Jonathan Ive on Design and Apple's Focus on Great Products Instead of Profits

[JohnDoe98]

I've been working in technology for nearly 2 decades and tell you there is NO shortage of top coders, engineers or scientists in the U.S. Actually, there is a glut, especially among more experienced engineers/scientists. However, MBA-run companies like HP or IBM want to purchase "talent" for as little money as possible, and so they use the H1B Visa program to increase the supply of lower cost labor and have sent millions of engineering and science jobs to India and China in order to procure people willing to work for less. You can't compete with the Chinese on salary because the yuan is kept artificially low and the Chinese state actually subsidizes American businesses out of their own pocket.

You do realize how the H1B program works right? Let me quote something from Wikipedia for you:

The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) is responsible for ensuring that foreign workers do not displace or adversely affect wages or working conditions of US workers. For every H-1B petition filed with the USCIS, there must be included a Labor Condition Application (LCA) certified by the U.S. Department of Labor. The LCA is designed to ensure that the wage offered to the non-immigrant worker meets or exceeds the "prevailing wage" in the area of employment. The LCA also contains an attestation section designed to prevent the program from being used to import foreign workers for the purpose of breaking a strike, or for the purpose of replacing US citizen workers.

If the program is being abused it is due to a poor implementation of the regulation in place. But hey, we need less regulation and less government interference right? That's the ticket to protecting the US work force! Yeah right...

 

[axual]

If your goal isn't making money, then why not lower your profit margins and sell your stuff at a reasonable price?

Evidence would suggest Apple products priced correctly for the market, else they would not be selling anywhere near the numbers they are doing.

The point here is that Apple does not put profits ahead of product and design.

If you build a great product, the profits will follow. If you build a great product, with higher quality, people will pay a bit more for it.

 

[iSayuSay]

Well if you don't care much about profit. How about give us a nice and proper update on MacPro?

I've had enough of Apple Toys. I have Macbook Air, iPhone, iMac and iPad.

Now I need something relevant from Apple Computer, Inc for serious works. Something big with aluminum box, tower and cable. Get the idea?

Oh wait, it's Apple, Inc today, right? Maybe planning to be Apple Mobile, Inc in a couple of years

 

[boronathan]

Evidence would suggest Apple products priced correctly for the market, else they would not be selling anywhere near the numbers they are doing.

The point here is that Apple does not put profits ahead of product and design.

If you build a great product, the profits will follow. If you build a great product, with higher quality, people will pay a bit more for it.

It's not a question of putting profits before design. I don't think they do that either. They design quality products and price it what the market will bear, and boy oh boy does the market bear it. People are just fine with the iPhone price.

however, profit is a big deal for any company. Believe me what inspires quality is the profit.

 

[Topper]

Maybe planning to be Apple Mobile, Inc in a couple of years

Apple iGadgets Inc.

 

[HelveticaRoman]

The price of their products, their offshored manufacturing and their worldwide corporate tax planning arrangements all suggest that someone in Apple does indeed want to make money -- and as much of the stuff as possible.

 

[larrylaffer]

He simply mentions that Apple's way of doing business is different. You can believe that or not. They just know that the money will come.

You're right. Their way of doing business is quite different. They really focus on four main objectives:

1. Pay employees less than every other tech giant
2. Make big batches of Kool-Aid™
3. ?????
4. PROFIT!

 

[linuxcooldude]

I've been working in technology for nearly 2 decades and tell you there is NO shortage of top coders, engineers or scientists in the U.S. Actually, there is a glut, especially among more experienced engineers/scientists. However, MBA-run companies like HP or IBM want to purchase "talent" for as little money as possible, and so they use the H1B Visa program to increase the supply of lower cost labor and have sent millions of engineering and science jobs to India and China in order to procure people willing to work for less. You can't compete with the Chinese on salary because the yuan is kept artificially low and the Chinese state actually subsidizes American businesses out of their own pocket.

In other words, just as many specialist MDs make money hand over fist because of having high demand skills in a market where there are relatively few MDs (thanks to America's most successful lobby, the AMA), scientists and engineers should also be able to command a nice salary and live a good middle class life for the same reasons----only that doesn't happen any longer. Thanks to congressional lobbying and outright lies about a shortage, high tech companies are working around normal market forces to push salaries way, way down----McDonald's low. Great compensation for that PhD, huh?

There is a partial truth here too -- many lies have them -- in that not as many kids are going into the hard sciences as they used to, which means that CHEAPer inexperienced 'talent' is become scarcer. Big Tech actually prefers inexperienced people over experienced people because the MBAs can't see the difference because they aren't technical -- they can only see differences in shades of green. Less green is always better. Big Tech uses this trend to help lobby, successfully, for more and more H1B visas and tax credits to offshore workers and layoff more American workers. It's a vicious cycle created by Big Tech in the first place. Students are behaving rationally by avoiding the hard sciences and engineering because they know they are poor career decisions today, resulting in lower pay and poor job security compared to medicine or business. PhDs in engineering and science are very hard to obtain in the first place, and it's just not worth it. American kids know what's going on and are acting rationally to avoid the trap that many American experienced scientists and engineers are in today.

A third party estimated it would take nine months to get the engineers ready to work and supplying Apples devices. That includes hiring the engineers, moving them to the plant. The Chinese could do it in 5 days! Because Foxconn already had engineers ready at the plant. Its just not the engineers themselves, but the supply chain is right for most raw material is very close to the plant meaning no delays or shipping costs to America. All that plays into the decision.

 

[Rogifan]

Believe me what inspires quality is the profit.

Good god that sounds like something a loony OWS'er would say.

I shouldn't be surprised though. It's our education system and president here in the USA that would have you believe everyone (except themselves of course) is obsessed with money and profit. Heck, Obama recently claimed the government created the internet so business could profit from it. Sad thing is a lot of people actually believe that.

----------

You're right. Their way of doing business is quite different. They really focus on four main objectives:

1. Pay employees less than every other tech giant
2. Make big batches of Kool-Aid™
3. ?????
4. PROFIT!

Wow and yet they still get people to work for them and people in the millions to buy their products. I'd be curious to know what the turnover rate is at Apple compared to other tech companies. Any stats on that? And how about the customer satisfaction surveys where Apple is usually at the top in their respective field. If Apple was raping their employees and customers as some here suggest, no one would be working for them or buying their products. Unless you're suggesting Apple employees and product owners are idiots?

 

[boronathan]

Good god that sounds like something a loony OWS'er would say.

I shouldn't be surprised though. It's our education system and president here in the USA that would have you believe everyone (except themselves of course) is obsessed with money and profit. Heck, Obama recently claimed the government created the internet so business could profit from it. Sad thing is a lot of people actually believe that. [?

What you're saying sounds like something those loony iPhone fanboys say

You're saying profits/costs are not a consideration when creating a design/product?

Lala land sounds amazing! and why the political commentary?

 

[Thunderhawks]

You're right. Their way of doing business is quite different. They really focus on four main objectives:

1. Pay employees less than every other tech giant
2. Make big batches of Kool-Aid™
3. ?????
4. PROFIT!

Knowledge is power.

You don't seem to have knowledge!

(Especially not about paying employees and how companies arrive at what to pay for which skills)

 

[Sackvillenb]

yeah... I suppose they don't think of profits too much during the design phase... but they certainly do during the pricing phase!

 

[Mike Valmike]

Every competitive company's goal is to maximize profits. Their goal is to make money.

What Jony Ive is saying, and what other companies -- but not many -- have also discovered, is that if they focus on the content, the money will follow. Companies that focus on the money see their content suffer, and enter a gradual downward spiral.

 

[boronathan]

yeah... I suppose they don't think of profits too much during the design phase... but they certainly do during the pricing phase!

Well yeah this is what i mean. Ive doesn't just hand over his design and say "i don't care about profits we're making it like this"

No design would be approved without them figuring out what it would cost to make and how much they can make off each unit.

 

[Jon the Heretic]

Yes, it's abused...and it's common

You do realize how the H1B program works right? Let me quote something from Wikipedia for you:

If the program is being abused it is due to a poor implementation of the regulation in place. But hey, we need less regulation and less government interference right? That's the ticket to protecting the US work force! Yeah right...

Yes, it's abused, and on a very large scale. It's systemic. When Bill Gates whines they need more H1B Visas because they don't have enough skilled workers, he really means they don't have enough people to do the job for what he wants to pay them.

If they were paid according to what the forces of demand and supply (previously known as "market forces") dictate, there should be few unemployed scientists/engineers and they should be be paid like MDs. And higher pay would result in a greater supply (schools creating more), which would drive down salaries naturally since unlike MDs, scientists and engineers do not have a massive lobby like the AMA to enforce birth control and ensure salaries remain high.

But that doesn't happen --- H1B Visas, outsourcing and even the cry for more young scientists/engineers --- is all about getting labor that is cheaper than they want to pay for. They lobby congress to get around normal market forces of supply and demand and then lie about it, telling the unemployed (and more commonly, underemployed) scientist/engineers that they were "out competed" by the "free market", when in fact, the game's been rigged.

 

[rjohnstone]

You do realize how the H1B program works right? Let me quote something from Wikipedia for you:



If the program is being abused it is due to a poor implementation of the regulation in place. But hey, we need less regulation and less government interference right? That's the ticket to protecting the US work force! Yeah right...

The H1B program works for business, not for US workers.
And no, the salary rules are not enforced.
Having worked for IBM a few years ago and even my current employer, our H1B workers earn 1/3 to 1/2 what a US worker with the same skills does.
It's not the US workers skill set that is the issue.
It's the fact that we won't live with 4 or 5 other guys in a two bedroom apartment while working 16 hour days for a lot less $$$.

The H1B program needs to be eliminated outright.

 

[phillipduran]

The proof is in the quality of the product. Apple could design products that cut corners and sacrifices quality and they do not. They build the best devices that they can reasonably create, and sell those. The focus is on quality not on using what is good enough because it will increase profit margins.

Look at the USB charging adaptor that comes with the iPhone. It has higher quality components and extra features built into it that you don't find with other smart phone USB chargers.

To say it is about the money first would be to say they run the product through a quality cutting process to substitute inferior parts for the better ones. I don' think they do this.

I keep hearing people so convinced that all companies put money first. This just isn't the case. Companies aren't all greedy money sharks. I know mine has made decisions that cost us money but serve the customer better. Why is it so hard to believe that some companies put the product first and that all decisions are not based on profits before all other considerations?

 

[floydts]

Remember that "Marketing Dept" has veto power over ALL

It is well known that Apple's marketing department calls the shots. Marketing controls design dept. They even control whether or not Apple reps attend software security confrences.

This proves that Apple is about making profit.
The money they have in the bank further proves it.

 

[linuxcooldude]

It is well known that Apple's marketing department calls the shots. Marketing controls design dept. They even control whether or not Apple reps attend software security confrences.

This proves that Apple is about making profit.
The money they have in the bank further proves it.

Have an extremely hard time believing that one. I'm sure Steve Jobs let the marketing department tell him what to do.

 

[boronathan]

The proof is in the quality of the product. Apple could design products that cut corners and sacrifices quality and they do not. They build the best devices that they can reasonably create, and sell those. The focus is on quality not on using what is good enough because it will increase profit margins.

Look at the USB charging adaptor that comes with the iPhone. It has higher quality components and extra features built into it that you don't find with other smart phone USB chargers.

To say it is about the money first would be to say they run the product through a quality cutting process to substitute inferior parts for the better ones. I don' think they do this.

I keep hearing people so convinced that all companies put money first. This just isn't the case. Companies aren't all greedy money sharks. I know mine has made decisions that cost us money but serve the customer better. Why is it so hard to believe that some companies put the product first and that all decisions are not based on profits before all other considerations?

The problem is putting profits first has this negative connotation. Why is it negative? I think Apple is one of the if not the most amazing companies to exist and i don't think putting profits first makes them greedy sharks. It makes them smart and obviously makes them successful.

why wouldn't a business want money? What's so negative about it?

 

[smoledman]

- the ultrafocus on iOS devices.
- the iBookstore pricing
- all these lawsuit nonsense with Samsung etc
- etc etc etc etc

And you tell me profit isn't their goal?

Oh and nobody says they don't focus on making great products, but to say money is the last thing on their mind is just... Dontknowifinseriousdenialorjustplaindotdotdot.jpg

Apple can walk and chew gum at the same time. I see ultrafocus on Macs as well as iOS devices. The Retina Macbook Pro is now considered the greatest laptop of all time.

 

[rjohnstone]

The Retina Macbook Pro is now considered the greatest laptop of all time.

By who?
Oh.. Mac users. Got it.

 

[Jon the Heretic]

Totalitarian governments...rock?

A third party estimated it would take nine months to get the engineers ready to work and supplying Apples devices. That includes hiring the engineers, moving them to the plant. The Chinese could do it in 5 days! Because Foxconn already had engineers ready at the plant. Its just not the engineers themselves, but the supply chain is right for most raw material is very close to the plant meaning no delays or shipping costs to America. All that plays into the decision.

Yes, that's because China has a totalitarian government coupled with massive overpopulation. China itself often picks up the bill for factory expansions, passing the savings to corporations who are more than happy to accept state-sponsored welfare. Apple included here.

China also has a rather checkered safety record. Everyone hates those pesky regulations, but when you wave them, people die or are injured. I positively choked on the smog in China when I was there...it's no hole barred capitalism -- health of its people and the environment be damned. But it saves a nickle, right?

Moreover, because China has manipulated their currency, Chinese engineers are super cheap even when they have the same standard of living. I'll take 2, 3! uH, WHAT did he say again? (Communication is so overrated).

Totalitarian Communism: Capitalism's New Best Friend.

 

[kdarling]

IMHO, if there's an upvoting, there has to be a downvoting too, otherwise it's meaningless.

The primary reason for the voting in the first place, was so that the forum could avoid all the one-line "+1" responses. The up-vote keeps that purpose. Agreement requires no explanation.

OTOH, now that people actually have to explain why they don't agree with something, the debates have brought in more people with wider views, IMO.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Yes, that's because China has a totalitarian government coupled with massive overpopulation. China itself often picks up the bill for factory expansions, passing the savings to corporations who are more than happy to accept state-sponsored welfare. Apple included here.

China also has a rather checkered safety record. Everyone hates those pesky regulations, but when you wave them, people die or are injured. I positively choked on the smog in China when I was there...it's no hole barred capitalism -- health of its people and the environment be damned. But it saves a nickle, right?

Moreover, because China has manipulated their currency, Chinese engineers are super cheap even when they have the same standard of living. I'll take 2, 3! uH, WHAT did he say again? (Communication is so overrated).

Totalitarian Communism: Capitalism's New Best Friend.

A lot has changed over in China. The goverment does not have to make workers go to Foxconn, they line up in droves wanting to get hired. Foxconn has one of the best, if not THE best working conditions in China for factories.