :)
 

Rich.Cohen

macrumors regular
Oct 28, 2013
193
3
Washington DC
for me, it's basically craftsman by heart, designer by passion, and engineer out of necessity.

and you're more engineer through and through (as i see it at least)

just couldn't work in an office like that though :)

There is a lot of overlap between craftsman and engineer. I work with software and the craftsman component is probably larger than the engineer. However, my formal training is engineering that's my outlook as well. I call myself a software engineer sometimes. I hope one day that will be accurate. To me one of the key indicators of an engineer at work is a blueprint. It's amazing how seldom I see the equivalent in software. Heck, more than half the time the only design I have is in my head.

I once interviewed for a job at Boeing in Wichita. Once I saw the "bull pen" I lost all interest in that job.

One of my many favorite authors, Tom Demaro wrote an excellent book titled Peopleware. In it he reports evidence that there is a high correlation between the best performing programmers and their ability to shut out noise and turn off the telephone. He can't say which is the cause and which is the effect. He also has some very negative things to say about the "furniture police" who force us (well, not me anymore) into cubicles. I think that Scott Adams may have read that book. :)
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
As far as visual inspiration, I immediately felt when looking at the Mac Pro up close that the film 2001: A Space Odyssey was a big inspiration. Yes, there's an obvious resemblance with the mirror-black monoliths. But, the general design aesthetic of an organic, round shape combined with repeating geometric structures really resonated with memories of Kubrick's film, and more broadly with 1970s elegant technological futurism.

There are elements of Kubrick in everything aerospace. He influenced broadly and the analogy is valid here - thought it doesnt explain more than the relationship to turbojet or ramjet engines.

----------

yeah, and we have different background experiences as well.

for me, it's basically craftsman by heart, designer by passion, and engineer out of necessity.

and you're more engineer through and through (as i see it at least)

idk, i work with engineers often and we can always talk similar languages.. i like those guys.. just couldn't work in an office like that though :)

I was more inclined to suggest that engineering was specified at readily available products at the high end spec. In addition to which the engineers thought long and hard about buffering and caching rather than raw numbers.

An optimized system from 2002 will pummel a 2012 system due to carefully selected timing and data exchange. There are more gains to be had by getting the timing right than purely cranking the clock to a level where 80% of the cycles are wait states.

----------

Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away
If you can use some exotic booze
There's a bar in far Bombay
Come on and fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away

Baha ... I remember singing that once when the plane I was in blew its left engine as it left the runway. That was an interesting day in Hawaii.
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
As a recent visitor to this forum I find the members in this thread to be deeply thoughtful and engaging. I can only assume this is the way Mac Rumours rolls. It's a pretty useful discussion.
 

flat five

macrumors 603
Feb 6, 2007
5,580
2,657
newyorkcity
As a recent visitor to this forum I find the members in this thread to be deeply thoughtful and engaging. I can only assume this is the way Mac Rumours rolls. It's a pretty useful discussion.

ha.. nah. macrumors doesn't really roll like that.. it's the most un-united group of people i've come across on the interwebs :)
everybody fights everybody and ideas spread very slowly if at all..

software forums are usually the places for more engaging computer conversations.. just don't start talking about hardware at those places..

(imo)
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
Ports generally want to be close to the motherboard; these are placed on the same side of the machine as the motherboard. There's nothing especially contrived about that.

Sure, but they still have a space claim, as well as many other subassemblies.

There's a lot that's not going to be really answerable until the nMP's start to be delivered and an independent does a tear-down.

More generally... are you suggesting they should have used a four-sided heat sink despite only having three items that needed to be attached to it, in order to maintain a more conventional shape? That's the opposite of form follows function.

Not really. My point is that most of the stuff that's being stuffed into the box are rectalinear objects, so "squares in squares" makes for a generally easier space claim effort than with 'squares in circles' or 'squares with triangles'. Its a question of how much of a packaging complexity headache do you really want, when there's not any particularly profound reason for the external case to be 6.6" in diameter versus 6.75" or 7.0", etc.

Even if we want to point to the deep draw metal case, there's no major engineering design constraint that says that 6.6" is golden and that 10" (or more) is impossible...or even hard.

Placing the GPU boards parallel to or perpendicular to the motherboard would have prevented the use of a unified heat sink,

So what? Just what is the specific engineering justification of a 'unified heat sink'? Don't be particularly surprised if the real reason is merely to reduce the product's parts count for less expensive manufacturing. And sure, that's a good thing, but the touch labor in comparison to Intel CPUs that cost $1000 each is utterly insignificant.

and the latter approach would have created considerable dead space within the machine.

Again, so what? Sure, smaller is generically nicer, but given the shrink from the cheese grater, they could have easily been 25% larger and it still would have been a 'Wow its small' customer reaction.

Plus, given that we already have some indicators that the nMP's performance is constrained (IIRC, something with the parallelism in the GPUs? The thread was elsewhere on MacRumors), it sounds to me that there's either a Power Supply constraint and/or a Thermal Constraint present within this design. Once again, the question will come back to what their trade-off decisions were...personally, I don't like the engineering implications of a hard constraint on future capability growth --> it invariably becomes a cost driver.

None of these other devices have the requirements that lead Apple to the design of the new Mac Pro, namely exactly three large boards sporting components requiring serious cooling...

Sure and that would be all to write about ... if there were utterly no other components that also had space claims which needed to be also packaged.


Insisting that Apple should have enforced ...

Sorry, not at all; I apoologize for creating that impression.

My point is that other than the history of the Cube fiasco, there's no precidence for Apple to have embarked on a 'cylinder' language.

If you look at their other products, they are frequently reminicient of the old Cube, but the wrinkle is that they've all avoided being _regular_ cubes (eg, all three dimensions the same).

FWIW, I find the "Tower Cubes" of the Airport to be very interesting in particular, as they do hint that there probably was another nMP design under consideration in this general form ... my guess would be that it included a few 2.5" and/or 3.5" bays in it, adding to the height. I'd not be surprised to hear this come out eventually in a biography in 5-10 years.

One might want to consider taking an 'outside view' approach here — instead of trying to analyze all of the specifics of this product, look at what has occurred in previous similar cases...

Of course. The problem is that the past precident of the last time that Apple sold a 'small form factor' performance workstation ... was the Cube. Maybe the market has changed enough to be different this time; time will tell.

In what fraction of cases do critics end up being right, and in what fraction is Apple ultimately vindicated?

Think outside of the box: given their current corporate divisions' performance, to what degree does Apple now have the luxury of not really having to care if they just constrained MP sales by functionaly abandoning segments such as the SMB 'independent creative' who needs MacPro performance but who lacks the business to rationally pay for a Fibre Channel Server down the hall?


Actually not if have to cool both the inside and outside of the triangle. the triangle will fit entirely in the circumference of the circular fan. ( i.e. the fan's circle is not bounded by the triangle. It is bound by the case that encloses the triangle. )

The same is true for any other geometry pairs too.

Not to mention that the trapezoid power supply, I/O board, and RAM DIMMs (all not members of the triangle) also need cooling.

And as I said above, we're ultimately going to have to wait for an independent third party teardown to really gain insight on just how profound or necessary this "unified triangle" feature really was - or wasn't.


total smoke that not even present at all in this design.

Correct: there's not been much "CUBE!" angst manifested, probably because it isn't cube shaped, plus there's been much more emphasis to pack in performance (particularly GPU) so that despite its inherent trade-off limitations, it is less likely that computational "horsepower" will be a shortcoming...this was a factor with the old Cube in that its hardware specfiics failed to be a progressional step up from the its PowerMac counterpart: what killed the Cube was in no small part that Apple was asking its poweruser-centric customers to pay MORE to get LESS. That's a backwards 'Value' paradigm, so it is no real mystery as to why the Cube failed in the marketplace.

Apple has doesn't have to dissipate anywhere near this amount of thermals in the rest of their portfolio either.

Is that statement with, or without, any consideration of the legacy 2012 Mac Pro?

There is a function here. It is to get rid of the heat in the geometric shape. In this case, the cylinder shape is driven by the fan.

A system is going to have to get rid of its waste heat regardless of what geometric shape it happens to be.

And there's really many design choices and options which could have been employed, even if one has a specific objective of a large diameter fan: take a look at the ducting work in a lot of big flat laptops for an illustration.

The only thing that would drive it back toward a rectangle would be injecting more rectangular components and need to break down into more thermal zones.

Not really: that's really more of a question of to what degree are they motivated to expend resources to minimize the system's overall volume.

Insofar as the nMP's thermal package, I fully expect that the eventual teardowns are going to reveal multiple thermal sensors and as such, "logical" thermal zones. From there, the simplest engineering approach for a single speed fan control logic would be to base its speed simply on what the hottest 'zone' needs...just a straightforward 'MAX(Zones A,B,C,D) --> table' line of code.

No one has ever complained about having their electronics being exposed to excessive cooling, and since its a desktop, the only reason to try to limit fan velocity really isn't power management, but noise signature .. and that's really already been addressed by maximizing the fan diameter - - any additional potential complexity won't likely result in a meaningfully significant benefit to justify itself.


-hh
 

Rich.Cohen

macrumors regular
Oct 28, 2013
193
3
Washington DC
And as I said above, we're ultimately going to have to wait for an independent third party teardown to really gain insight on just how profound or necessary this "unified triangle" feature really was - or wasn't.

I agree that we will learn more when good engineers evaluate the design in detail. It could turn out that there is real merit in these choices, but maybe not.

One small point. Of all the regular shapes, the triangle provides the greatest area between it and the smallest enclosing circle. This isn't much because nothing forced Apple to make case just larger than the core, but it may have been a consideration.
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
ha.. nah. macrumors doesn't really roll like that.. it's the most un-united group of people i've come across on the interwebs :)
everybody fights everybody and ideas spread very slowly if at all..

software forums are usually the places for more engaging computer conversations.. just don't start talking about hardware at those places..

(imo)

Undisciplined Disciplined.

But the cross section is pretty amazing.
 

Gav Mack

macrumors 68020
Jun 15, 2008
2,193
22
Sagittarius A*
yeah. it's good. maybe too many americans.
50-50 split works better.


Lol. We're all Homo sapiens - despite some acting like Neanderthals sometimes!

But we all like our Mac Pro's. Some prefer a different size shape or colour though but I prefer to wait and see what they are like in real life before making a judgment :D
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
yeah. it's good. maybe too many americans.
50-50 split works better.

So are we setting up an offline / online think tank ?

Let's do a proposal for Apple in several development phases starting with vague concept and then progressing to rational forms.

I presume there are several industrial design pages featuring apple concepts. But I don't specifically know if one is dedicated to apple dream products. Perhaps have competing crews and a vote contest.
 

flat five

macrumors 603
Feb 6, 2007
5,580
2,657
newyorkcity
So are we setting up an offline / online think tank ?

Let's do a proposal for Apple in several development phases starting with vague concept and then progressing to rational forms.

I presume there are several industrial design pages featuring apple concepts. But I don't specifically know if one is dedicated to apple dream products. Perhaps have competing crews and a vote contest.

haha.. not for me.. computers are too small scale.. it's just that when somebody else's skills are evident in a computer's design, i can definitely appreciate it.

and anyway, my 'dream' apple products would be more along the lines of UI & I/O devices.. for the most part, computers are way way faster than we can communicate with them.. narrowing that gap will be the next big leap in personal communicating.. nothing to do with geekbench results etc.
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
haha.. not for me.. computers are too small scale.. it's just that when somebody else's skills are evident in a computer's design, i can definitely appreciate it.

and anyway, my 'dream' apple products would be more along the lines of UI & I/O devices.. for the most part, computers are way way faster than we can communicate with them.. narrowing that gap will be the next big leap in personal communicating.. nothing to do with geekbench results etc.

Apple's media streaming and TV interface needs some help.
 

chrisjaren

macrumors newbie
Dec 27, 2013
1
0
I foresee that some opportunity in the following year we will see the arrival of a "Mac Pro Server" item that uses the same skeleton and general outline of the new Mac Pro yet experiences noteworthy inward plan changes to trade the double high controlled representation cards with a second full-power CPU for u...
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
I foresee that some opportunity in the following year we will see the arrival of a "Mac Pro Server" item that uses the same skeleton and general outline of the new Mac Pro yet experiences noteworthy inward plan changes to trade the double high controlled representation cards with a second full-power CPU for u...

If anything, Apple needs to answer the question about a "file server in every home" to go with the handful of computers, tablets, televisions, streaming speakers and phones.

By answering this question. We have to see which side of the net the ball falls on with respect to FLAC and MKV.

As Sony flew in the face of public thinking, it took a large penalty while Panasonic gave permission in 2013 with MKV firmware updates. LG and Samsung never wasted a second adopting popular standards.

The line is drawn.
 

MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
CTp5Y7uU8AEtaT1.jpg:large
 

h9826790

macrumors P6
Apr 3, 2014
16,614
8,546
Hong Kong
Um... I am actually working in the aviation industry. The SR-71 still the fastest aircraft now (with pilot, within atmosphere, non-testing aircraft..., etc). However, the nMP... is never the top model in the computer world, even when it was just released. I really can't see how they are related. I think there are plenty of black tube on the world, and they also have zero relationship to the SR-71.

The only relationship between them may be the lack of upgradability :p
 
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MiJuConcept

macrumors regular
Original poster
Nov 25, 2013
106
5
Australia
Um... I am actually working in the aviation industry. The SR-71 still the fastest aircraft now (with pilot, within atmosphere, non-testing aircraft..., etc). However, the nMP... is never the top model in the computer world, even when it was just released. I really can't see how they are related. I think there are plenty of black tube on the world, and they also have zero relationship to the SR-71.

The only relationship between them may be the lack of upgradability :p

The study of past engineering is relevant to all future design.
 
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