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sblasl

macrumors 6502a
Apr 25, 2004
844
0
Heber Springs, AR
Hey Mods,

Can this be made a "Sticky"? It should be mandatory reading before any post is made.

You've answered your own question.

No, he's not. It's called being a sensible and practical consumer. If you have no evidence whatsoever as to future features, you can't reasonably apply your personal expectations to a device. You must purchase it with the assumption that it will never do anything worthwhile that it doesn't right out of the box.

You have no way of knowing what or how much will be added in the future or whether it will be the least bit interesting, useful, or innovative. They very well could have been referring solely to the WiFi Music Store. Maybe there's no more to come after that at all--there's nothing dispositive to the contrary. Obviously, that's unlikely, but if you bought it assuming they would add things you think are essential, you're rather foolish.

Only because you created runaway expectations from a device, got in a large group of other over-excited Internet people, and created an iPhone in your collective heads that doesn't reflect reality. You blame all the hype, but you're forgetting that it's people like you who drove the hype in the first place.


Because you can't get from the specified features to "open platform" without a number of serious leaps of logic and major assumptions.

AppleTV runs OS X; it is not an open platform. The new iPods run OS X. They're not an open platform. Multitasking doesn't get you anywhere--it just specifies that you can switch seamless between applications on the phone. You can play music while checking the weather or texting. "Desktop class applications" simply refers to the quality of what's installed--YouTube and Safari are quite comprehensive, and Google Maps is full-featured. I won't lump Mail in this category because it sucks. It doesn't say "desktop application support" or anything at all about development.

No, you just refuse to listen because you hear what you want to hear. You can't take away a feature that never existed. There are any number of practical considerations to consider for why the platform is closed. The software is clearly unfinished, and you don't write APIs for a moving target. The software is also heavily based on some Leopard technologies, and Leopard was far from finished throughout the entire development process. You can go from there to stability issues and memory management (the device can't handle large numbers of open applications, and many of the ones written caused a general slowdown and unresponsiveness). Then there are business concerns--an unlimited data plan coupled with VOIP would degrade service quality of the data network, and would simultaneously lower demand for voice services.

It's obvious that third-party software will be coming officially to the iPhone at some point, but it was always foolhardy to believe that would be before the release of Leopard. Did you ever stop to consider the "future updates" might not be immediate?


I don't see how. The iPhone is easy to use. It also has a great deal more sophistication in "smart" applications. If it said something about "number of applications" or development in any way, shape, or form, you might have a position that makes more sense.

You're linking "smart" with "open"--a clear fallacy. The "smartness" of the phone refers to the level of its functions; Google Maps is a clear example of this. It automatically locates points of interest and provides immediate access to directions and to call from the screen. Smart applications and ease of use are highly correlated, since often similar functions on Windows Mobile are quite complex.
 

DeathChill

macrumors 68000
Jul 15, 2005
1,663
90
Never mind. On second thought, no matter what I write it will be twisted, misinterpreted and slammed. This debate will be between the individuals who love Apple and expect more from them and those who drank too much kool-aid and will defend Apple at every turn, even if it means expecting less and getting just that, less. Besides, it just seems to fan the flames.

I cannot agree more. I am still in shock about how many people find the lack of video recording and MMS acceptable in this day and age. Even worse is that they defend it and then post ridiculous work around's and think that it is acceptable.

Lord knows we'd mock Microsoft endlessly if they pulled the same stunt.
 

123

macrumors 6502a
Mar 3, 2002
757
760
You have no way of knowing what or how much will be added in the future or whether it will be the least bit interesting, useful, or innovative.
You are right, but only because Jobs is a notorious liar. It was foolish to expect the iPhone to be "smart" just because he said so.

AppleTV runs OS X; it is not an open platform. The new iPods run OS X. They're not an open platform.
If it's not an open platform, then OS X is not a feature either. Why would anyone care? For all I know it could run Commodore64 Basic, as long as the phone works as shown in the videos... The problem is they advertised the completeness of the phone's OS X underpinnings, and especially that it comes with OS X's frameworks built right in. People can expect some kind of benefit from that, i.e. easy+powerful 3rd party app development. Otherwise those wouldn't be features.

YouTube and Safari are quite comprehensive,
No they're not. YouTube is minimalistic. OK, who cares... if at least all the movies were there. But they're not. And as far as Safari is concerned: YouTube.app wouldn't even be necessary if Safari were a "Desktop class application". But it isn't.

The software is also heavily based on some Leopard technologies, and Leopard was far from finished throughout the entire development process.
Yeah right, because it is so heavily based on "Leopard technologies", all these iPhone developers can easily compile their apps on Linux and Tiger using the 10.4 sdk... Besides, "Leopard technologies" are well known. Or how do you think are we preparing our software for 10.5?

You can go from there to stability issues and memory management (the device can't handle large numbers of open applications, and many of the ones written caused a general slowdown and unresponsiveness)
Many? Which ones? Besides, you can always only allow single task apps (like the vast majority of current 3rd party apps).

You're linking "smart" with "open"--a clear fallacy. The "smartness" of the phone refers to the level of its functions; Google Maps [...] automatically locates [...]
No it doesn't. The term "smart" in relation to phones is a well established one. It's not up to Mr. Jobs to reinvent it, or to you, for that matter.

Smart applications and ease of use are highly correlated
Blasphemy! Go have a look at that chart Jobs presented. His point is clearly that this is not the case and that the iPhone is in fact the first phone that (supposedly) manages to do both!
 

sparkpoint11

macrumors newbie
Oct 5, 2007
3
0
To all the Apple Apologists...

Originally Posted by sblasl
Apple nor Steve Jobs ever marketed, called, or alluded to the iPhone as a SmartPhone. When Jobs made the announcement introducing the iPhone he questioned why SmartPhones were called "Smart" Phones.
Anyone who thinks that the iPhone is a SmartPhone or a PDA is wishful thinking on their part.

Originally Posted by aristobrat
With the iPhone pretty much "fully demonstrated" for you before it went out sale, how exactly did you "expect more"?


No, he's not. It's called being a sensible and practical consumer. If you have no evidence whatsoever as to future features, you can't reasonably apply your personal expectations to a device. You must purchase it with the assumption that it will never do anything worthwhile that it doesn't right out of the box. You have no way of knowing what or how much will be added in the future or whether it will be the least bit interesting, useful, or innovative. They very well could have been referring solely to the WiFi Music Store. Maybe there's no more to come after that at all--there's nothing dispositive to the contrary. Obviously, that's unlikely, but if you bought it assuming they would add things you think are essential, you're rather foolish.

Only because you created runaway expectations from a device, got in a large group of other over-excited Internet people, and created an iPhone in your collective heads that doesn't reflect reality. You blame all the hype, but you're forgetting that it's people like you who drove the hype in the first place.

Originally Posted by megfilmworks
Another sensible post by Matticus!

Originally Posted by sblasl
Can this [above post by Mattisuc008] be made a "Sticky"? It should be mandatory reading before any post is made.


Woah.. watch out there fellow Mac friends, the Kool-Aid Clan© is circling the wagons around their leader 'Matticus'!
Asking an admin to make an opinion post a Sticky?

I would like to point out some moments/quotes from the initial iPhone keynote presentation. this "timeline" of events
ar the presentation is NOT my response, so please do not respond to it directly without reading my comments below...

[Keynote starts]
[shows original mac, ipod as game-changing product innovations...]

SJ "we have a new one today"
SJ "revolutionary mobile phone"
SJ "breakthrough internet communications device"
SJ "reinventing the phone"

[shows pictures of 4 smartphones: Q, Blackberry, Treo 650, E62]
SJ "this thing is Super Smart... ...way smarter than ANY mobile device has ever been"

[shows picture of 4 smartphone's "fixed" keyboards and buttons]
SJ describes problems with fixed keyboards..

[shows picture of smartphone's stylus]
SJ "no one wants a stylus"

[The Motorola Q on the screen actually morphs into the iphone, contrasting the lack of keyboard and fixed button]
[shows soft keyboard on iphone...]
SJ "faster to type on than the little plastic keyboards on the other phones"

[shows iPhone side angle]
"thinner than ANY smartphone out there.. thinner than the Q .. thinner than the blackjack"

[shows more iphone pics]
SJ "iPhone is 5 years ahead ...of any phone on the market"

SJ "Runs OS X"
SJ "Multi-tasking"
SJ "OSX means not crippled phone applications... Desktop class applications"

[SJ Shows off iPhone apps like mail, calendar, youtube, Google maps, Safari web browser, stock and weather widgets...]
SJ touts benefits of touch interface and not fixed button as a means to allow new features/applications to be added to the Iphone in the future.
SJ touts ability to add features and applications through Itunes interface....

Nearly everything Steve Jobs said and displayed during the iPhone keynote IMPLIED that the iPhone was supposed to be "Way Smarter" and more advanced than ANY existing smartphone on the market. Actually, "Five years ahead of everything else on the market", specifically showing competitors SMARTPHONES over and over again throughout the presentation. He continually alluded to the fact the iPhone was running OSX "the best software platform ever" and that the dynamic software interface and easy iTunes update would allow more applications to be produced in the future for the device. In fact, SJ and Apple made it clear that they viewed this very capability as a major part of the "revolutionary" aspect of the device --- allowing the phone's interface to continually adapt to new software ideas.

I am not going to argue the merits of whether SJ had to actually say in precise words "The iPhone is a smartphone". On that same note, I'm not going to argue about whether SJ saying "Iphone runs the best software platform ever" or "is smarter than anything on the market"

The fact is he created that perception in a large percentage of people who first saw the iphone at the keynote. That feeling of being mislead about the "smartphone capabilities" (AKA third-party apps) coupled with the glaring lack of a few fundamental features in the iPhone is what is leading to all of the backlash going on.

People were marketed to and sold on a "revolutionary mobile phone and breakthrough internet communications device that is 5 years ahead of anything on the market". When you make claims like that, and yet the device doesn't have a to-do list, MMS, Instant Messenging, customizable interface, RSS reader, voice dialing, voice memos, simple games, video recording, outlook synching, enterprise wifi support, exchange/enterprise email support, bluetooth A2DP, etc, can you really blame people for being disappointed that apple blocks 3rd party applications when they left so much out?

On the other point, Apple demonstrating most or all of the launch features of the iPhone on their website did not lead anyone to believe that those videos represented the only features they would ever see on the iPhone.
Apple itself, obviously, never even had this intention in mind, as they have continually indicated that new features (without an instruction video at launch) were going to be added to the iPhone in regular intervals through the iTunes update service. Itunes Wi-fi store is one of them.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
On second thought, no matter what I write it will be twisted, misinterpreted and slammed.
An excellent propaganda piece, but there has been no twisting or misinterpretation. The iPhone didn't unfold as you hoped. We get it. Your hopes are not Apple's responsibility. The need to assign blame for your own self-caused disappointment is irrational.
This debate will be between the individuals who love Apple and expect more from them and those who drank too much kool-aid and will defend Apple at every turn, even if it means expecting less and getting just that, less.
False dichotomy. It's interesting that you put "drinking too much kool-aid" (a fairly tired and ridiculous metaphor) automatically on the opposite side of your own opinions, when the objective person would conclude that people "who love Apple and expect more" are the ones with perception issues.

It's also amusing to me that someone opposed to your own irrational expectations of a product automatically gets lumped into "defending Apple at every turn." Isn't it obvious that this whole disagreement has nothing to do with Apple at all? It has to do with baseless expectations and a fantasized notion of what "should be" or how a company is "breaking the law" by pulling the strings to your heart. It's a search for blame and an attempted defense for a sense of entitlement and outrage that people simply can't resist buying an Apple product that clearly did not meet their needs or desires.

The simple fact is that there are other products and other companies out there. I for one am tired of being called an apologist for pointing out that consumers should buy the product that meets their needs, and sometimes that means not buying from Apple.
If it's not an open platform, then OS X is not a feature either. Why would anyone care?
Welcome to the world of marketing. People care because it's an extension of a brand and an indication that tighter interoperability with desktop systems is a fundamental. It has more to do with an Apple "ecosystem" than anything else. You know this is the case because of the other closed systems introduced. Every peripheral product to the Mac ever released has been a closed component. Even when further third party development comes to the iPhone, it won't be a free-for-all.
People can expect some kind of benefit from that, i.e. easy+powerful 3rd party app development.
Where's the missing step? How do you get to "open platform" from stripped down OS X functions?
That feeling of being mislead about the "smartphone capabilities" (AKA third-party apps)
Third party applications are not central to what constitutes a "smart" phone. You've either misled yourself or been misled by someone else about the definition of "smart phone." The industry analysis cited in a recent case was this: "A large-screen, data-centric, handheld device designed to offer complete phone functions whilst simultaneously functioning as a personal digital assistant (PDA)." This definition is credited to one of the large firms. Wikipedia doesn't even mention an "open platform" anywhere in the defining characteristics. Even a simple look at the name reveals that it's advanced function, not openness. Regular phones often allow third-party applications as well--development openness is at best a tangential issue.
Yeah right, because it is so heavily based on "Leopard technologies", all these iPhone developers can easily compile their apps on Linux and Tiger using the 10.4 sdk
Again, you're just missing the boat. You don't release an API with unfinished controls and unknown future performance. You can write an application on anything you like and get it working, but that's not the level of functionality expected for professional development. Turn it around and you'd just be complaining about how the iPhone screwed over developers by completing changing all system calls and releasing an incompatible set of frameworks, making everyone start from scratch.
... Besides, "Leopard technologies" are well known. Or how do you think are we preparing our software for 10.5?
They're well known now, more than a year after the groundwork for the iPhone would have been laid. Would you write production software based on the WWDC 2006 preview of Leopard?
No it doesn't. The term "smart" in relation to phones is a well established one. It's not up to Mr. Jobs to reinvent it, or to you, for that matter.
The only people reinventing anything are the ones that think "smart" has anything to do with "open." Smartphones are available with a WinCE SDK which allows for easy development. Take the SDK away, and they're still "smart" phones. It has never referred to openness to third party development. Correlation does not imply causation. It's a shame people aren't better versed in logic.
 

Stella

macrumors G3
Apr 21, 2003
8,838
6,341
Canada
Apart from the UI being a few years ahead ( I wouldn't say 5 years ).. in what way is the iPhone 5 years ahead of the competition?

SJ claimed ( I'm taking the quote from above)
"SJ "Runs OS X"
SJ "Multi-tasking"
SJ "OSX means not crippled phone applications... Desktop class applications""

Reality:
* iPhone is not the first multi-tasking phone OS.
* So what if it runs OSX - running OSX does not automatically mean its 'better'.
* Not Crippled Apps - so why can't you "Delete All" in email app? For example.
* Why doesn't Safari support flash?
* Why doesn't it support video recording?
* Why no VOIP?
* The list goes on and on....


Hardly '5 years ahead of the competition'.

Anyone who believes this requires their head examined and a reality check.
 

3282872

macrumors 6502a
Dec 11, 2006
821
0
Apart from the UI being a few years ahead ( I wouldn't say 5 years ).. in what way is the iPhone 5 years ahead of the competition?

SJ claimed ( I'm taking the quote from above)
"SJ "Runs OS X"
SJ "Multi-tasking"
SJ "OSX means not crippled phone applications... Desktop class applications""

Reality:
* iPhone is not the first multi-tasking phone OS.
* So what if it runs OSX - running OSX does not automatically mean its 'better'.
* Not Crippled Apps - so why can't you "Delete All" in email app? For example.
* Why doesn't Safari support flash?
* Why doesn't it support video recording?
* Why no VOIP?
* The list goes on and on....


Hardly '5 years ahead of the competition'.

Anyone who believes this requires their head examined and a reality check.

- No GPS (something the Motorola RAZR has, but not the ex-$599 iPhone)
- No MMS
- No Voice Dialing
- OS X that has been actively crippled to disallow third party apps (something Jobs touted before the iPhone release as "revolutionary" theennnn, changed his mind)
- No IM
- No manual iTunes syncing
and on and on

but wait, because Jobs has been vague about the device, we shouldn't be so quick to judge. Oh, and it has the cool multi-touch thing, that makes it all better.

The fact is he created that perception in a large percentage of people who first saw the iphone at the keynote. That feeling of being mislead about the "smartphone capabilities" (AKA third-party apps) coupled with the glaring lack of a few fundamental features in the iPhone is what is leading to all of the backlash going on.

Careful, they'll stone you for that heresy. From their point of view, if it wasn't CLEARLY stated in blood and your first born wasn't sacrificed then our expectations are "ridiculous" as we shouldn't expect a device like the iPhone to run third party applications like Palm devices or other "similar" devices (I'll be exiled for using "smartphone").

I have an iPhone, I like it, I want to love it, but Apple's approach in actively holding back its potential is perplexing. It has been stated time and time again by Jobs in early press releases that "OSX [on the iPhone] means not crippled phone applications... Desktop class applications". So we're "disillusioned" to believe that the iPhone can run third party applications or that we were wrong to expect it? Pure crap. Further, calling those who expect more from a company they believe it "children" and names isn't helping, but weakening certain arguments. Having a tone of superiority simply results in emotional discourse instead of logical debate, and the facts clearly state that Apple has created a device they are holding back from acting in its full capacity. Whether we had imaginary expectations is irrelevant, developers have already proven what Steve Jobs has stated, the iPhone can "do more". So why cripple it and/or brick it? Forget our expectations, those people are still stuck on the "b" aspect of our equation. We're already on "c", why are they doing it?

...but pssst, don't tell Matticus this. ;)
 

dustywaffles

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
13
0
You've answered your own question.

No, he's not. It's called being a sensible and practical consumer. If you have no evidence whatsoever as to future features, you can't reasonably apply your personal expectations to a device. You must purchase it with the assumption that it will never do anything worthwhile that it doesn't right out of the box.

You have no way of knowing what or how much will be added in the future or whether it will be the least bit interesting, useful, or innovative. They very well could have been referring solely to the WiFi Music Store. Maybe there's no more to come after that at all--there's nothing dispositive to the contrary. Obviously, that's unlikely, but if you bought it assuming they would add things you think are essential, you're rather foolish.

Only because you created runaway expectations from a device, got in a large group of other over-excited Internet people, and created an iPhone in your collective heads that doesn't reflect reality. You blame all the hype, but you're forgetting that it's people like you who drove the hype in the first place.


Because you can't get from the specified features to "open platform" without a number of serious leaps of logic and major assumptions.

AppleTV runs OS X; it is not an open platform. The new iPods run OS X. They're not an open platform. Multitasking doesn't get you anywhere--it just specifies that you can switch seamless between applications on the phone. You can play music while checking the weather or texting. "Desktop class applications" simply refers to the quality of what's installed--YouTube and Safari are quite comprehensive, and Google Maps is full-featured. I won't lump Mail in this category because it sucks. It doesn't say "desktop application support" or anything at all about development.

No, you just refuse to listen because you hear what you want to hear. You can't take away a feature that never existed. There are any number of practical considerations to consider for why the platform is closed. The software is clearly unfinished, and you don't write APIs for a moving target. The software is also heavily based on some Leopard technologies, and Leopard was far from finished throughout the entire development process. You can go from there to stability issues and memory management (the device can't handle large numbers of open applications, and many of the ones written caused a general slowdown and unresponsiveness). Then there are business concerns--an unlimited data plan coupled with VOIP would degrade service quality of the data network, and would simultaneously lower demand for voice services.

It's obvious that third-party software will be coming officially to the iPhone at some point, but it was always foolhardy to believe that would be before the release of Leopard. Did you ever stop to consider the "future updates" might not be immediate?


I don't see how. The iPhone is easy to use. It also has a great deal more sophistication in "smart" applications. If it said something about "number of applications" or development in any way, shape, or form, you might have a position that makes more sense.

You're linking "smart" with "open"--a clear fallacy. The "smartness" of the phone refers to the level of its functions; Google Maps is a clear example of this. It automatically locates points of interest and provides immediate access to directions and to call from the screen. Smart applications and ease of use are highly correlated, since often similar functions on Windows Mobile are quite complex.



From all the things that apple said, that people keep quoting I really don't think being able to have something besides a black home screen qualifies as run away expectations.

I said before that just because some people had unrealistic expectations you shouldn't lump everyone who's dissatisfied into that category.

not everyone who is disappointed had runaway expectations. Its not unreasonable to think that some of the things that I couldn't do on my iphone that I could do on every crap phone I owned in the last 5 years might be added in one of the early patches since they said it was going the be the most advanced phone in the world.

If I was in here four months ago complaining about how the advertised features don't impress me, a lot of you who are defending Apple now would tell me that the platform was new and about all the potential it has.

No apple didn't say anything we could hold them to in court, and this is what your argument seems to hinge on. But the question here is wether apple made it clear that if you expect to ever have any feature, functionality, or enhancement that iPhone doesn't have out of the box on launch day you have " ran away expectations."

No Apple didn't want anyone to think that.
They hinted that they would add things because they had every intention of doing it and now they actually have done it.

If you assumed they wouldn't you would have been dead wrong after ITMS.

If you assumed they would add features than you would have been absolutely correct so I hardly think think it was a run away expectation. It was a very reasonable/correct expectation.

Ignoring any suggestion a company makes thats not legally binding isn't being a reasonable consumer, it's being a jaded one.

Not to mention a lot of people just had faith in apple. Maybe that was foolish.

I expected their to be more features and I was right. I'm just upset that the missing features that are standard in almost every phone weren't added first.

If you want to continue this debate please understand how my stance differs from others. There some holes in the iphones functionality that I am irked haven't been patched in. Simple things that all almost all phones have. Based on the fact that Apple has added features it was not unreasonable to think that they would add features when I bought the phone. Apple adding ITMS or double tapping the home button didn't really shock anybody. Also do to the basic nature and commonality of the functions iPhone lacked it was not unreasonable to think they would be added soon, maybe even first.
 

ajl917

macrumors 6502
Oct 8, 2007
468
0
Wooh I cant wait until they finally crack 1.1.1!! There are things that would be nice with 1.1.1 that I am holding out on for my 3rd party apps.
 

aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
There some holes in the iphones functionality that I am irked haven't been patched in.
Again, I have no qualms with anyone that is [irked, disappointed, disillusioned, expecting more] with the iPhone.

I simply don't agree with trying to use "but [Steve Jobs, Apple] said xxxx about the iPhone back in yyyy" as a point of justification.

I specifically don't agree with that because I feel that the detailed iPhone functionality videos that Apple released before launch addressed virtually everything about the iPhone that prior statements may have left ambiguous in some folks mind.

That's all I'm saying. :confused:

Please note that I'm not saying:

how anyone feels (or what they expect about) about the iPhone is wrong
people should not expect more from Apple
everything that Apple does is always correct
 

DavoMrMac

macrumors 6502
Oct 9, 2005
318
0
The TUAW news is great. I have an unlocked iPhone and really want to test the Wifi Music Store, but I am having to patiently wait.
 

3282872

macrumors 6502a
Dec 11, 2006
821
0
Just to let people know, the folks at TUAW have managed to jailbreak the iPhone.
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/10/08/announcing-a-preliminary-iphone-1-1-1-jailbreak/
See link above to view report.

Saw-weeeet! Nice one. Reading now (and thanks for the link). :D

UPDATE: (from link)

So what does this jailbreak mean?

- Third Party apps run. Kind of. We probably have to recompile many of them for the new frameworks because many of them crash.

- Springboard no longer recognizes DisplayOrder.plist. And the list of "whitelisted" apps (that is, the official Applications including Safari, Photos, Calendar, etc) seems to be hard-coded into Springboard.app

- The iPhone has been activated via third-party workarounds.

- The 1.1.1 binaries barely work with 1.0.2 -- at least not well enough to run the music store without major hacking.

- The Mobile Terminal App works on 1.1.1.

- The entire bsd suite still works -- as do standard command-line utilities compiled for ARM.

- 1.1.1 references both com.apple.mobile.radio and com.apple.mobile.nike.

The jailbreak method is nowhere near ready for prime time. So please be patient.

Wow, it seems Apple has gone through an awful lot of trouble in locking this sucker down. :(
 

Jayare

macrumors newbie
Oct 8, 2007
3
0
No problem, thought people might like the update.

EDIT* Gizmodo seems to have discovered the news as well.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
From all the things that apple said, that people keep quoting I really don't think being able to have something besides a black home screen qualifies as run away expectations.
That's not the issue. It's not the specific expectation that is important, it's the existence of specific expectations without evidence.

It is simply illogical and unreasonable to expect specific changes without evidence, no matter how simple or obvious they might seem to you or how common they might be on other products. What you're making is a reasonable guess, not a reasonable expectation.
I said before that just because some people had unrealistic expectations you shouldn't lump everyone who's dissatisfied into that category.
Any specific expectation is unreasonable. The only reasonable one is that something would be added some time in the future. You can't infer from that that it would be anything in particular, and you can't buy products based on your hopes and dreams. It only sets you up for disappointment when reality takes a different path. What if there's never MMS capability? If that's something you need, you intentionally and knowingly bought something inadequate.
If I was in here four months ago complaining about how the advertised features don't impress me, a lot of you who are defending Apple now would tell me that the platform was new and about all the potential it has.
Potential is the key. No one promised anything, and it is unreasonable to expect anything in particular. Sure it's likely that many things might be added, but you can't bank on it, and therefore you can't reasonably base your purchase decision around it.
Ignoring any suggestion a company makes thats not legally binding isn't being a reasonable consumer, it's being a jaded one.
That unfortunately just doesn't make sense. If a product at time of purchase is not worth the asking price at that time, you should not buy it. It's a fundamental element of a market economy. You're saying it wasn't good enough as is. Logically, you should not have purchased it. If you required something in particular, you should wait to purchase it until it meets that requirement.
If you want to continue this debate please understand how my stance differs from others.
I see how you are trying to distinguish yourself from people with "unreasonable expectations" because yours are "reasonable" in your opinion. You're still missing the basic point: any specific expectation as to a particular unannounced feature is inherently unreasonable.
 

guet

macrumors member
Sep 24, 2003
88
0
That's not the issue. It's not the specific expectation that is important, it's the existence of specific expectations without evidence. You're still missing the basic point: any specific expectation as to a particular unannounced feature is inherently unreasonable.

Sophistry. You're missing the point being made (implicitly) by many of the posters here. Their specific expectations all boil down to :

Apple will treat their customers with respect and try to cater to their wishes
Apple will not unreasonably block apps like iChat or VOIP to make more money
Apple will not deliberately attempt to lock out 3rd party apps

Based on evidence from the past :

On desktop OS X, Apple lets third party applications flourish, has a roadmap, and has an SDK. It's a level playing field between Apple and developers, and that benefits everyone - customers, Apple and developers.
Any apps can be run on desktop OS X (note Steve deliberately mentioned the underlying OS as a feature of the iPhone)
The Apple TV has been hacked, and Apple have left the hackers to do their thing

Apple has traditionally not tried to wring every last bit of money out of their customers, just most of it : ) I don't want to see them turn into Microsoft, and the best way to avoid that is to complain vociferously when they attempt a money grab. The iphone is a money grab in its present state, and yet could be a wonderful device if opened up, and that's why people are complaining. You may think the initial complaints are overblown, and based on unrealistic expectations, but this is not just about the iPhone; the iPhone is the future of OS X, and some of us don't like what we see.

If Apple continues down this road (full lock-down), I'll be looking at alternatives.
 

kyrow123

macrumors member
Oct 9, 2007
42
0
Boston, MA
That's not the issue. It's not the specific expectation that is important, it's the existence of specific expectations without evidence.

It is simply illogical and unreasonable to expect specific changes without evidence, no matter how simple or obvious they might seem to you or how common they might be on other products. What you're making is a reasonable guess, not a reasonable expectation.

Lets just play a little game, shall we.

Lets say that we viewed the iPhone videos and the features portrayed were not in the actual production iPhone on launch day, would that be unreasonable specific expectations in your opinion, even though there is evidence to prove it? Then you would respond by saying that because the phone had not been released at the time of those videos, that it was unreasonable for us to expect something from a device that has yet to be released. Sure, the evidence shows that a specific feature should be in the phone, but you would reply that the actual released product can vary, as we should all understand, due in part to other similar products that get released and have missing features that were to be in said item.

There is no need for actual evidence of every specific feature that these people would like to see in their phone. What they are claiming is that, for example, something as simple as being able to change the background of the home screen, is a minuscule feature that could be a welcomed addition at some point in time. I don't see that as an illogical and unreasonable expectation (since many phones have the ability to do just that). We base our assumptions, YES ASSUMPTIONS, on actual evidence we have gathered over the years from using other similar devices. Whether Apple decides to roll-out one of these grand new features to its user base, remains to be seen. You have no warrant to call people's expectations illogical, since there is a base for those expectations. Although I do have to agree that to expect all these things today is a bit unwarranted, since we know that it can all be updated in due time.
 

3282872

macrumors 6502a
Dec 11, 2006
821
0
Sophistry. You're missing the point being made (implicitly) by many of the posters here. Their specific expectations all boil down to :

Apple will treat their customers with respect and try to cater to their wishes
Apple will not unreasonably block apps like iChat or VOIP to make more money
Apple will not deliberately attempt to lock out 3rd party apps

Based on evidence from the past :

On desktop OS X, Apple lets third party applications flourish, has a roadmap, and has an SDK. It's a level playing field between Apple and developers, and that benefits everyone - customers, Apple and developers.
Any apps can be run on desktop OS X (note Steve deliberately mentioned the underlying OS as a feature of the iPhone)
The Apple TV has been hacked, and Apple have left the hackers to do their thing

Apple has traditionally not tried to wring every last bit of money out of their customers, just most of it : ) I don't want to see them turn into Microsoft, and the best way to avoid that is to complain vociferously when they attempt a money grab. The iphone is a money grab in its present state, and yet could be a wonderful device if opened up, and that's why people are complaining. You may think the initial complaints are overblown, and based on unrealistic expectations, but this is not just about the iPhone; the iPhone is the future of OS X, and some of us don't like what we see.

If Apple continues down this road (full lock-down), I'll be looking at alternatives.

Exactly. Very well said :).
 

dustywaffles

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
13
0
That's not the issue. It's not the specific expectation that is important, it's the existence of specific expectations without evidence.

It is simply illogical and unreasonable to expect specific changes without evidence, no matter how simple or obvious they might seem to you or how common they might be on other products. What you're making is a reasonable guess, not a reasonable expectation.

Any specific expectation is unreasonable. The only reasonable one is that something would be added some time in the future. You can't infer from that that it would be anything in particular, and you can't buy products based on your hopes and dreams. It only sets you up for disappointment when reality takes a different path. What if there's never MMS capability? If that's something you need, you intentionally and knowingly bought something inadequate.

Potential is the key. No one promised anything, and it is unreasonable to expect anything in particular. Sure it's likely that many things might be added, but you can't bank on it, and therefore you can't reasonably base your purchase decision around it.

That unfortunately just doesn't make sense. If a product at time of purchase is not worth the asking price at that time, you should not buy it. It's a fundamental element of a market economy. You're saying it wasn't good enough as is. Logically, you should not have purchased it. If you required something in particular, you should wait to purchase it until it meets that requirement.

I see how you are trying to distinguish yourself from people with "unreasonable expectations" because yours are "reasonable" in your opinion. You're still missing the basic point: any specific expectation as to a particular unannounced feature is inherently unreasonable.

It's not just that I think I have reasonable expectations. I also don't think apple technically did anything wrong. I know nothing was promised. It's a free country and I got what they said I would I get they don't owe me anything.

However you don’t have to be technically wrong to treat your customers like crap.

What if a dinner made me a burger but before hand they told me exactly what was in it, and even showed videos of it, but when they brought it to the table they wouldn’t give me catsup for it. Then the table next to me gave some catsup when waiter left, but then the waiter wouldn’t refill my drink unless I gave up the catsup so he could lock it up. What if this happened in America where you can always get catsup with your burger and this was a reputable restaurant?

Well if catsup wasn’t on the ingredient list than technically they didn’t do anything wrong, and they certainly don't owe me the catsup. but I still got treated like crap. Catsup isn’t always on the ingredient list but I expect it to be an option. It is a specific expectation based on no evidence from the menu that is totally reasonable because its a burger and you can always get catsup for your burger.

For me to expect a feature that every phone has on the most advanced phone in the world is not unreasonable because it was unreasonable not to add it.

I will even show you the reasoning.

The iPhone is a phone.
All phones let you choose a background.
Apple said the iPhone is better than all phones.
All phones let you choose a background.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
You're missing the point being made (implicitly) by many of the posters here. Their specific expectations all boil down to :
I'd agree with CJD2112 that it's very well said, but both of you flew right past the point: you're talking about 3rd party development, whereas you're replying to a discussion about what features Apple will add in the future and whether it is reasonable to expect and demand specific features to be added in software updates. So you're not really answering the question, amusingly enough an actual sophism.

The Apple TV has been hacked, and Apple have left the hackers to do their thing
The AppleTV hack isn't based on a security vulnerability. If the iPhone hackers could do their job without buffer overflows, you'd have a point.
Lets say that we viewed the iPhone videos and the features portrayed were not in the actual production iPhone on launch day, would that be unreasonable specific expectations in your opinion, even though there is evidence to prove it?
Did Apple indicate that these are features they would be adding? If that is the case, you'd have a different scenario where Apple listed specific future functionality.

It's really not that difficult.
Then you would respond by saying that because the phone had not been released at the time of those videos, that it was unreasonable for us to expect something from a device that has yet to be released.
No, that is not the case. If you are told by Apple that a specific feature is coming, it is reasonable to assume it will be added. If you are told nothing of the sort, it is unreasonable to make your own conclusions and then expect them to magically appear.
There is no need for actual evidence of every specific feature that these people would like to see in their phone.
Would like to see != expect and require
We base our assumptions, YES ASSUMPTIONS, on actual evidence we have gathered over the years from using other similar devices.
That's fine. Make as many guesses and assumptions as you'd like. Just remember that they're your guesses and assumptions, and they're not valid things to expect as inevitable.
You have no warrant to call people's expectations illogical, since there is a base for those expectations.
Please reread.
It's not just that I think I have reasonable expectations. I also don't think apple technically did anything wrong. I know nothing was promised. It's a free country and I got what they said I would I get they don't owe me anything.
However you don’t have to be technically wrong to treat your customers like crap.
What?
What if a dinner made me a burger
I'm going to stop you right there. Burgers and condiments and refusals have exactly zero to do with anything.

You're still, like the poster above, conflating a reasonable expectation with a reasonable assumption. They're not interchangeable.

but I still got treated like crap. Catsup isn’t always on the ingredient list but I expect it to be an option.
Why? Not all burgers come with ketchup, and many gourmet burgers would be downright disgusting if you tried to order it as such. Your asking for a condiment, furthermore, has nothing to do with a mass-produced electronic device which you cannot custom-order.
All phones let you choose a background.
No.
Apple said the iPhone is better than all phones.
All phones let you choose a background.
Where's the missing link? Don't they require everyone to take a logic and reasoning class in college anymore? "Better" != "has everything every other phone might have."

Sometimes less is more. They sell the iPod as better than the competition, and it does a hell of a lot less than many mp3 players.
 

dustywaffles

macrumors newbie
Sep 28, 2007
13
0
I'm going to stop you right there. Burgers and condiments and refusals have exactly zero to do with anything.

It's an analogy. The point of it is that Apple and iPhone don't exist in a vacuum. Some things are so basic it is reasonable to view their absence as an oversight, or the result of having to rush something. Some things you exept no matter who you're buying the device from.

The analogy is relevant because as it is accepted and expected you can have condiments with your food whether its advertised or not its pretty much expected with a phone you can have a background, some background, any background but black.

look, it's not important that people I never meet agree with me. I debate because it's stimulating and I try to do it in good spirits. So comments like "don't they require logic classes in college" that attack me instead of my arguments are not necessary. As I majored in math the last few years on school were nothing but proofs and symbolic logic. I can be illogical at times like everyone in the world but I am certainly capable of logic and reasoning. Two people can disagree and both be totally logical. Some thing's are a matter of perspective.

If either one of us thinks they are going to actually get the other to concede they are delusional. The most anyone will get is the last word. So if we know we're discussing this because it's interesting and fun then you don't need to make comments like that.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
It's an analogy.
It's a bad analogy that still confuses assumption and expectation. Please let that sink in, because each successive post fails to address that fundamental problem.
The analogy is relevant because as it is accepted and expected you can have condiments with your food whether its advertised or not its pretty much expected with a phone you can have a background, some background, any background but black.
I have yet to see a phone that allows you to customize backgrounds in menu screens. You can change the iPhone's background image, but just like Dashboard or Front Row or the Programs menu of just about any phone I've ever come across, the background is not always customizable and the wallpaper doesn't show in all screens.
So comments like "don't they require logic classes in college" that attack me instead of my arguments are not necessary. As I majored in math the last few years on school were nothing but proofs and symbolic logic.
It's not an attack. You volunteered your "logic" with a series of unconnected statements that form no conclusion at all. I'm trying to get you to elucidate the steps between your statements so you'll see that it's no rule of logic that moves you along--it's guesses and conjecture. You're trying at mmp, but not establishing a truth value or a relative link.

There is no foregone conclusion from your statement, and therefore no expectation. This is roughly the fourth time I've attempted to get you to see your leaps. Like many others, though, you keep skipping the fundamentals and racing ahead to your point.

If you don't build your house on a strong foundation, it's not going to stand.
 

123

macrumors 6502a
Mar 3, 2002
757
760
How do you get to "open platform" from stripped down OS X functions?
"Stripped down"? When did Apple marketing call it "stripped down"? They created the opposite impression.

You're still missing the basic point: any specific expectation as to a particular unannounced feature is inherently unreasonable.
No, you are missing the point. It's not about a particular feature, it's about tons of missing basic features, none of which have been added. I'm sure people whouldn't constantly bring up the black home screen if Apple had at least given us WPA enterprise, copy-paste, audio notes, multi recipient SMS, and manual syncing in 1.1.1. Or other features that are common on comparable phones and that were universally brought up by reviewers, like MMS, IM, ringtone sync, and Exchange push... People didn't expect feature X to be added in particular, however, they did expect Apple to work towards closing the feature gap in general (likely adding feature X eventually).
Apparently, that was "unreasonable": Apple sold us a car with three wheels and no car audio; after three months they generously sent us a funky hood ornament instead of the missing wheel OR stereo.

Third party applications are not central to what constitutes a "smart" phone.
They sure are if you release a smarter-than-current-smart-phones iPhone that is essentially stupid and lacks the most basic features and if you are apparently (1.1.1) unable or unwilling to improve the situation yourself.

[speaking about so called "Leopard technologies"...] They're well known now, more than a year after the groundwork for the iPhone would have been laid.
So what? Let me get this straight: Your point is that Apple can't release an API now because it is based on Leopard stuff that is known now and has been for months, but wasn't set in stone one year ago? Wonderful logic!

Would you write production software based on the WWDC 2006 preview of Leopard?
Umm. Of course?! What would you do? Ignore the early start kit, all the developer builds and resources and start your work when you get your hands on a release copy? Wait, not so fast, some libraries might still be buggy. Maybe wait until 10.5.4 or so... or 10.6, I've heard great things about 10.6... Good luck!
 
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