ISSCC 2004: IBM on PowerPC 970FX

[Dippo]

Originally posted by agreenster
Relax there Tonto. How long was the wait between the G3 powerbooks and the G4 powerbooks? Quite a bit if I remember, over a year.

Trust me, Apple isnt sitting around saying, "Nah, lets not make a G5 powerbook. Who wants those?" Its a matter of developing the technology, and keeping it from FRYING the motherboard and casing. Do you want a G5 Powerbook or a skillet? Take it easy. They're coming. Making a 64bit Powerbook aint exactly easy.

It seems like PC companies are able to put any old chip into a laptop. I hear that they are even putting the the overpriced P4 Extreme into a laptop.

And also eMachines has put the Athlon64 into a laptop some time ago. So, I don't think it would be too hard to put the G5 in a PB.

Of course the eMachines my friend has always cuts off when he plays games because it overheats in a few minutes, and I don't know one PC laptop user that doesn't have to have it plugged in all the time, not very portable.

 

[jwhitnah]

Originally posted by a17inchFuture
Is it just me, or do PM updates seem like a really dumb idea?(EDIT: a slight exaggeration) If one takes into account the fact that they updated literally a few months ago, I think it is ridiculous for Apple users to be griping for new ones. I mean come on, i get chided for asking for new powerbook revisions on this forum.

Being the line of apple's that has been most recently updated, i sincerely hope they don't update again before powerbooks. Its a bit ridiculous, really, that people are so demanding as well. Sure, the uppermost model wasn't changed, but everything else was.

The powermac's are nowhere in need of updating as much as the PB's.

They still have G4's, remember?

Sure PM's are easier to update than PB's, but with apple, its one product every few months, and personally, I will be disappointed if we are made to wait so 200 mhz can be added to the top of the line.

Seems less worthy to me.

Well yeah. We do need PB but we needed them months ago. Now we need PB AND PM's! I think their product refreshment rate is way too slow. That G5 2.0 GHz machine was introduced 8 month's ago, and as fast as it is, it is starting to look stale.

 

[numediaman]

Originally posted by a17inchFuture
Umm, if you can get what you need out of imovie and idvd (the non-buggy versions, obviously) then FCP and DVDSP are way too complex and expensive for your tastes.

I personnally am a film director, so i know about these things. If you absolutely need to buy something, try FCP express and then using it with idvd, because buying both in unneccessary it sounds like (imovie is the prob, that or its interaction with idvd), and if you are a "home-video" editor, as imovie and idvd have made so many people into, then you really wont use 90 percent of FCP's features, and at 1000 dollars, that's quite a large investment, not to mention the 1000 for DVDSP!

Good luck, whichever way you go!

I currently use Premiere -- so going to iMovie doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, its really is a question of FCE or FCP. When I buy, it'll be a new G5, Cinema display, extra hard drive, external burner (CD only), new printer and new scanner. So you see, I already know I'll be spending big bucks! The only question is, can I "get away" with iMovie and iDVD for a little while? Right now, the answer is no. (By the way, DVDSP is $499 -- Final Cut Pro, though, is a big investment.)

You know, this doesn't bother me that much. If Apple introduces new G5s I'll buy one even if iLife isn't updated (because it will be eventually). My biggest worry is the graphics card issue (sleeping, etc) that some people (but not all) have experienced. The last thing I want to do is spend up to $6,000 and get a G5 that is DOA!

 

[Photorun]

I wont be happy until Apple makes an iPod with 4 TBs using a G7... and a pony.

This chip seems awesome! Let's see some new units!

 

[jmerk]

told ya, i told ya...

sorry to say it but i'm sticking by my prediction that we will not see a G5 PB until AT THE EARLIEST fall 2004.

the 970fx (corrected) is dissipating 50 watts! that's great for a desktop (with 13 fans), not great for a laptop.

i keep saying it but no one is listening. the PB will not see a G5 chip for some time...

i'll eat my shoe if we see a G5 PB before August...

j

 

[NusuniAdmin]

computer updates

hmmmmm....
Powermacs...
Powermac G5 server edition (quad 2.5 ghz)
high end powermac g5 (dual 2.5 ghz)
middle poweremac g5 (dual 2.3? ghz)
low end powermac g5 (single or dual 2.0 ghz)

and for the pbooks...
high end 17" version(single 2.3 or 2.5 ghz pbook with superdrive)
low end 17" version (single 2.3 ghz with superdrive)
high end 15" (single 2.3 ghz with superdrive)
low end 15" (single 2.0 ghz with combo)
high end 12" (single 2.0 with superdrive)
low end 12" (single 2.0 with combo)

The imacs...
20" imac (single 2.3?)
17" (single 2.3 or 2.0)
15" (single 2.0)

The emac...
Superdrive edition (1.33 or 1.42 ghz g4 or a 2.0 g5)
combo drive edition (1.33 or 1.25 ghz g4 or a 2.0 g5)

The ibooks...
14" high end (1.42 or 1.33 g4)
14" low end (1.33 or 1.25 g4)
12" (1 ghz g4)

xserves...
Just updated

 

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by Photorun
I wont be happy until Apple makes an iPod with 4 TBs using a G7... and a pony.

This chip seems awesome! Let's see some new units!

I agree. Lime green pony powered G7's are the only thing that will get me in the store.

 

[Frobozz]

Re: computer updates

Originally posted by NusuniAdmin
Powermac G5 server edition (quad 2.5 ghz)

There won't be a server G5 desktop. That's what the xServes are for. You buy one desktop and you plug in an much additional horsepower you need to a rack.

 

[HiRez]

Re: told ya, i told ya...

Originally posted by jmerk
the 750fx is dissipating 50 watts! that's great for a desktop (with 13 fans), not great for a laptop.

i keep saying it but no one is listening. the PB will not see a G5 chip for some time...

i'll eat my shoe if we see a G5 PB before August...

I think you mean the 970fx, but the 50 watt value was for 2.5 GHz! The same chip at 1.4-1.6 GHz would use only a fraction of that power. It will probably still be fall before we see them though. The perfect place would be WWDC though, since lots of developers use PowerBooks, and Apple moved the show back a few more weeks this year, to the very end of June.

 

[spankalee]

Re: ISSCC 2004: IBM on PowerPC 970FX

Seeing IBM mention 2.5Ghz chips makes me wonder about why the XServe only goes to 2Ghz and what Apple's plans are.

Is it possible the the extra cooling in the Xserve still isn't enough to cool the 970fx @ 2.5Ghz? Or is it that the 2.5 parts won't be shipping in volume for w while yet?

I think the most likely scenario is that they didn't want to announce XServes that are faster than PowerMacs, but they did want to pre-announce them since they're getting a lot of interest for G5 clusters. They also don't want to pre-announce the PowerMacs. The new models will be available the day they're announced, other wise sales would die.

So if the XServe can handle the 2.5Ghz 970fx then what does Apple do when they release the new PowerMac? Does the XServe lag for a while in order to not piss off those who just bought a 2.0Ghz? They would probably be upset anyway. Does Apple bump the XServe to 2.5Ghz along with the PowerMac and have the 2.0s only exist for a few weeks? Or does Apple automatically upgrade all XServe orders to 2.5Ghz?

I think that might happen. PowerMacs will be announced and XServes will ship on the same day, and the big suprise will be that all XServe orders are upgraded to 2.5Ghz.

hmmm.....

 

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by Dippo
It seems like PC companies are able to put any old chip into a laptop. I hear that they are even putting the the overpriced P4 Extreme into a laptop.

And also eMachines has put the Athlon64 into a laptop some time ago. So, I don't think it would be too hard to put the G5 in a PB.

Of course the eMachines my friend has always cuts off when he plays games because it overheats in a few minutes, and I don't know one PC laptop user that doesn't have to have it plugged in all the time, not very portable.

Yeah but these laptops with P4 extreme's aren\t laptops. They are portable desktop replacements. They weigh a ton and are several inches thick and have crap battery life. The clever way apple was able to compete with the G4 PB is to have the equivalent power of a desktop replacement system in the form factor of a true ultralite portable. That takes engineering and thats what Apple is doing right now.

 

[NusuniAdmin]

Re: Re: computer updates

Originally posted by Frobozz
There won't be a server G5 desktop. That's what the xServes are for. You buy one desktop and you plug in an much additional horsepower you need to a rack.

I know that, but g4 servers were out at the same time as the xserves. I guess G5's r more server like than the pmac g4's but still, a specialy designed g5 server tower would be kinda cool.

 

[PPCTech]

G5 PowerBook's will come quicker than most people expect. With IBM yielding 95%+ on at 90nm on the A01 silicon is pretty damn impressive. You will see a 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 G5 PowerBook pop up by end of April.

PowerBooks have always been released in Jan, March, April, May, Sept, October, or November. There is a 7-8 month spread between all PowerBook revisions that have ever come out, and because last September saw an upgrade to the PB line, we are due for one in April.

September / October / November is too late for the PowerBook G5 simply because the G4 processor is dead. SPS Spinco / Freescale Semi (spin-off of Motorola Semi-Conductor unit which will still own the rights and create PPC processors) will still be in transition and you will see nothing creative or any more speed bumps from the G4, which will require Apple to move to G5 based notebook ASAP.

If the 90nm process will allow the 2.0GHz to run at 24.5W, then surely the 1.6GHz and 1.8GHz 90nm products dissipate considerably less. If you use the new information that 2.5GHz dissipate 50W, then 1.6/1.8 should use 15W or less, which fit perfectly into any notebook line. The most you will still see the G4 being used is upgrading the iBook.

Revisions of PowerMac's are not nearly as predictable as the PowerBook line has been, because Apple always sticks in the fastest processor available on those models, so they had to stretch the length they were on the market, because of poor supply of high yielding faster processors from Motorola on the G4. But now that IBM has entered the fray and is aggressively pushing PowerPC / Power line of processors, the PowerMac line will very closely resemble the PowerBook release rate.

Great things are in store for the PowerPC / Power architecture from IBM.

-PPCTech

 

[jmerk]

what is a good seasoning for leather and rubber?

i'm preparing to eat my shoe.

there were some great arguments made. i (stupidly) never thought of a "slower clocked" G5 90nm dissipating less heat.

i guess i was looking at it as the current powerbooks are very similar in speed/features to the g4 desktops (i'd say "current desktop" but obviously they aren't in the class with the G5).

i was assuming the same paradigm would be used (apple would try to make the g5 powerbook as similar to the g5 desktop as possible). i suppose at 1.6 or 1.8 ghz, they are fairly similar.

well, good arguments all, i hope that they come to fruition in the spring. i'll be in the market come next year about this time. i hope that they are on the second or third rev. by that time...

either way, it is nice to see that the current chip maker for apple actually has a vision for the future!

j

 

[pjkelnhofer]

Originally posted by agreenster
Thinking about it, this seems right on track with Apple's traditional timetable. August was the original intro for the G5, 6-7 months later (march) is the 2.5 update, 5-6 months later (August) is the 3.0 update.

Makes sense to me.

Difference is, we are seeing huge speedbumps instead of those dinky ones we were used to seeing. To 2.5 from 2 is pretty large. Remember when 500mhz was as fast as any Mac you could get? Now thats the increments the processors are moving in every 6 months. Nice. Theorhetically, we could see 4-4.5ghz G5s (G6?) by Summer 2005 at the rate IBM and the PPC is growing.

But percentage wise it is not really a huge speed bump. It is the same as 400 MHz to 500 MHz or 1 GHz to 1.25 GHz. It seems to me the a 25% increase in 6 months is not really a huge jump. In reality it is what we should be expecting (and pretty much on par with Moore's Law).

 

[3-22]

Re: told ya, i told ya...

Originally posted by jmerk
sorry to say it but i'm sticking by my prediction that we will not see a G5 PB until AT THE EARLIEST fall 2004.

the 970fx (corrected) is dissipating 50 watts! that's great for a desktop (with 13 fans), not great for a laptop.

i keep saying it but no one is listening. the PB will not see a G5 chip for some time...

i'll eat my shoe if we see a G5 PB before August...

j

Well 50 watts was at 2.5GHz. So at 1.8-2.0 Ghz that should shave off some watts as well.

My prediction is you will see a G5 laptop soon, probably around 1.8/2.0GHz. Battery life and heat will be worse then previous laptops though. I just don't see how they can keep up with the decent heat/watt/performance of the G3 and G4 processors, they were built for embedded markets. (but that comes with a price, you give up on the blazing speed) Maybe they can, maybe those Apple engineers have some tricks up their sleeve. But while the IBM processor watts are still way better then Intel's laptop processor offerings, i think gone are the days of the low-watt G4.

Perhaps they have a battery/cooling system backpack in mind...

 

[agreenster]

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
But percentage wise it is not really a huge speed bump....(and pretty much on par with Moore's Law).

Yep. Good point! Didnt think about it.

 

[daveL]

Re: Re: told ya, i told ya...

Originally posted by 3-22
Well 50 watts was at 2.5GHz. So at 1.8-2.0 Ghz that should shave off some watts as well.

My prediction is you will see a G5 laptop soon, probably around 1.8/2.0GHz. Battery life and heat will be worse then previous laptops though. I just don't see how they can keep up with the decent heat/watt/performance of the G3 and G4 processors, they were built for embedded markets. (but that comes with a price, you give up on the blazing speed) Maybe they can, maybe those Apple engineers have some tricks up their sleeve. But while the IBM processor watts are still way better then Intel's laptop processor offerings, i think gone are the days of the low-watt G4.

Perhaps they have a battery/cooling system backpack in mind...

I think you are ignoring the ability of PowerTune technology to allow a PB to maintain it's lower power consumption characteristic, with much higher performance. IBM cited playing a DVD as an example: Only 25% of the CPU cycles are used for playback, allowing the CPU to ramp down power dramatically the other 75% of the time. The G4, while being a low power design, does not have anything close to the power management features of the 970FX. This is a case where you can damn near have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
But percentage wise it is not really a huge speed bump. It is the same as 400 MHz to 500 MHz or 1 GHz to 1.25 GHz. It seems to me the a 25% increase in 6 months is not really a huge jump. In reality it is what we should be expecting (and pretty much on par with Moore's Law).

please dont use moores law and G4 in the same sentence. G4 hasnt kept up with or even got close to moores law. G4 is a joke. G4 is the worst decision Apple ever made in the past 5 years. debut at 500 and 5years later we are at 1.33? Yes i have a G4 and can tell you they suck! Pathetic P.O.S. frozen again for a year. excuse me why i puke!

 

[daveL]

Power5

I'm surprised nobody has commented on the Power5 info provided. The article states:

"IBM will release servers built with the dual-core Power 5 processor later this year. The new chips will offer 20 to 40 percent improvements in performance over the older Power 4 generation due in part to improved multithreading technology, Clabes said."

IBM and Apple previously stated that work on the 975 (aka 980, G6, etc) would proceed in parallel with the development of the Power5. So, it's not unreasonable to expect the 975 on 90nm by CYQ4. I believe this will be the processor that attains 3 GHz+, not the 970FX.

 

[Docrjm]

Re: told ya, i told ya...

Originally posted by jmerk
sorry to say it but i'm sticking by my prediction that we will not see a G5 PB until AT THE EARLIEST fall 2004.

the 970fx (corrected) is dissipating 50 watts! that's great for a desktop (with 13 fans), not great for a laptop.

i keep saying it but no one is listening. the PB will not see a G5 chip for some time...

i'll eat my shoe if we see a G5 PB before August...

j

Is it a nice ripe well used shoe, i hope

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

After years of G4 stagnation why are you surprised we have not mention Power5? we dont even have the G4 replaced yet.

 

[fahlman]

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
(and pretty much on par with Moore's Law).

Moore's Law has nothing to do with Mhz. In a nutshell Moore's Law states that the transistor density on integrated circuits doubles every couple of years. This exponential growth and ever-shrinking transistor size result in increased performance and decreased cost. Here is a link to Gordoan Moore's, Co-Founder of Intel, original paper.

 

[3-22]

Re: Re: Re: told ya, i told ya...

Originally posted by daveL
I think you are ignoring the ability of PowerTune technology to allow a PB to maintain it's lower power consumption characteristic, with much higher performance. IBM cited playing a DVD as an example: Only 25% of the CPU cycles are used for playback, allowing the CPU to ramp down power dramatically the other 75% of the time. The G4, while being a low power design, does not have anything close to the power management features of the 970FX. This is a case where you can damn near have your cake and eat it too.

Well I hope it all works out... You'll have to excuse my jaded attitude to the new "PowerTune" buzzword. Being a recent "switcher" from Windows/Intel I've given up hope on processor manufacturers and there creative use of terms that do nothing they promise.

BUT... It's a whole new world, and I like what IBM is doing. I hope this PowerTune thing pans out and delivers on its claims of near-real time power management... Sounds very interesting...

 

[johnnyjibbs]

It looks like we'll be getting 2.5 GHz G5s in the next few weeks then. Let's hope they are duals, or there will be complaints... Then I reckon iMacs will be next, probably up to 1.8 (or 2.0 GHz). Power Macs are due for an update, although the P4 is still stuck at 3.2/3.4GHz and looks set to continue like that for a good while yet. It seems that while Moore's law is starting to break down on the Intel side, it is starting to pick up on the PowerPC camp!

Oh, and iMovie 4 and iDVD 4 both work completely fine with me (as does FCE and iDVD 4). iMovie has really improved in performance, iDVD could be faster but it is ok. I can export straight to iDVD from iMovie without any conversion process too.