MacUpdate Software Bundle Sale [Update]

[mmccaskill]

I think the point eenu is making is that, while apparently legal business model, it is rather unethical for the organizer (of that last deal) to walk away with ~$400k while the developers got $5-15k. I think he feels it should've been based on percentage rather than upfront fee.

 

[displaced]

I think the point eenu is making is that, while apparently legal business model, it is rather unethical for the organizer (of that last deal) to walk away with ~$400k while the developers got $5-15k. I think he feels it should've been based on percentage rather than upfront fee.

Well, the scheme wouldn't exist at all if no developers took part. Assuming full disclosure between the organiser and the developers taking part, they'll be aware of the balance of the profits. If they're aware of this and still deem it to be a good thing for their businesses, then 'more power to their elbow' as my old nan used to say.

Like I've said, I can't help but think there's some sort of different arrangement this time around. Not to mention, we mustn't forget that this is not a MacHeist-run affair (although they are -- optionally -- involved), so it's not entirely fair to judge this scheme based on the performance of the MacHeist one.

 

[radixhound]

What the hell were they thinking?

My guess? "Our target market is developers, and they'd know what this is and think this is funny. If we scare away non-developers—that'd make developers laugh even harder. End result? We don't have to respond to requests from people outside our target market and we win over more of our target audience. It's a win-win deal!"

I suspect that you're not in their target market, macquariumguy.

 

[Abstract]

I have read the entire thread, and while the developers were given the terms of the deal, and this is the 2nd bundle (not the 1st), where devs now know what they're actually getting themselves into, I don't like how the terms are still for $5000-7000. Why not offer more to the developers out of good conscience, say $12,000, or a percentage of sales? MacUpdate and MacHeist can make their money, but out of good conscience and support for developers (who they supposedly care about ), they should have offered more in return.

I don't know.

 

[macquariumguy]

I suspect that you're not in their target market, macquariumguy.

I think that bundle would be useful to many besides developers. The only thing that might disqualify me (other than the dumb web cam trick) is that I already own Graphic Converter and Tech Tool and Transmit (in place of Fetch). Even so, it looked like an interesting deal, especially if the sales goals were met.

 

[ElderBrE]

@shadowfax.... my trainers have holes in, i am wearing a top i bought in 1999 and i walk everywhere

it's amazing how i get contacted my people related to the promotion then newbies join and flame me

Guess that is utter coincidence......

Yet at the same time it's funny that most of those you proclaim to be "pro-MacHeist" have been members of this forum and site for several years, some even years before you.

 

[Abstract]

He never claimed anyone in particular to be "pro-MacHeist" or a friend of MacHeist. You made that conclusion falsely.

I'm sure he only claimed that for people with the word "Newbie" under their screenname.....people like yourself.


Just wanted to clarify.

 

[mixel]

Eenu isn't being that bad, I think he's making a lot of good points which someone had to make.

I'm on the fence. I got the first macheist before reading anything about it and regretted it somewhat afterward after learning more about what may have happened.

The fact that people agree to something doesn't mean they're not being taken advantage of. There aren't trading standards bodies or "fair trade" schemes for shareware, throw devs money and coverage and they may agree.. But if the promoters really ARE taking that big a cut, especially if they're using charitable donations to offset and "but wont the developer lose out by selling it so cheap" type guilt.. That was pretty dubious. (though it can be looked at or explained in other lights easily)

Saying that, I have more faith in MU than Macheist for some reason.

I'm not saying people should necessarily feel guilty for buying, but I don't think they should be ignorant, and they should read up about it first.. "it's a good deal and thats all that matters." does a lot of damage.

Good luck to the developers, and i hope this works out for them anyway.

 

[aquajet]

There are several aspects of this scheme which rub me the wrong way, and are why I would never buy this "bundle". I don't plan to buy any of the programs individually either, even though I'm interested in some.

 

[Abstract]

The fact that people agree to something doesn't mean they're not being taken advantage of. There aren't trading standards bodies or "fair trade" schemes for shareware, throw devs money and coverage and they may agree.. But if the promoters really ARE taking that big a cut, especially if they're using charitable donations to offset and "but wont the developer lose out by selling it so cheap" type guilt.. That was pretty dubious. (though it can be looked at or explained in other lights easily)

Exactly.

However, I do understand that most people don't know lick about Fair Trade. Same sort of situation in coffee growing countries......it's "do or die" for growers, and despite the poor financial offer they get for their product, they don't have a lot of other avenues. They're convinced that any sale is better than no sale, which is actually quite true. Doesn't mean I don't have a problem with it, though.

Whether anyone agrees to the deal or not is not relevant to me. I know every developer involved agreed to the terms. However, it still isn't equitable.

Saying that, I have more faith in MU than Macheist for some reason.

So would I, however naive that may be.

 

[eenu]

I have had contact from Phil Ryu who wanted to clear a few things up. All the figures of $5000 etc Phil has assured me is inaccurate.

http://www.wired.com/software/coolapps/news/2006/12/72333

Where it should be noted that (From Phil and mine conversation):

"MacHeist developers were offered bonuses if sales exceeded expectations. They did, and the minimum payout was 10k"

These figures used in this thread have been taken from the article by Gruber:

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/macheist_lousy_tshirt

http://daringfireball.net/2006/12/iniquities_of_the_selfish

Which was posted earlier in this thread. They were based on Mac Heist I... however Phil has said they are incorrect. They also no way reflect Mac Heist II in anyway. THIS promotion IS NOT Mac Heist II.

For the particualr promotion in question the bundle app terms were negotiated by MacUpdate and that was done on a revenue sharing model.

Thank you to Phil for contacting me and clearing a few things up!

These

Last time the developers made 1.1% while MacHeist made 90% profit. Thats roughly $5000 for each developer and $500,000 for MacHeist. This time the deal is nearly the same.

The devs would be better off if you pirated the software instead.

[edit]I've been assured by the MacUpdate promoters that their deal is different than the MacHeist one.

I have also been repeatedly told that the above figures are a lie, but those who provided them to me disagree. I guess its just up to each of us who to believe - I honestly would like to believe the MacHeist guys, but I don't really understand why the developers involved would lie about what they got.[/edit]

I've just spoken to a Dev who is taking part. Last time they were offered a fix fee of $5000, this year it was slightly higher ie 6-7k. I could not get a proper figure due to NDAs.

When approached they are not allowed to negotiate and its fix fee or no fee.

NOTE: This is only information that has been passed to me and maybe not factually correct

Because they are paid a flat fee, not a percentage. No one would sign up to get 1% knowing the promoter gets 90%. Thats why Ryu keeps all the numbers secret and prevents the developers from discussing or disclosing the information.

If you buy the package the dev has to provide support and does not get paid anything for it (he gets the $5k regardless of whether you buy the package or not). If you pirate the software he gets the same exposure but doesn't have to provide support and you don't support the MacHeist profiteers.

There are already links in this thread from an indie dev who took part last time

And not all 10 felt wronged the companies run by the mac heist members took $15,000 each whilst the loan indie devs took 5.... i will say it again, what’s in dispute is whether the money is being distributed equitably. Just because someone is satisfied with a bad deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a bad deal.

NOTE: Figures based on Grubers report

All lame links one of which was written by someone at delicious software which were paid more than the small devs....3x more.



I would but arn never replies to his mail. And i wasn't asking him how much i was asking if he was making any. I just want to know if this is basically paid advertising as a news item on MR and if so then my financial contributions to this site will cease along with some other people.

I assume some will be happy, and good for them, but again a bad deal is still a bad deal..... the thing that gets me more is the people running the bundle and how much they take. More money should be given to the devs and more to charity.

Not only that devs should all be given the same deal. Not some paid $15,000 and some $5,000 and then told to not talk to each other so they dont find out.

Now deals like this with the partners they have should be well aware of the number of sales they get and as such should have increased the amount the devs get.... or more sensibly given a percentage. But the deal is only a tiny bit better than last time and thus is still ripping people off whether they think they are getting a good deal out of it or not.

At SeoxyS, your app is $14.95. I like your app and was going to buy it today at that price. Your telling me you would rather i went via a bundle where you stand to make $0.3?

NOTE: Figures by Gruber

It really sounds like you have ulterior motives.

You have a point, but greed is just one of the seven deadly sins. let's not forget vanity. Being holier than thou is just plain off-putting.

Honestly, I can't understand how to judge Phill and the others over this. I have no idea how much work they put into the whole MacHeist business, but I will make a couple of points...

People who take risks do deserve to be paid when their risks pay off. That's how venture capitalism works... and it works a lot better than other economic systems. Yes, people get carried away and they have to be stopped. This is not even remotely one of those cases.

When you give someone a flat fee for something, you take 100% of the risk. you could totally end up paying them $5k out of your own pocket if things go south. And that's what Phill & Co. did. It's unusual, but not remotely unfair. the fact that they seem to have hit it big is, well, a matter of perspective.

One thing to remember is, this is not destroying anyone. the developers got away with $5,000, and a number of them seem to have noted increased sales as well. They may be servicing user requests on licenses that they aren't making much off, but that is their investment in their software's future.

I really think that all of you guys should consider that these guys got paid $5-$15,000 to have their software promoted. They paid for the promotion with "practically given away" license sales. supporting those, which may take awhile for some time, still probably isn't going to cost (in terms of man hours, which is a pretty abstract concept for developers who are probably self-employed) near what it would cost to put an ad in MacWorld, get software professionally reviewed, etc.

But then, that's a gamble. That's the gamble that the developers take. And I really, really doubt, somehow, that if MacHeist were a total flop, and failed to "break even," that the developers would all be sending their money back to Phill.

Seriously, if you have a problem with this, I darn well better not find any "sweatshop t-shirts" in your closet, and you better be buying bio-diesel for your car that wasn't manufactured by a car company that's screwing it's lowest paid employees that actually do "most of the work." I mean, you couldn't possibly be dealing with Shell or ExxonMobil if you won't buy from Phill Ryu & Co.

 

[Donnacha]

I suspect MacHeist involved a lot of work, over several months by several skilled practioners (of marketing, graphic design, programming and, most difficult of all, deal-making).

All those individuals could have avoided any risk and simply sold their time and creativity for good money elsewhere but, instead, they decided to take a gamble on something no-one else had ever tried. The gamble worked, they did well. No-one got ripped off and the slanderous claim, earlier in this thread, that the charities did not receive the money they were promised has been deleted and retracted. My understanding is that the amount of donation was, in fact, actually rounded upwards - you can find the entire breakdown in their forum.

Just to re-iterate my claim that deal-making is the trickiest part of putting a bundle together: Eenu, you say that your production of a fairer bundle is already underway and mention that you have emailed Panic, just waiting now for them to get back to you. Honestly, that just isn't going to cut it. At this stage, anyone putting together a bundle needs to hop on a bunch of planes and personally visit every single dev or company he wants to see in his bundle. You're asking them to take their most precious resource and gamble it on your ingenious marketing nous. They have to buy into you and the time, talent and energy you have already invested in your idea. They have to see that you have assembled a talented team around you, all of whom also believe in your unique ability to pull this off.

I don't know much about the guy behind MacHeist but I do know that he managed all of the above and, ultimately, delivered on the vision he was selling.

I understand that, sitting at home, it doesn't seem fair that someone walked away with so much money but the point is that he had what it takes. Eenu, no-one, absolutely no dev or company, is going to buy into one guy with no money and no team behind him, no matter how idealistic his aims may be. It just won't fly because you're not actually bringing anything to the table other than a willingness to write emails and bitch on forums. I was particularly impressed by the regret you expressed about these new people flooding into the Mac community - clearly, you have an innate understanding of how fewer potential customers is far better for the software industry.

One thing that could work, that could be driven by a determined individual, would be a campaign to persuade as many software producers as possible to do a once-off 50% discount on their licensing prices during the month of November - capturing all those new Leopard switchers, drawing attention to the higher quality and value of Mac software, and allowing people to stock up on gift licenses before Christmas (making it look like you spent the full price on the gift ). The wave of new users would also create a secondary wave of users buying in at full-price in the run-up to Christmas.

Who knows, perhaps developers will discover, as I speculated earlier in this thread, that, with a larger base of Mac users, lower prices generally are now not only viable but, also, more profitable. That would be one Hell of a break-through for you to work towards, Eenu.

 

[shadowfax]

Eenu isn't being that bad, I think he's making a lot of good points which someone had to make.

I'm on the fence. I got the first macheist before reading anything about it and regretted it somewhat afterward after learning more about what may have happened.

The fact that people agree to something doesn't mean they're not being taken advantage of. There aren't trading standards bodies or "fair trade" schemes for shareware, throw devs money and coverage and they may agree.. But if the promoters really ARE taking that big a cut, especially if they're using charitable donations to offset and "but wont the developer lose out by selling it so cheap" type guilt.. That was pretty dubious. (though it can be looked at or explained in other lights easily)

I wasn't irritated by Eenu's points, which were of great interest to me and initially made me lose interest in the deal, which I was about to go for (for TT Pro). The John Gruber links (etc.) disturbed me. I got rather irritated, though, with that bit about being better and "not profiteering" and what not. I thought it was rather presumptuous.

Not only that, but seriously, the whole idea of "fair trade" in a market where developers are free to choose any of MANY, MANY methods of advertisement AND distribution of their software is rather ridiculous.

Fixed pay is very standard. This is very similar to, say, your salary. Whether the company you work for makes a $10 million profit or a huge loss, they are obliged to render you your salary. Now, granted, some form of profit-sharing is pretty common in corporate america, but it's not required. It seems pretty sweet when the risk-taker is losing (and you're still making $60k). It's kind of frustrating when the company rolls it in, but that's how it works. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Classic. Now, whether it's very nice to hog it all when you win your bet, that's another story. It's not very nice, but it's certainly fair. And even if MacHeist had done this, I wouldn't say that he'd run off with all the money for nothing. It's quite clear that MH gave these apps some real publicity, and that's what the main goal was.

This has absolutely nothing to do with things like Fair Trade coffee, where coffee growers are literally forced into squalor by large corporations that control the SINGLE way that most growers have to sell their beans (and hence, their livelihood). It's truly sad to me that American coffee consumption has turned such a unique, amazing cash crop into a canned commodity that costs next to nothing.

Anyway, that's a rant for someone with better qualifications than me.

I am glad to see that Phill is apparently not a completely greedy hog, though, and I feel better about this whole deal, enough that I am taking this MU deal.

 

[iAlice]

Hi Everyone,

I just bought this bundle through MacHeist, and I'm happy about my purchase.

Recently I had been debating between Amadeus Pro and Sound Studio to help me transfer my vinyl records and tapes to digital, so when I saw Amadeus Pro in this bundle, plus GarageSale and other enticing goodies, I knew it would be a good and fun move for me.

The bundle is selling so well on its first day out of the starting gate that I am optimistic about getting 2 probably 3 of the extra apps unlocked, too.

The purchasing page looked like I was buying it through the MacHeist part of MacUpdate. They obviously have an amicable business relationship with each other as well as with the developers who chose to participate in this savvy marketing strategy.

I have no qualms about participating in this offer whatsoever, on either ethical or value-for-my-money grounds.

Thanks, MacRumors, for alerting us to this offer, and also to MacHeist, MacUpdate, and the software developers for making it possible for us to test-drive (without annoying trial expiration countdowns) and own a variety of apps that I, for the most part, would never have tried.

Cheers!

 

[Micrll]

I would just like to say, that as someone who bought the last bundle I think that this is a wonderful marketing method. Mac Heist started a few weeks before I got my first mac. As a Computer Science Student deciding to get one it was a rather big decision. Through the Mac Heist give-aways, mac-app-aday (which went well for me, I got most) and the final bundle, I have discovered a wonderful world of shareware applications. When I was on windows I NEVER paid for any shareware applictions(though I never had much money) I always looked for freeware equivilants, which may or may not have done the job. Now I really see the quality in shareware apps. While it is possible that the developers gor ripped off the first time, some of them now have a customer (me) who will come back for more. Some of the programs I have found worthless and I never would have boughten in the first place, some I have found to be very useful and may buy later upgrades to. One of them, Text Mate I have fallen for. I never would have paid the price that it sold alone for, but now that I have used it like crazy and I know how much time it saves me I will be buying future upgrades to it, probebly for a long time.

Additionally, I would say that these promotions have really made me want to get started on the path to mac development. If I made a piece of software and Phill came by offering a large chunk of change, and with the opportunity to get a huge captive audience I think that I would probebly be worth it, yes a percentage would be better but hey its business, I don't think that its my place to judge others decisions.

 

[arn]

Hi all,

I just wanted to clarify our position. I am typically very conscious about stories/situations that are potentially conflicts of interest, and this story probably did cross over that line, though unintentionally. Such posts are rare, but we've experiemented with more commercial posts (see our disclaimer on parallels). I do believe that any sort of true pay-posts make it impossible to be impartial (see: Paid Reviews Backlash)

Our relationship with MacHeist started from Heist 1 (link1, link2), which was purely cross promotional and MacRumors received no direct financial reward for participating. When I posted today's story, I simply modeled it after the original posts from the previous heist... but our relationship has changed this time, in that we do now have a financial relationship with MacHeist.

So, I've added a small disclaimer to the story and will be more conscious about this in the future on the rare occasion it may become an issue again.

apologies for any confusion,
arn

 

[ElderBrE]

He never claimed anyone in particular to be "pro-MacHeist" or a friend of MacHeist. You made that conclusion falsely.

I'm sure he only claimed that for people with the word "Newbie" under their screenname.....people like yourself.


Just wanted to clarify.

He used the word "Heistists" that as you can see got edited. And I do realize he went off the newbie rank to make the claim that people joined the forum only to flame him. You see, the posts got edited, as you can see.

Just wanted to clarify that, he's no angel and I'm not making things up.

 

[Doctor Q]

the posts got edited, as you can see.

We had to edit and remove a number of posts in this thread, but it was done based on forum rules. We didn't make judgements of whether claims in posts were true or false. It's a controversial topic and we are enforcing forum guidelines and not a particular point of view.

 

[eenu]

He used the word "Heistists" that as you can see got edited. And I do realize he went off the newbie rank to make the claim that people joined the forum only to flame him. You see, the posts got edited, as you can see.

Just wanted to clarify that, he's no angel and I'm not making things up.

Just to clarify the original comment was not in relation to you and the person you quoted posted that before it was edited.

 

[rockosmodurnlif]

Thanks eenu,

Left to my own devices, I would probably have passed on this offer. However, your pompous, sanctimonious drivel persuaded me to take a closer look at the object of your derision. Macupdate have sold another bundle and it's all thanks to you!

It's a marketing gimmick! Play both sides against the middle and profit! Wait ...

1.) Plan bundle.
2.) Partner with MacHeist & MacRumors
3.) Create controversy
4.) Profit!
... or something like that.

I'm just kidding, but it seems like a good deal and could only work out for everyone. If the devs get screwed, they get screwed but whatever they make of it is more than they had before they took part, the customers gain new programs at discounted prices and the middle men make their money (else why be a middle man?).

As I read the thread I didn't get the controversy, especially when one of the devs spoke up and said "thanks but no thanks" for others looking out for him, until I read this:

Our relationship with MacHeist started from Heist 1 (link1, link2), which was purely cross promotional and MacRumors received no direct financial reward for participating. When I posted today's story, I simply modeled it after the original posts from the previous heist... but our relationship has changed this time, in that we do now have a financial relationship with MacHeist.

So, I've added a small disclaimer to the story and will be more conscious about this in the future on the rare occasion it may become an issue again.

apologies for any confusion,
arn

So is this an advert disguised as story for our (and your) benefit?

I don't begrudge adverts, because they help pay the bills, unless they start to resemble something else.

 

[Eraserhead]

However, I do understand that most people don't know lick about Fair Trade. Same sort of situation in coffee growing countries......it's "do or die" for growers, and despite the poor financial offer they get for their product, they don't have a lot of other avenues. They're convinced that any sale is better than no sale, which is actually quite true.

Well it's different as the developers can continue to sell their product without the promotion if they think they will make more money, which doesn't apply to the coffee producers. Unless they can manage to sell Fairtrade Coffee which is difficult when the major companies, such as Nestle and Kenco refuse to sell Fairtrade coffee.

 

[failsafe1]

I was actually glad to see this small item posted on a site that I read several times a day. I bought the bundle after a few minutes of research on a couple of the apps I was not sure about. I then started reading the forum and remembered the controversy from last years bundle deals. I think there was one from Maczot in addition to the other Macheist. I certainly thought the fellows participating in this year's promotion would know what is what and them deciding to participate of their own free will cleared things up for me. From buying bundles like this I have become a regular customer for some of the apps. I have purchased full versions even after getting a bundled version for cheap or free so the promo works. I have never used tech support from these apps so whatever the developer makes off me at whatever price he is asking seems more than fair from my purchasing point of view. I enjoy the bundle deals because it opens me up to apps I would know nothing about. I would never purchase something like garage sale but when I loaded it from my purchase yesterday I saw some potential. I have wanted to buy Tech Tools but did not want to spend the $100. So like a lot of others I really wanted the high end apps cheap. I have a hard time thinking folks like the Tech Tool crowd would go into this deal if it were not worth their time. Same goes for the smaller software houses.

 

[tribulation]

Thank you MR!
I noticed this morning that you posted a note on the news story that MR is affiliated with the MU bundle thing. So disclosure has been made

I think that's what the main issue most of us had. that it made it in the news section like that. and I do hope you guys make some cash from it because as I said before you guys have been here for the longhaul and seriously deserve a return on your investment.

now on the RUMOR side of things..........
how about some inside information when the MU promo thing finishes up about how well it actually did and some of the terms for the devs this time around? or maybe even your cut? probably under NDA but being on a RUMOR site I can have a slight hope, can't I??

seriously though hearing some of the behind the scenes details of a thing like this would be really interesting to hear. maybe you could do a followup story with the permission of MU. just any details you can provide on how it is actually working, how much the developers are making, even ballpark figures just for the sole use of fun comparison. I can hope.

anyway good to see you step up and post the disclaimer part on there. the people talking about MR loosing credibility should rethink that now, the demi-gods included. I think they realized their mistake and took action quickly to rectify the situation, unlike many --- I won't name names --- but I so want to ---- sites. so here's my thumbs up to you, hope it turns out well and you guys get some money from it.

 

[eenu]

anyway good to see you step up and post the disclaimer part on there. the people talking about MR loosing credibility should rethink that now, the demi-gods included. I think they realized their mistake and took action quickly to rectify the situation

I agree it is much better that they have now disclosed it, however, it does not detract from the fact that it firstly happened and it took just under 24hrs to put right despite an obvious outrage from many users.

For me MR still lost a lot of its credibility for not disclosing this fact as it did with the Parallels deal, whether it has now disclosed it or not. I will always have a reservation about the reliability on news from them now wondering if its reported on fairly due to the fact they have maybe been paid to report on it. Arn's Apple Blog link he quotes above is an excellent example of this.

Anyway fairplay to Arn for finally changing the original post and making an apology regarding it.

 

[Jimmni]

I love MacUpdate and use it daily. I'm very keen to support the site. I've never been able to justify $20 for a membership, but I want one. This bundle seems to offer enough value, coupled with the membership, to make it worth buying. I need two things clarified first, though:

1. If I buy the bundle through MacHeist does that cut into MacUpdate's profit? I'd far rather support MacUpdate to MacHeist. I have no problem with MacHeist, but MacUpdate is an invaluable tool for me.

2. What are the upgrade paths offered? I'll be buying Leopard the very day it comes out, and don't fancy paying to upgrade all these apps. 3 months of usage from them doesn't seem very good value at all.

Thanks to anyone who can provide definitive answers!