Microsoft Demos Free Windows 10 Update, Debuts New 'Project Spartan' Web Browser

[Elvergun]

I see that a lot of you are in denial. That's ok. I am sure you also loved Windows 8, the worst OS ever.

So...if we don't agree with you then we are in denial?

I agree that Windows 8 is really bad (perhaps the worst ever), but that does not mean that Windows 10 is also going to be a bad OS. Vista was one of the worst ever...and then Windows 7 came out. When Windows 7 was released many of the OSx features you listed were not available (or not yet mature) on a Mac.

For Windows users Windows 10 is a nice upgrade. Everybody else have zero reasons to switch over. Everything else is just hype.

You seem to think that your tastes and opinions should be those of everybody else. I have a Mac, an iPhone and an iPad and will not switch over right now, but when one of those devices dies, I have a lot of reasons to switch over (it ain't just hype).

Microsoft wants people to love Windows. The truth is, this is not happening.

The truth is that you are offering yet another opinion.

 

[petvas]

So...if we don't agree with you then we are in denial?

I agree that Windows 8 is really bad (perhaps the worst ever), but that does not mean that Windows 10 is also going to be a bad OS. Vista was one of the worst ever...and then Windows 7 came out. When Windows 7 came out many of the OSx features you listed were not available (or not yet mature) on a Mac.


You seem to think that your tastes and opinions should be those of everybody else. I have a Mac, an iPhone and a iPad and will not switch over right now, but when one of those devices dies, have a lot of reasons to switch over (it ain't just hype).


The truth is that you are offering yet another opinion.

I didn't say that Windows 10 will be bad. The contrary.

 

[tdale]

I see that a lot of you are in denial. That's ok. I am sure you also loved Windows 8, the worst OS ever.

For Windows users Windows 10 is a nice upgrade. Everybody else have zero reasons to switch over. Everything else is just hype.

Microsoft wants people to love Windows. The truth is, this is not happening.

Man. You are in denial, as your love of Apple and your hate of MS says it all. You cannot sit down and look at the pros and cons of all, and discuss accordingly. Check my posts in this thread. Some may appear that I like Apple, some may appear that I like MS. I can discuss what I think is good, what I think is bad, regardless of the platform.

The worst OS was Vista, 8 was a change that took many by surprise. This ok, Vista became 7, 8 became 10, sorted.

Read the thread(s) on Apple quality. Many there are sick of ongoing issues, positive thoughts there for Windows. Why has Apple having such issues and bugs and failures, when they control the OS and hardware it sits on? Given the hardware that runs with Windows, their bugs and issues is far far less than Apples.

But you need to learn stuff and learn how to discuss stuff, being an iLover blinds you. I am an iLiker

 

[petvas]

Man. You are in denial, as your love of Apple and your hate of MS says it all. You cannot sit down and look at the pros and cons of all, and discuss accordingly. Check my posts in this thread. Some may appear that I like Apple, some may appear that I like MS. I can discuss what I think is good, what I think is bad, regardless of the platform.

The worst OS was Vista, 8 was a change that took many by surprise. This ok, Vista became 7, 8 became 10, sorted.

Read the thread(s) on Apple quality. Many there are sick of ongoing issues, positive thoughts there for Windows. Why has Apple having such issues and bugs and failures, when they control the OS and hardware it sits on? Given the hardware that runs with Windows, their bugs and issues is far far less than Apples.

But you need to learn stuff and learn how to discuss stuff, being an iLover blinds you. I am an iLiker

Who says I hate Microsoft? I just don't like the direction they took with Windows 8. I wrote many times that Windows 10 will be a much better OS and I also said that Hololens and the Surface Hub look good. Does this sound like hatred to you?

 

[tdale]

Who says I hate Microsoft? I just don't like the direction they took with Windows 8. I wrote many times that Windows 10 will be a much better OS and I also said that Hololens and the Surface Hub look good. Does this sound like hatred to you?

Your posts are anti MS and pro Apple. Period. And your opinions are stated as facts. Period.

 

[ani4ani]

There is always something that can be done, but I don't think the issue here is the desktop computer. It's mobile. Microsoft has lost the war on mobile to Apple and Google, and that is why Microsoft has become irrelevant for a lot of people.
Windows 10 is a welcome addition to modern OSes, but it should happen 3 years ago. Better late than never I would say..
You are right though, an OS X user has no reason to switch to Windows. Not one.

It is just coincidence that Parallels is one of the top selling Mac software packages?

 

[tdale]

Originally Posted by petvas View Post
There is always something that can be done, but I don't think the issue here is the desktop computer. It's mobile. Microsoft has lost the war on mobile to Apple and Google, and that is why Microsoft has become irrelevant for a lot of people.
Windows 10 is a welcome addition to modern OSes, but it should happen 3 years ago. Better late than never I would say..
You are right though, an OS X user has no reason to switch to Windows. Not one.

MS was not in the mobile war, they left it too late. App store being the primary cause as there is nothing wrong with WP, nor Lumia.

MS is not relevant for a lot of people as WP didn't take off? Unrelated.

Yes W10 should have happened 3 years ago, as should have an iPhone with a proper size, like everyone else.

Switching to Windows? Ok, here is a few.
Wifi, an old tech that just works
Windows Explorer
Software not made for OS X
Bugs and issues in each annual new OS version
Taking software and reducing features

For more, read the several Apple Quality threads

 

[petvas]

Your posts are anti MS and pro Apple. Period. And your opinions are stated as facts. Period.

So I criticize Microsoft in a Mac forum and I am a MS hater? WI wonder sometimes, where are the other Mac fans?

Criticizing someone doesn't mean hatred..

 

[tdale]

So I criticize Microsoft in a Mac forum and I am a MS hater? WI wonder sometimes, where are the other Mac fans?

Criticizing someone doesn't mean hatred..

If it's one way and not objective it does

 

[flyinmac]

the problem is a lot of your points are not actually true, which might be influencing your opinion. many of those things you listed are antiquated.

----------



I will agree on those points for sure.

Windows 8 was a UI nightmare. changing settings in Metro didnt' change its behaviour in desktop and vice versa. Basically forcing you two seperate sets of configurations... who ever thought that idea should be flogged. Windows 7 UI for desktops is still my favourite.

And yes, chocie is good, but system builders don't seem to get that your primary setup should be easy to get to. And then After the fact if you want to customize let them do so. Goign to dell.ca and being presented with like 15 different "inspiron" laptops, with little description between them all is confusing for a user. The apple purchase experience is better.

You won't even convince the Mac buyers with that argument. Consider all the complaints here in mac rumors that people cannot get the machine that matches their actual needs from Apple. With Apple, you have a choice of buying below your needs or way above your needs. That is worse.

Consider those who need a simple computer like the mini, but with slightly better specs. They are often left with the only option to be either buying an extremely high priced Mac Pro that is both out of budget and more machine than they need, or buying a Windows PC which will meet their needs and budget. That is where the PC companies excel in meeting budget and specs by offering so many choices.

And those who try to claim that said users should just get an iMac, fail to understand that the iMac is a machine for a totally different market than Mac mini and Mac Pro buyers. The iMac has no business as a mid-range option between those 2 machines. It is going to appeal to an entirely different group of people. Apple fails to realize this, which is why we have such huge gaps in their product line, and buyers beg and plead for more options.

The windows market had it right. They offer choices that allow you to buy at any level you need. Apple leaves huge gaps in their product line, and tries to force users into one of those limited offering. Like forcing square pegs into glossy thin round holes.

 

[Michael Goff]

The surface hub looks really nice. Apart from that everything you mentioned is not new. The Xbox integration is interesting to people that have an Xbox. Playstation owners don't care.

Since when is a minimalist browser an innovation? Have you ever used Chrome or Safari?

The adaptive UI is only needed if you want to use the flawed surface devices. The problem is that they are hybrid. A compromise that doesn't work.

Even the holographic things leave a lot of questions. I doubt Microsoft has the ability to execute.

Wait, wait. Xbox doesn't matter because you 'have to have an Xbox', but some of your points relied on you having an iPad or iPhone. How is that even a fair comparison?

 

[Elvergun]

Switching to Windows? Ok, here is a few.
Wifi, an old tech that just works
Windows Explorer
Software not made for OS X
Bugs and issues in each annual new OS version
Taking software and reducing features

For more, read the several Apple Quality threads

My girlfriend is a graphic designer and she only uses Macs...and every time she upgrades her OS (she upgraded to Mavericks a couple of weeks ago) she complains to me about how they made her computer less usable. She believes that Apple tweaks or changes things that didn't need to be fixed, and introduces a bunch of bugs in the process. I guess that is why I hated Windows 8 -- they changed the things that were working fine (finally, after Vista) and introduced a bunch of half-baked features that would not benefit a desktop user. Hopefully Windows 10 will be a better experience...and if not, I'll stick to Macs.

If I do switch to Windows 10 when I purchase my next computer, I can also see myself switching to a Windows phone (for the the integration...and just to play around with something new). Those who say that iPhone and\or Mac users would never switch to something else are delusional fanboys. Normal people do not pledge allegiance to corporations. People can be loyal to a brand, but that brand must continue to provide value and innovation in order to keep their customers happy. Just look at what happened to BlackBerry.

 

[Keirasplace]

You won't even convince the Mac buyers with that argument. Consider all the complaints here in mac rumors that people cannot get the machine that matches their actual needs from Apple. With Apple, you have a choice of buying below your needs or way above your needs. That is worse.

Consider those who need a simple computer like the mini, but with slightly better specs. They are often left with the only option to be either buying an extremely high priced Mac Pro that is both out of budget and more machine than they need, or buying a Windows PC which will meet their needs and budget. That is where the PC companies excel in meeting budget and specs by offering so many choices.

And those who try to claim that said users should just get an iMac, fail to understand that the iMac is a machine for a totally different market than Mac mini and Mac Pro buyers. The iMac has no business as a mid-range option between those 2 machines. It is going to appeal to an entirely different group of people. Apple fails to realize this, which is why we have such huge gaps in their product line, and buyers beg and plead for more options.

The windows market had it right. They offer choices that allow you to buy at any level you need. Apple leaves huge gaps in their product line, and tries to force users into one of those limited offering. Like forcing square pegs into glossy thin round holes.

You forgot ONE THING. There are dozens of PC makers offering this array of choices. No matter how much Apple tries, they can't match this offer and doing so would be pure folly.

If you look at one maker, the choice restricts substantially and I'm telling you the quality is often abysmal (to put it lightly). You're not getting products of Apple quality (when buying similar products to what Apple sells).

If you buy a $500 dollar Acer, Lenovo, whatever, you can't really expand anything (crap power supply) and almost no space. You have to get a full tower with a decent power supply, which are getting rare as snow in july in the low end bracket, to expand anything.

At the Mac mini range, expandability is basically limited to disk and memory and low profile, low power cards (sound or controller cards) in low end Windows machines. You have to swap out the disk cause there's not really room for a second one (they don't even give you second brackets).

Might as well build it yourself for that price and get a full tower with a decent power supply.

Most PC Oem"s have very low margins; possibly because their manufacturing/logistics is less streamlined than Apple because they have to many assembly lines and parts. They can't differentiate themselves because all run the same software.

Apple is were it is now because it doesn't cater to every whim. Doing so in the mid 1990s is what almost led them to bankruptcy.

 

[flyinmac]

It is just coincidence that Parallels is one of the top selling Mac software packages?

Not coincidence at all... It's just that Windows makes the Mac more useful to them and is so versatile that it will run on anything.

What's funny is that Windows can support nearly every machine made by numerous companies going back 15+ years, and Apple can't even manage to support more than a handful of their most recent models. I'll be able to run windows 10 on my machines from 1999 and 2000. Yet my Mac Pro 2006 (built and purchased in late 2007) lost support from Apple in 2012. Despite Apple only having 5 mac models to support, they abandoned supporting my machine with current OS X versions only 5 years after they assembled and shipped my machine to me.

On the other hand, Microsoft is able to support and continues to support thousands of different model machines from hundreds of manufactures and system builders (not even counting the home built models) going back more than 15+ years.

When Apple can support all of their own machines (at least all Intel macs as that is still a small number of models to support) then maybe they'll have some bragging rights as to how great OS X is.

When they can support every computer made in the last 15 years (regardless of manufacturer) then perhaps they can claim to be as skilled as Microsoft in their coding.

OS X will always be a minority market as long as Apple continues on this path. Even Apple realizes this, otherwise they'd only make iPhones and iPads and iPods to work with OS X.

----------

You forgot ONE THING. There are dozens of PC makers offering this array of choices. No matter how much Apple tries, they can't match this offer and doing so would be pure folly.

If you look at one maker, the choice restricts substantially and I'm telling you the quality is often abysmal (to put it lightly). You're not getting products of Apple quality (when buying similar products to what Apple sells).

If you buy a $500 dollar Acer, Lenovo, whatever, you can't really expand anything (crap power supply) and almost no space. You have to get a full tower with a decent power supply, which are getting rare as snow in july in the low end bracket, to expand anything.

At the Mac mini range, expandability is basically limited to disk and memory and low profile, low power cards (sound or controller cards) in low end Windows machines. You have to swap out the disk cause there's not really room for a second one (they don't even give you second brackets).

Might as well build it yourself for that price and get a full tower with a decent power supply.

Most PC Oem"s have very low margins; possibly because their manufacturing/logistics is less streamlined than Apple because they have to many assembly lines and parts. They can't differentiate themselves because all run the same software

That is the price of competing in a high demand market. Lots of buyers, bring lots of competitors. Lots of competitors bring tighter margins. But, they sell tons of machines with tight margins adding up to respectable profits.

Selling fewer machines with higher profits is also fine, if that's the path you choose. But, it's not a path that will lead Apple to dominance in the computer industry. Simply put, Apple failed too early in the game to establish the Macintosh market. It will always be a minority.

Actually, the Apple quality argument is pure myth. I've had more Macs die in their first 2 weeks than I've ever seen with any other manufacturer (including cheap $200 Acer machines).

You're talking with someone here who has had responsibility for literally hundreds of thousands of computers over the years. Just my own personal purchases would be in the near thousands. I've been in this industry since the beginning, and watched it evolve and had my hands on nearly every machine type and brand, etc. Including many that you've likely never heard of. I remember the industry that saw numerous incompatible platforms (PC's and Apple's were small players back then).

And Apples computers have been the only ones I've ever had to return for total failure and DOA. I've had macs that went through dozens of repairs in their first couple months before I just wrote them off and sold them before they could die again. It's crazy.

By comparison, I have never sent any PC (or for that matter even any other platform computers) back to its manufacturer, or taken it to a shop for repairs. Literally the only computers I've ever had die or arrive dead on arrival have been Apple's.

 

[flyinmac]

Apple is were it is now because it doesn't cater to every whim. Doing so in the mid 1990s is what almost led them to bankruptcy.

And, actually, what nearly killed Apple in the 80's and 90's is the same mistake they are making now... Trying to force people into particular machines by limiting options.

In the 1980's they had a very popular line of computers. The Apple II series. And, they developed the Macintosh in hopes of capturing a different market.

But, they couldn't get enough people to buy the Macintosh, and the Apple II users were not switching either.

The Apple II series was hugely popular, and Apple thought that if they abandoned the Apple II series and discontinued it, then users would have no choice but to stop buying Apple II machines and begin buying Macintosh machines. But, Apple gambled wrong....

Instead of switching to the Macintosh, Apple II users switched to IBM clones. What did they have to lose? They already had to switch to an entirely new platform, rebuild software libraries, etc...

Much too late in the game, Apple hoped to expand the Macintosh market by using the clone model that made the PC industry so huge. They thought that if they could grow the market, that their profits would benefit from an increased user base to sell to.

Unfortunately, unlike IBM, it didn't work for Apple. Apple found out that rather than expanding the Macintosh market, the market size remained the same, and their customers went after the cheaper clones. But, having cheaper options available didn't bring new buyers into the Macintosh market. So, Apple found themselves in the same small market competing with cheaper clones.

These two gambles backfired huge on Apple. And, it nearly killed them.

Apple is on the same path by limiting options available to customers. Customers want affordable Mac Mini options that have quad core processors, better graphics processors, etc. Yet Apple says you have to either buy our crippled mini, or our Mac Pro which is more machine than you need.

If Apple introduced a mid-range Mac that had a desktop quad core processor, a dedicated graphics adapter, and expandable memory and replaceable hard drives, it would sell like crazy.

But, the gaps they leave right now leave customers looking at alternatives like Windows PC's. Despite the hype, the iMac is not a machine which is enticing to these buyers. The iMac is a machine which is suitable to those who want or need an All-in-One.... It is not a mid-range machine that properly fills the gap between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro.

Having too many options is not what nearly killed Apple. Attempting to force loyal customers into another machine that they didn't want nearly killed them. Trying to use clones to expand a market nearly cemented their death because it proved that price was not the reason people were disinterested in the Mac market, and Apple couldn't compete within their own market.

The fact is, the Mac market is small. It's not going to grow on the current path. Macintosh machines are headed towards being an also ran. And, Apple will have to change course if it seriously wants to capture a majority of the computer market. But, Apple clearly sees the writing on the wall. They aren't competing in the computer industry anymore. They are showing signs of fading. They're betting their future on iOS devices. And, likely they will discontinue the Macintosh machines in time.

They have a nearly insurmountable obstacle to take over the computer industry. It'll never happen on the current path.

 

[petvas]

If it's one way and not objective it does

I criticize Apple for a lot of things too, but this is not the topic of the thread..

Every opinion is subjective, so you must hate Apple...This is not even an argument. I think you should be more open to criticism. Microsoft has done a lot of mistakes and it seems that they are trying to correct a lot of them with Windows 10. That doesn't put them in front of the game, but on the right course to become relevant again. They lost their importance when they lost the mobile wars to Apple and Google..
I said before that I don't see how this will change with Windows 10, especially on Phones. What is the feature we heard about last week that will make people switch to Windows based phones? We heard nothing. Only that the background is behind the tiles..and that we get Microsoft Office, which we already have on iOS.
Windows Phone must become much better than the competition in order to start getting some traction.

On the desktop front, there is no war to fight. Microsoft has already won that war years ago. It's about making the desktop important again and correcting the abomination called Windows 8. Microsoft is not completely admitting its failure, and that is my problem with that. I wish they stopped talking about hybrids and how great they are.
Who wants to use a surface as a tablet? It's too big! The same goes for the iPad Pro, in case that's real..Compromise is always needed when designing a new device, but too much compromise makes the user experience suffer. At the moment this is what's happening with all hybrids. Windows 10 is supposed to make this work better, but it cannot change the compromises the hardware was designed with, to satisfy the hybrid requirement.
But of course, I am a hater, so please stay in denial.

When Microsoft finds a way to overcome the compromises that need to be made in order to create a hybrid device, then I will find them useful. Their idea is good, but their execution is bad. It's not Microsoft's fault though, we just don't have that kind of technology yet to support hybrid devices in an optimal way..

Somebody else mentioned Parallels and why it's number one product sold. Windows is useful for a lot of things that a Mac doesn't cover. I also use VMWare because of many reasons:

• I want to check the Windows world too
• I need to use Visio every other month, because of my work. I could use my windows laptop that I have from my job, but I prefer to use Windows on a Mac. They look better.
• Other people might have some other software need that the Mac doesn't cover. It's great that we have the choice..
• Most people need software for their work, because Microsoft is the number one company when it comes to business. For private use Mac users don't need Windows at all (unless they want to game seriously - I prefer to play on my PlayStation 4)

----------

Wait, wait. Xbox doesn't matter because you 'have to have an Xbox', but some of your points relied on you having an iPad or iPhone. How is that even a fair comparison?

It's pretty easy to explain actually. I want to use the tools I think they are the best for the job. iPhones are the best smartphones for me, so I appreciate the integration.
I also believe that the PlayStation 4 is better than the XBOX One as a game console, so I don't care about the XBOX. I am sure a lot of people think that, judging by the sales of the consoles the last 12 months.


Another general comment: I am not the only one saying Windows 8 sucks, the surface is a failure and that Windows Phone is lame. The market does! Just look at the numbers and the sales of the aforementioned products..
The market will speak again about Windows 10 and I believe it will make the OS a successful product.

 

[Renzatic]

Another general comment: I am not the only one saying Windows 8 sucks, the surface is a failure and that Windows Phone is lame. The market does! Just look at the numbers and the sales of the aforementioned products..
The market will speak again about Windows 10 and I believe it will make the OS a successful product.

Uh oh. As an Apple fan, you should know better than to make the mistake of equating popularity with quality. Windows 8 is only a failure relative to its predecessors. Despite the fact many people generally hate it, for reasons entirely real or completely imagined, it has moved more PCs than Apple has Macs.

This fact says nothing about the quality of either.

Also, only the Surface RT can be considered a dud. The Pros are doing pretty well for themselves.

 

[Michael Goff]

I criticize Apple for a lot of things too, but this is not the topic of the thread..

Every opinion is subjective, so you must hate Apple...This is not even an argument. I think you should be more open to criticism. Microsoft has done a lot of mistakes and it seems that they are trying to correct a lot of them with Windows 10. That doesn't put them in front of the game, but on the right course to become relevant again. They lost their importance when they lost the mobile wars to Apple and Google..
I said before that I don't see how this will change with Windows 10, especially on Phones. What is the feature we heard about last week that will make people switch to Windows based phones? We heard nothing. Only that the background is behind the tiles..and that we get Microsoft Office, which we already have on iOS.
Windows Phone must become much better than the competition in order to start getting some traction.

On the desktop front, there is no war to fight. Microsoft has already won that war years ago. It's about making the desktop important again and correcting the abomination called Windows 8. Microsoft is not completely admitting its failure, and that is my problem with that. I wish they stopped talking about hybrids and how great they are.
Who wants to use a surface as a tablet? It's too big! The same goes for the iPad Pro, in case that's real..Compromise is always needed when designing a new device, but too much compromise makes the user experience suffer. At the moment this is what's happening with all hybrids. Windows 10 is supposed to make this work better, but it cannot change the compromises the hardware was designed with, to satisfy the hybrid requirement.
But of course, I am a hater, so please stay in denial.

When Microsoft finds a way to overcome the compromises that need to be made in order to create a hybrid device, then I will find them useful. Their idea is good, but their execution is bad. It's not Microsoft's fault though, we just don't have that kind of technology yet to support hybrid devices in an optimal way..

Somebody else mentioned Parallels and why it's number one product sold. Windows is useful for a lot of things that a Mac doesn't cover. I also use VMWare because of many reasons:

• I want to check the Windows world too
• I need to use Visio every other month, because of my work. I could use my windows laptop that I have from my job, but I prefer to use Windows on a Mac. They look better.
• Other people might have some other software need that the Mac doesn't cover. It's great that we have the choice..
• Most people need software for their work, because Microsoft is the number one company when it comes to business. For private use Mac users don't need Windows at all (unless they want to game seriously - I prefer to play on my PlayStation 4)

----------



It's pretty easy to explain actually. I want to use the tools I think they are the best for the job. iPhones are the best smartphones for me, so I appreciate the integration.
I also believe that the PlayStation 4 is better than the XBOX One as a game console, so I don't care about the XBOX. I am sure a lot of people think that, judging by the sales of the consoles the last 12 months.


Another general comment: I am not the only one saying Windows 8 sucks, the surface is a failure and that Windows Phone is lame. The market does! Just look at the numbers and the sales of the aforementioned products..
The market will speak again about Windows 10 and I believe it will make the OS a successful product.

The market has spoken! Android is better than iOS and OS X is inferior to Windows! So says your bad logic.

 

[petvas]

Uh oh. As an Apple fan, you should know better than to make the mistake of equating popularity with quality. Windows 8 is only a failure relative to its predecessors. Despite the fact many people generally hate it, for reasons entirely real or completely imagined, it has moved more PCs than Apple has Macs.

This fact says nothing about the quality of either.

Also, only the Surface RT can be considered a dud. The Pros are doing pretty well for themselves.

That's because of the OEM model.

The Surface Pro is still not making any money so I don't understand how you can call it a success.

http://m.windowscentral.com/report-claims-microsoft-still-losing-money-surface-tablets

 

[Renzatic]

That's because of the OEM model.

You could say that it's because of a wider distribution model, or because the market prefers it? I can buy a Mac in the same place I can buy a cheap Chromebook, after all.

Do you have an answer for it? Will that answer tell you anything about the quality of that product?

The Surface Pro is still not making any money so I don't understand how you can call it a success.

http://m.windowscentral.com/report-claims-microsoft-still-losing-money-surface-tablets

That was from August, when the SP3 was still gaining traction, and they were still feeling the sting from the RT tanking. MS isn't making iPhone money from it, but it's very quickly becoming a popular niche item, generating a billion in revenue for them.

Of course revenue isn't profit, but still, it's generated a billion bucks, and is becoming more popular due to word of mouth. Ain't half bad.

 

[ani4ani]

That's because of the OEM model.

The Surface Pro is still not making any money so I don't understand how you can call it a success.

http://m.windowscentral.com/report-claims-microsoft-still-losing-money-surface-tablets

It is all about timing; they could be losing money, if all the development cost etc are included in the evaluation. Remember this article claims the position, since only Microsoft knows the actual situation. I would hazard a guess that they are pretty pleased with the SP3 and the relative performance against previous models, enough anyhow to keep investing it. It is worthy of mention that the Surface line was also to demonstrate the need/attractiveness to other OEMs of windows tablets; on that score, it should be considered a success.

 

[petvas]

You could say that it's because of a wider distribution model, or because the market prefers it? I can buy a Mac in the same place I can buy a cheap Chromebook, after all.

Do you have an answer for it? Will that answer tell you anything about the quality of that product?



That was from August, when the SP3 was still gaining traction, and they were still feeling the sting from the RT tanking. MS isn't making iPhone money from it, but it's very quickly becoming a popular niche item, generating a billion in revenue for them.

Of course revenue isn't profit, but still, it's generated a billion bucks, and is becoming more popular due to word of mouth. Ain't half bad.

There is a whole ecosystem, a PC market out there, where Windows plays the primary role. Apple doesn't allow licensing OS X to other OEMs. So, yes, one of the reasons is that there are thousand of companies out there that make money by selling PCs with Windows preinstalled.
Apple has a niche market and that won't change any time soon (if ever).

 

[petvas]

Yesterday I had to spent the whole day configuring an MSI Touch based all-in-one PC for my neighbor. The PC came with Windows 8.1 preinstalled.
The whole experience itself was not bad, but you could see the disconnect between the modern and the desktop world. The touch based interface is pretty cool, but doesn't make sense when you sit in front of the computer. If you want to stand in front of it, then it is much better..Of course Windows 10 is supposed to solve these issues..I guess we will see how it goes.
It's a shame Microsoft didn't provide a tablet with the real Windows 8 modern UI only. It would be really cool..
The most negative thing that happened yesterday is having to spend the whole day installing updates..There is a big quality difference here between the Mac experience and the Windows one.


Another thing that has been said here is that there is so much choice in hardware when buying a Windows PC. That might be true, but the choices are mostly a mess...
I tried finding an All-In-One PC with Retina resolution..Couldn't find anything.
After that I tried finding an all in one with 32GB RAM. Also nothing.
The only way to find what you want is by building your own PC. I had a look at the choices of Lenovo, HP and Dell and there is almost no customization possible. That might be ok for most people, but I couldn't find anything that has a similar configuration to my iMac, even in a tower config.
I am not looking to buy a PC, just wanted to see if anything changed since I had a really good look at the PC market. It looks that nothing changed..

Windows 10 will do nothing to change that. Sad.

 

[tdale]

my girlfriend is a graphic designer and she only uses macs...and every time she upgrades her os (she upgraded to mavericks a couple of weeks ago) she complains to me about how they made her computer less usable.
you see this a lot on forums. So, the option is to never provide an upgraded os? Then many will say there is no upgraded os. Things change a bit, things get added to, thats life. I have members on a yahoo forum saying they don't want new features like android has, then they get them, and its a yay. Change is normal. I also see many calling annoying things to them as bugs.

she believes that apple tweaks or changes things that didn't need to be fixed, her opinion, and her use case, probably the typical human nature of resisting change. and introduces a bunch of bugs in the process. I guess that is why i hated windows 8 -- they changed the things that were working fine (finally, after vista) and introduced a bunch of half-baked features that would not benefit a desktop user. Its a hybrid os, desktop and metro, hide the one you don't use hopefully windows 10 will be a better experience...and if not, i'll stick to macs. no it wont be for you as its a hybrid os

if i do switch to windows 10 when i purchase my next computer, i can also see myself switching to a windows phone (for the the integration...and just to play around with something new). Those who say that iphone and\or mac users would never switch to something else are delusional fanboys. who said that? normal people do not pledge allegiance to corporations. People can be loyal to a brand, but that brand must continue to provide value and innovation in order to keep their customers happy. Just look at what happened to blackberry.

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you forgot one thing. There are dozens of pc makers offering this array of choices. No matter how much apple tries, they can't match this offer and doing so would be pure folly.

If you look at one maker, the choice restricts substantially and i'm telling you the quality is often abysmal (to put it lightly). You're not getting products of apple quality yes, apple is better quality on average, but is it the best quality, or just above average? There are many examples of not so great as expected quality.after all, its just a personal computer, made in china, like every other personal computer and in ma y cases next door to the pc equivalent(when buying similar products to what apple sells). unless you use a top end manufacturer, and their top end models

if you buy a $500 dollar acer, lenovo, whatever, you can't really expand anything (crap power supply) and almost no space. You have to get a full tower with a decent power supply, which are getting rare as snow in july in the low end bracket, to expand anything. thats quite unfair, comparing a budget device to a top end apple device, thats just playing with numbers, and misleading. Compare like with like

at the mac mini range, expandability is basically limited to disk and memory and low profile, low power cards (sound or controller cards) in low end windows machines. You have to swap out the disk cause there's not really room for a second one (they don't even give you second brackets).

Might as well build it yourself for that price and get a full tower with a decent power supply.

Most pc oem"s have very low margins; possibly because their manufacturing/logistics is less streamlined than apple because they have to many assembly lines and parts. They can't differentiate themselves because all run the same software.

Apple is were it is now because it doesn't cater to every whim. Doing so in the mid 1990s is what almost led them to bankruptcy.

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[tdale]

Not coincidence at all... It's just that Windows makes the Mac more useful to them and is so versatile that it will run on anything.

What's funny is that Windows can support nearly every machine made by numerous companies going back 15+ years, and Apple can't even manage to support more than a handful of their most recent models. I'll be able to run windows 10 on my machines from 1999 and 2000. Yet my Mac Pro 2006 (built and purchased in late 2007) lost support from Apple in 2012. Despite Apple only having 5 mac models to support, they abandoned supporting my machine with current OS X versions only 5 years after they assembled and shipped my machine to me.

On the other hand, Microsoft is able to support and continues to support thousands of different model machines from hundreds of manufactures and system builders (not even counting the home built models) going back more than 15+ years.

When Apple can support all of their own machines (at least all Intel macs as that is still a small number of models to support) then maybe they'll have some bragging rights as to how great OS X is.

When they can support every computer made in the last 15 years (regardless of manufacturer) then perhaps they can claim to be as skilled as Microsoft in their coding.

OS X will always be a minority market as long as Apple continues on this path. Even Apple realizes this, otherwise they'd only make iPhones and iPads and iPods to work with OS X.

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That is the price of competing in a high demand market. Lots of buyers, bring lots of competitors. Lots of competitors bring tighter margins. But, they sell tons of machines with tight margins adding up to respectable profits.

Selling fewer machines with higher profits is also fine, if that's the path you choose. But, it's not a path that will lead Apple to dominance in the computer industry. Simply put, Apple failed too early in the game to establish the Macintosh market. It will always be a minority.

Actually, the Apple quality argument is pure myth. I've had more Macs die in their first 2 weeks than I've ever seen with any other manufacturer (including cheap $200 Acer machines).

You're talking with someone here who has had responsibility for literally hundreds of thousands of computers over the years. Just my own personal purchases would be in the near thousands. I've been in this industry since the beginning, and watched it evolve and had my hands on nearly every machine type and brand, etc. Including many that you've likely never heard of. I remember the industry that saw numerous incompatible platforms (PC's and Apple's were small players back then).

And Apples computers have been the only ones I've ever had to return for total failure and DOA. I've had macs that went through dozens of repairs in their first couple months before I just wrote them off and sold them before they could die again. It's crazy.

By comparison, I have never sent any PC (or for that matter even any other platform computers) back to its manufacturer, or taken it to a shop for repairs. Literally the only computers I've ever had die or arrive dead on arrival have been Apple's.

Supporting as many models is Apples choice, not a coding issue.

Apple will always be a minority PC maker as they are only in the consumer market. yes, there are business that use Macs but its MS that owns that sector. Plus the higher cost of an Apple PC is not perceived as value by the average consumer.

Quality wise, Apple is generally higher quality, but like every other PC its made in the same place by the same people using the same parts. If they increase the people quality a few notches thats a plus.

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The fact is, the Mac market is small. It's not going to grow on the current path. Macintosh machines are headed towards being an also ran. And, Apple will have to change course if it seriously wants to capture a majority of the computer market. But, Apple clearly sees the writing on the wall. They aren't competing in the computer industry anymore. They are showing signs of fading. They're betting their future on iOS devices. And, likely they will discontinue the Macintosh machines in time.

They have a nearly insurmountable obstacle to take over the computer industry. It'll never happen on the current path.

I don't see where Apple ever competed with computers. They never went after business, they keep the prices high, the marketing is low. Its a niche product my Apple fan friends tell me. I am an Apple fan to BTW. But they don't compete with Windows machines, they compete with themselves, selling to existing Mac users.The sales are solid, there s growth, so it works. They are in their own computer world, and it works for them

They wont ever remove Macs, they are there, they sell, they are stable, they are bought by Mac users, and some switchers, its quite a stable environment, insulate somewhat from the mass PC market