MBA Processing Power

[KPOM]

So in that case, will it be better to just spring on a quad-core RMBP now? Or do you feel that whatever I could get for $1200-$1300 2-3 years from now would be better?

If resale is a concern, stick with a lower price now. Higher priced items tend to lose a bit more. The only difference might be between the completely decked out Air (i7/8GB/512) vs. the base Retina MacBook Pro (i7/8GB/256). With only $50 difference, I'd expect the base Retina MacBook Pro to hold its value a bit better because it's the base model of its kind, and because the Retina MacBook Pro is an all-new product while the 2012 MacBook Air is the third of its current design.

If the choice is between a $1200 MacBook Air or a $2200 Retina MacBook Pro, though, you'll be better off with the Air in 3 years time. You might get $400-$500 for that Air vs. $1000 for the Pro.

 

[Slivortal]

If resale is a concern, stick with a lower price now. Higher priced items tend to lose a bit more. The only difference might be between the completely decked out Air (i7/8GB/512) vs. the base Retina MacBook Pro (i7/8GB/256). With only $50 difference, I'd expect the base Retina MacBook Pro to hold its value a bit better because it's the base model of its kind, and because the Retina MacBook Pro is an all-new product while the 2012 MacBook Air is the third of its current design.

If the choice is between a $1200 MacBook Air or a $2200 Retina MacBook Pro, though, you'll be better off with the Air in 3 years time. You might get $400-$500 for that Air vs. $1000 for the Pro.

I'm not really worried about resale - I'm not a big fan of eBay/Craigslist. Rather, I'm worried more about which one will last the longest and be the most worth it after 2-3 years. I usually keep my old products, or sell/give them away to my family (for a nominal price, if anything).

If this computer somehow keeps me going for 5 years, it becomes only $400/year vs $240/year, in which case the MBPR could be worth it.

Ex. If I get an MBPR and then need to get another computer only 3 years from now, I spent $700+/year on that MBPR. On the other hand, if I get an MBA and get a computer 3 years from now, I only spent $400/year (or $1100/year and $600/year after two years, respectively).

Now, if the performance I get out of an MBPR is far better than the performance that I would've gotten out of the MBA, it will have been worth that extra $300 a year. But if performance is similar, I just spent $300/year on screen real estate that I really didn't need anyway.

Basically, I'm trying to:

1. Find a machine that can do what my current machine can't.

2. Make sure that I spend the least money on it, assuming equal efficiency.

 

[KPOM]

The Retina MacBook Pro is more likely to last for 5 years, particularly if you upgrade it to 16GB for $200. The quad-core processor, discrete GPU, and RAM would do a lot for longevity. You may run out of storage room, but external drives or third party replacements might work.

That said, the new MacBook Air ought to be good for quite a while, particularly if you get the 8GB model. Most tasks aren't processor intensive, and the faster SSD is quite a treat. It depends on what you do. If not for your extensive use of VMs, I'd say the Air would be fine for years to come. Mountain Lion is quicker than Lion, for instance, and Windows 8 has the same minimum requirements as Vista. We don't know what OS X 10.9 or Windows 9 will bring, and Apple has been making notebooks "obsolete" a bit quicker than in the past (Mountain Lion drops compatibility for the original MacBook Air, for instance, and most other Macs built before 2008).

I'm guessing it will be at least 3 years before Apple releases an OS that is incompatible with the current MacBook Air, and perhaps longer. At some point they may require a quad-core processor, but probably not until well after all their Macs are quad-core.

 

[Slivortal]

The Retina MacBook Pro is more likely to last for 5 years, particularly if you upgrade it to 16GB for $200. The quad-core processor, discrete GPU, and RAM would do a lot for longevity. You may run out of storage room, but external drives or third party replacements might work.

That said, the new MacBook Air ought to be good for quite a while, particularly if you get the 8GB model. Most tasks aren't processor intensive, and the faster SSD is quite a treat. It depends on what you do. If not for your extensive use of VMs, I'd say the Air would be fine for years to come. Mountain Lion is quicker than Lion, for instance, and Windows 8 has the same minimum requirements as Vista. We don't know what OS X 10.9 or Windows 9 will bring, and Apple has been making notebooks "obsolete" a bit quicker than in the past (Mountain Lion drops compatibility for the original MacBook Air, for instance).

I'm guessing it will be at least 3 years before Apple releases an OS that is incompatible with the current MacBook Air, and perhaps longer. At some point they may require a quad-core processor, but probably not until well after all their Macs are quad-core.

The thing is, I don't necessarily need a laptop that would last for 5 years. The reason I bring up the time thing is that in just 3 years, a MBA would have cost me $400 a year. It would take an RMBP 5+ years to cost me $400 a year. Would it be better to get an MBA and upgrade it in three years or an RMBP and upgrade it in 5 years?

The RMBP is far better than an MBA at the moment; however, it would have to remain a powerhouse in years 4 and 5 in order for it to obtain the same sort of long-term value I would get from an MBA. Of course, this assumes that the MBA would fit my needs over the next few years as good as an MBPR would.

So, if I get this straight, an MBA should fly off of just 1 VM and possibly still work well off of 2 VMs. While the MBA is not built for games, it should be able to play simple titles such as Portal and Portal 2 if I really wanted, correct?

On the other hand, the MBPR, with a quad core, should handle almost anything I could possibly throw at it (at the cost of an extra $1000+)?

 

[KPOM]

So, if I get this straight, an MBA should fly off of just 1 VM and possibly still work well off of 2 VMs. While the MBA is not built for games, it should be able to play simple titles such as Portal and Portal 2 if I really wanted, correct?

On the other hand, the MBPR, with a quad core, should handle almost anything I could possibly throw at it (at the cost of an extra $1000+)?

Yes, that's how I'd characterize the current situation. Note that if you can get $400 for the MacBook Air in 3 years, assuming you pay about $1300 including tax for the 13" with 8GB, it will cost you about $300/year. The Retina MacBook Pro would need to be worth $1500 to cost you the same (since you'll also pay close to twice as much in sales tax).

 

[kobyh15]

I'd go base 13" Air with 8 GB. Upgrade in 3 years. It's the most cost-effective solution.

 

[Slivortal]

I'd go base 13" Air with 8 GB. Upgrade in 3 years. It's the most cost-effective solution.

Do you have any experience with virtualization on the MBA? Because this needs quite a bit more processing power than just text editing and games. Also, I'd prefer it if it wouldn't get to well over 100F doing so.

Typing this from an extremely hot and laggy 2.53 GHz C2D '09 MBP (and with only 1 VM up).

 

[jsolares]

Do you have any experience with virtualization on the MBA? Because this needs quite a bit more processing power than just text editing and games.

Typing this from an extremely hot and laggy 2.53 GHz C2D '09 MBP (and with only 1 VM up).

it only takes more power if what you run inside the virtual machines use a lot of CPU.

i use a 2011 MBA with a Virtual Machine with Windows Server 2008 R2 for developing with Visual Studio, and it runs better than on my iMac due to the SSD.

 

[Slivortal]

it only takes more power if what you run inside the virtual machines use a lot of CPU.

i use a 2011 MBA with a Virtual Machine with Windows Server 2008 R2 for developing with Visual Studio, and it runs better than on my iMac due to the SSD.

I'm running a few browser windows, a few programming utilities, some Terminals (running medium intensity scripts), System Monitor, and a few directory windows in each. And it's not working well.

 

[KPOM]

Do you have any experience with virtualization on the MBA? Because this needs quite a bit more processing power than just text editing and games. Also, I'd prefer it if it wouldn't get to well over 100F doing so.

Typing this from an extremely hot and laggy 2.53 GHz C2D '09 MBP (and with only 1 VM up).

it only takes more power if what you run inside the virtual machines use a lot of CPU.

i use a 2011 MBA with a Virtual Machine with Windows Server 2008 R2 for developing with Visual Studio, and it runs better than on my iMac due to the SSD.

I run Windows 7 64-bit from within my 2012 MacBook Air with 8GB and it runs fine. It ran fine on my 2011 with 4GB RAM. For the heck of it, I installed OS X 10.6 Server in a VM, though all I usually ever run are Quicken and/or Internet Explorer from within the VM. It was slow attempting to run it at the same time as Windows on my 2011 (I think RAM was the issue). I haven't tried it yet on the 2012.

The SSD helps a lot. With 1 VM sometimes the fan will kick in eventually with little in the background, but it sometimes does that when the VM isn't running, so I don't regard it as a big deal. Based on my usage, I usually exceed 4GB only when I have a VM running.

So the bottom line is that today, the 2012 MacBook Air should be fine for what you want it for. It will probably work well next year and the year after that. The Retina MacBook Pro may work well for another year or two, but in 4 years time both will likely feel "old" and may not support Apple's latest operating system.

 

[jsolares]

I'm running a few browser windows, a few programming utilities, some Terminals (running medium intensity scripts), System Monitor, and a few directory windows in each. And it's not working well.

If you're in the US take advantage of the 14day return policy, go buy the i5/8GB 2012 Air and copy your virtual machine over, if it works great, great, if not return the MBA

 

[Slivortal]

I run Windows 7 64-bit from within my 2012 MacBook Air with 8GB and it runs fine. It ran fine on my 2011 with 4GB RAM. For the heck of it, I installed OS X 10.6 Server in a VM, though all I usually ever run are Quicken and/or Internet Explorer from within the VM. It was slow attempting to run it at the same time as Windows on my 2011 (I think RAM was the issue). I haven't tried it yet on the 2012.

The SSD helps a lot. With 1 VM sometimes the fan will kick in eventually with little in the background, but it sometimes does that when the VM isn't running, so I don't regard it as a big deal. Based on my usage, I usually exceed 4GB only when I have a VM running.

So the bottom line is that today, the 2012 MacBook Air should be fine for what you want it for. It will probably work well next year and the year after that. The Retina MacBook Pro may work well for another year or two, but in 4 years time both will likely feel "old" and may not support Apple's latest operating system.

Out of curiosity, do you run the i5 or the i7?

If you're in the US take advantage of the 14day return policy, go buy the i5/8GB 2012 Air and copy your virtual machine over, if it works great, great, if not return the MBA

Probably what I'll end up doing (although I'll probably start from scratch - I like starting fresh on my new computers). Buying online and having to return it through the mail is hassle some, though - to say the least.

 

[jsolares]

Probably what I'll end up doing (although I'll probably start from scratch - I like starting fresh on my new computers). Buying online and having to return it through the mail is hassle some, though - to say the least.

At least you can actually do it, theres no apple stores down here, just resellers, and unfortunately they don't have the same policies, you can return it, but not for money back just store credit :S

 

[brentsg]

So, if I get this straight, an MBA should fly off of just 1 VM and possibly still work well off of 2 VMs. While the MBA is not built for games, it should be able to play simple titles such as Portal and Portal 2 if I really wanted, correct?

On the other hand, the MBPR, with a quad core, should handle almost anything I could possibly throw at it (at the cost of an extra $1000+)?

I usually work from a hex core Mac Pro and I'll run anywhere from 1-4 virtual machines with 16GB RAM. When I had my old C2D late '08 MBP with 4GB RAM it sucked a ton with 2 VMs.

I have a 2011 13" MBP base model that's been upgraded with an SSD and 8GB RAM. I'll toss some of my VMs on there later and see how it feels with 2+ running. That should be similar.

 

[KPOM]

Out of curiosity, do you run the i5 or the i7?

I have the i7. Note that this year's i5 is about the same speed as last year's i7. As often as I upgrade, I'd be better off sticking with base models, but since I bought the i7 last year I decided to stick with the i7. If Haswell tempts me next year I'll consider the i5, though I'll see if I can hold off until the 2014 MacBook Air this time (watch Apple add a Retina Display next year, though ).

 

[brentsg]

Probably what I'll end up doing (although I'll probably start from scratch - I like starting fresh on my new computers). Buying online and having to return it through the mail is hassle some, though - to say the least.

A significant point of virtual machines is to have a sandboxed environments that are hardware independent. I'm not sure why you'd start over.. it's not like it's the main OS on the computer.

 

[Slivortal]

I usually work from a hex core Mac Pro and I'll run anywhere from 1-4 virtual machines with 16GB RAM. When I had my old C2D late '08 MBP with 4GB RAM it sucked a ton with 2 VMs.

I have a 2011 13" MBP base model that's been upgraded with an SSD and 8GB RAM. I'll toss some of my VMs on there later and see how it feels with 2+ running. That should be similar.

Your late '08 MBP's probably a pretty good approximation of how my current MBP's working right now.

Thanks, that should be a big help - although how does the 2011 MBP's processor compare to the MBA's ULV?

A significant point of virtual machines is to have a sandboxed environments that are hardware independent. I'm not sure why you'd start over.. it's not like it's the main OS on the computer.

Oh, I often create Virtual Machines for individual projects (or use snapshots cleverly). I like the concept of being able to create whole environments for projects, as well as being able to easily sandbox in case of accidentally deleting system components (a lot of what I do now is kind of playing around).

Though you're right, porting them may be a good idea (they are projects, after all).

 

[KPOM]

Your late '08 MBP's probably a pretty good approximation of how my current MBP's working right now.

Thanks, that should be a big help - although how does the 2011 MBP's processor compare to the MBA's ULV?

The base 2.4GHz Core i5 in last year's was about 15-20% faster than the i7 in the top-of-the-line Air last year. This year's i7 should be about the same as last year's base MacBook Pro.

 

[KPOM]

I have a 2011 13" MBP base model that's been upgraded with an SSD and 8GB RAM. I'll toss some of my VMs on there later and see how it feels with 2+ running. That should be similar.

Thanks, that should be a big help - although how does the 2011 MBP's processor compare to the MBA's ULV?

I just ran the Windows Experience Index test on my Win 7 64-bit VM in Parallels Desktop 7 with OS X 10.6 Server running in another VM. It was acceptable. The fan hit about 4000rpm, but wasn't too hot. It actually got warmer just with the 10.6 Server VM downloading and installing a bunch of software updates (it's been a while since I fired it up).

 

[kobyh15]

Do you have any experience with virtualization on the MBA? Because this needs quite a bit more processing power than just text editing and games. Also, I'd prefer it if it wouldn't get to well over 100F doing so.

Typing this from an extremely hot and laggy 2.53 GHz C2D '09 MBP (and with only 1 VM up).

Nope. I have a 2011 13" Pro with the 2.7 i7, an Intel 320 SSD, and 8 Gb. I can run Windows 7 64-bit in Parallels very easily.

 

[brentsg]

Sorry for the delay.

I just loaded up 3 of my WinXP VMs and launched them at the same time. I also opened some browser windows, Outlook, Excel, etc.. just some general stuff.

I then started a compile of Handbrake for OSX as well. CPU usage was pretty much nailed, I got a very minor amount of page-out on the RAM side. Fans were definitely spinning up.

I wasn't doing anything crazy like encoding videos with this, but I never felt like it sucked. Generally I'd say you would want to keep it at 1-2 VMs just to keep things snappy but 3 wasn't a bad experience at all.

Specs: Sandy Bridge i5 @ 2.3GHz, 13" MBP
8GB RAM, 300GB Intel SSD