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Microsoft hit by record EU fine
- Thread starter iGav
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i agree a couple days interest and thats it and all they have to do is make a versionw/o wm available it doesnt mean itll chang e anythingiGAV said:
the only good paper clip is a dead one to see this check ot windowsRG heres a demo http://www.deanliou.com/WinRG/WinRG.htmFoxer said:
Cold Hard Cash?
Of which they have over $40 Billion (US).
No big impact to them. However, I do not condone what would be in effect the "nationalization" of a company's product. If they hate MS so much forbide them from doing business in Europe. Then we will see just how robust the EU economies really are.
Trimix said:
Of which they have over $40 Billion (US).
No big impact to them. However, I do not condone what would be in effect the "nationalization" of a company's product. If they hate MS so much forbide them from doing business in Europe. Then we will see just how robust the EU economies really are.
Evil Microsoft
or Wimp in the trash the O/S won't let you. All they want is for MS to make Applications, Applications and not part of the Operating System.
No one is saying Microsoft can't include IE and Wimp. They're saying they can't make Applications part of the Operating System. You can throw Quicktime player or Safari in the trash and get rid of them if you want to. You can't throw IEfive04 said:
or Wimp in the trash the O/S won't let you. All they want is for MS to make Applications, Applications and not part of the Operating System.
Actually, I think that XP and OS X's implementations are far superior to what Linux/Unix offered beforehand. Both OS's offer it in a secure manner, where as, on Linux, you basically can access any desktop that is logged in via the alt-<FKey> combo. I don't really consider it the same thing. (My Linux experience is limited to RedHat, so forgive me if another distro offers it - I don't think RedHat's 5-9 do, nor does Solaris 8 or 9 AFAIK)Bulgroz said:
And, yes, I know that Unix has had the ability to su for ever (I've been a Unix user since about 1989 or so). Unix is a true Multi-User OS, something windows only dreams about being (like the joke that is Windows Terminal Server!) - which is the reason for a lot of their security woes, I do believe.
No more Microsoft in Europe
So other than a temporary loss of sales, what would stop microsoft from refusing to release windows in Europe. Eventually people would be so pissed off that they couldn't upgrade their OS's or download patches and service packs that the people and business would yell loudly at the courts forcing them to re-evaluate the rulings.
I am an Apple user and dislike Microsoft's tendancy toward world domination but I still think these rulings are dumb. There is nothing stoping a user from using alternative web browsers, movie players, etc. Just because IE is included free doesn't mean you have to use it. If Mozilla continued to innovate and built a better, faster browser, people would buy it. Just like people still buy Roxio Toast even though cd burning is included in iTunes.
So other than a temporary loss of sales, what would stop microsoft from refusing to release windows in Europe. Eventually people would be so pissed off that they couldn't upgrade their OS's or download patches and service packs that the people and business would yell loudly at the courts forcing them to re-evaluate the rulings.
I am an Apple user and dislike Microsoft's tendancy toward world domination but I still think these rulings are dumb. There is nothing stoping a user from using alternative web browsers, movie players, etc. Just because IE is included free doesn't mean you have to use it. If Mozilla continued to innovate and built a better, faster browser, people would buy it. Just like people still buy Roxio Toast even though cd burning is included in iTunes.
With Business practices like that they would be sued by Consumers (no doubt it would be the biggest class action suit ever), retailers, the EU and individual countries that use Windows (they would be unable to upgrade), and individual companies. The EU would not re-evaluate the ruling they would just increase the finedigitalbiker said:
digitalbiker said:
People are less likely to buy other brands, and that has adamagine effect on the sales of the third party developers
No Microsoft in Europe
On what grounds can someone sue just because a business decides to no longer support or sale a product! Microsoft is not obligated to support windows or improve their product forever.
Since the courts in that area are hostile to Microsoft, I believe they have every right to refuse service to that area. After all, Microsoft isn't a real monopoly. There are many alternatives. In fact, I am using OSX on an Apple PowerBook replying in Safari. At work I use a linux box that runs propriatary software for my business. I get by as do millions of others without Microsoft.
I am not trying to argue for Microsoft. I just don't think courts should be trying to interfere with a perfectly well functioning free market place of Software and hardware. Eventually people will choose to buy and use other products that are not made by Microsoft. New devices are coming out everyday, the landscape changes fast, today microsoft is on top but who will be the next big player and what device will it be.
vpalvarez said:
On what grounds can someone sue just because a business decides to no longer support or sale a product! Microsoft is not obligated to support windows or improve their product forever.
Since the courts in that area are hostile to Microsoft, I believe they have every right to refuse service to that area. After all, Microsoft isn't a real monopoly. There are many alternatives. In fact, I am using OSX on an Apple PowerBook replying in Safari. At work I use a linux box that runs propriatary software for my business. I get by as do millions of others without Microsoft.
I am not trying to argue for Microsoft. I just don't think courts should be trying to interfere with a perfectly well functioning free market place of Software and hardware. Eventually people will choose to buy and use other products that are not made by Microsoft. New devices are coming out everyday, the landscape changes fast, today microsoft is on top but who will be the next big player and what device will it be.
Good Point, but Microsoft isn't the only guilty party
Kind of dangerous for a n00b to be defending Microsoft on a forum title "macrumors" and I hope that I am spared the visceral "Microsoft-is-the-spawn-of-the-Devil-must-kill-bill-(gates)" reaction.
This is most likely true. For example, it is completely impossible for you to uninstall IE or Media Player in any Windows edition since 2000 short of finding all the memory addresses either application is stored in on the hard drive and manually scratching them out. I know that because I spent about a week trying every possible way. And even though Microsoft is known for providing shoddy programming to the masses, they aren't so stupid as to allow technology-challenged (or even technical adepts) to completely muck up their software. Most of the time...
However, Apple has bundled QuickTime and OS X together (<a href="http://developer.apple.com/macosx/architecture/">as evidence by a wonderfully rendered "aqua-licious" image on Apple's site</a>) so tightly that QuickTime integrated directly into the system architecture. You can't uninstall QuickTime from OS X, but I don't see people crying foul over this. I am sure to get flak about how its <em>so</em> different, but in reality it isn't. I'm on a 1.25 GHz PowerBook G4 running 10.3.3 and I have QuickTime, RealMedia Player and Windows Media Player (but only because nothing else supports the .wma or .wmv codecs. Honest!) and all run well, just like QuickTime, RealMedia Player and Windows Media Player work fine on Windows machines.
On an endnote that is sure to get me brownie points...there isn't an analogous situation between IE and Safari AND I personally believe that Microsoft should be dismantled piecemeal like Standard Oil and Bell Telephone were back in the day when governments weren't afraid to confront big business (but I think that has a lot to do with the current head honcho of the US...)
Kind of dangerous for a n00b to be defending Microsoft on a forum title "macrumors" and I hope that I am spared the visceral "Microsoft-is-the-spawn-of-the-Devil-must-kill-bill-(gates)" reaction.
Naimfan said:
This is most likely true. For example, it is completely impossible for you to uninstall IE or Media Player in any Windows edition since 2000 short of finding all the memory addresses either application is stored in on the hard drive and manually scratching them out. I know that because I spent about a week trying every possible way. And even though Microsoft is known for providing shoddy programming to the masses, they aren't so stupid as to allow technology-challenged (or even technical adepts) to completely muck up their software. Most of the time...
However, Apple has bundled QuickTime and OS X together (<a href="http://developer.apple.com/macosx/architecture/">as evidence by a wonderfully rendered "aqua-licious" image on Apple's site</a>) so tightly that QuickTime integrated directly into the system architecture. You can't uninstall QuickTime from OS X, but I don't see people crying foul over this. I am sure to get flak about how its <em>so</em> different, but in reality it isn't. I'm on a 1.25 GHz PowerBook G4 running 10.3.3 and I have QuickTime, RealMedia Player and Windows Media Player (but only because nothing else supports the .wma or .wmv codecs. Honest!) and all run well, just like QuickTime, RealMedia Player and Windows Media Player work fine on Windows machines.
On an endnote that is sure to get me brownie points...there isn't an analogous situation between IE and Safari AND I personally believe that Microsoft should be dismantled piecemeal like Standard Oil and Bell Telephone were back in the day when governments weren't afraid to confront big business (but I think that has a lot to do with the current head honcho of the US...)
slowtreme said:
Ok - I couldn't hold back anymore - someone may have posted this already, if so I apologize for the repeat. One little thing has been forgotten about the Netscape case. Netscape was number one. MS decided they wanted to be number one, so they created IE. Then they began to bundle IE with Windows. Netscape was still number one. Then MS took their 95% market share and told vendors "hey, if you put NS on the desktop, we aren't going to let you use Windows anymore. With 95% of the market, the vendors couldn't afford to go against MS. So they stopped putting NS on the desktop. People stopped using NS since it wasn't right there and began using IE. If it is right there, people will use it. Eventually IE became the better browser. But look at the money differences in the 2 companies. This was the heart of the anti-trust case here in the US. If MS made such a better browser, why did they have to play unfairly. This is what made them a monopoly - using their marketshare to "blackmail" other companies.
geffde said:
Who cares about uninstalling QuickTime? This is not the same thing as Windows Media Player. You think that you are comparing like things, but you are not. QuickTime is not the same as QuickTime Player. You might not be able to remove QuickTime from your Mac without causing problems (if you can remove it at all), but you can remove QuickTime Player without causing any problems.
As for the graphic that you referred to, scroll over the QuickTime box on that page and you will see from the text that appears that what is being referred to is the QuickTime "technology", not the QuickTime Player application. The technology is a part of the OS; the application is not.
RHutch said:
While I agree that comparing Quicktime technology and Media Player are like comparing Apples and oranges, my point is who cares about unistalling anything.
Just because software resides on your computer doesn't mean you have to use it or that it excludes using other software.
Apple is just as guilty of including software with the computer purchase or OS purchase as Microsoft. Sure you can remove iTunes or iPhoto and install Roxio toast or Photoshop lite. But how is this much different than installing Nero or Photoshop lite on Windows and just using those apps instead of the OS bundled apps. People still have the choice.
I agree that it makes it more difficult for a windows software developer to make a good web browser program to compete but the freely included iphoto that comes pre-installed on a Mac makes it equally difficult for Apple developers to develop a photo organizing and publishing package.
It all boils down to innovation! If a software developer provides a unique piece of software that does something different and everybody needs that edge, that piece of software will sell. Eventually it will become outdated and possibly lose out to other packages but by then a new innovation will be making the money.
The computer industry is one of the fastest mutating landscapes in history. I am sure that in 10 to 20 years things will look a lot different. I remember in 1984 when the biggest selling consumer computer was the Commodore 64. I had a whopping 300 baud modem and began using compuserve which was a new service. So you tell me who and what will be on top in 2024!
ROFLMAO!!!carletonmusic said:
all I can say is IT'S ABOUT FREEKIN TIME!!! Was wondering whom had to balls to put it to M$< (that less than sign is intentional for its loosing this battle).
Now that is funny coming from a company supposedly run by adults. Sounds like my 5 yrs old son whining that hey my sister gets to this so why can't I??!
Was watching CNN Headline news early eastern standard time with the interview with their spokesman chin up high acting confident for investers. Lets just hope that the USA Justice Department will have the balls next time around.
digitalbiker said:
Yes, but the majority of people just use what is preinstalled. I don't know many pc users, that install a second browser. why should they, IE does the job just perfect.
digitalbiker said:
I agree that Apple is including software with their computers. but as long as apple hasn't got >95% market share, it just doesn't matter.
microsoft has a monopoly and they use this position to get bigger and enter new markets. I'm pretty sure that most other companies (including apple) would try to do so in a similar way. otherwise a company wouldn't get so powerfull and big.
Stolid said:
By the way... the CD overtook the vinyl record in first place, not the cassette. And that was because of many things. Sound, longevity, size, etc...pp...
And today the main reasons why everybody is burning CD-Rs instead of using tapes are:
1. It is a 1:1 copy with no sound loss.
2. It is compatible with any CD-Player (and everybody has one these days)
3. It is CHEAP!!! (50 cents for a CD-R)
4. Copies are made very fast and not in real-time...
5. There is no sound loss over the time by using it often
To jump back and forth on the media is maybe convenient, but I don't know a lot of people who would see that as the main benefit of using CD-Rs. Normally you put it in and you listen to it in one piece...
groovebuster
In the (inconceivable) event that Microsoft were to pull out of Europe, it would force Europeans to explore other options (which they already have been doing to a limited extent - take the city of Munich's adoption of Linux).
Microsoft's whole strategy is based upon them being a desktop monopoly in enterprise. The reason big organisations don't switch from the No.1 is because the associated costs, hassle and risk of migration. However, left with no choice, they would migrate.
Over time Europe would prove the case for the Linux desktop. And organisations with Linux desktops would also use Linux servers. Microsoft's worldwide share of the desktop would start dropping for the first time in history. You could expect them to lose up to 20% market share to Linux.
As many global enterprises are based in Europe, if their European divisions/headquarters were forced to migrate from Microsoft, this would very likely precipitate an organisation-wide migration. Hence, Microsoft would lose a further 20% market share.
This leaves them with a 55% market share, and a monopoly lost forever. But is does not stop there. Remember that the reason enterprise customers don't want to migrate from Microsoft is because of the costs, hassle & risk of migration. Once such a large number of big enterprises have made the switch, any teathing problems will have been ironed out, the case for lower cost of ownership in Linux will have (probably) finally been made, leaving only the hassle factor, which would be managable. So you could expect the remaining 55% market share to also steadily be eroded.
In summary, Microsoft needs Europe more than Europe needs Microsoft.
Microsoft's whole strategy is based upon them being a desktop monopoly in enterprise. The reason big organisations don't switch from the No.1 is because the associated costs, hassle and risk of migration. However, left with no choice, they would migrate.
Over time Europe would prove the case for the Linux desktop. And organisations with Linux desktops would also use Linux servers. Microsoft's worldwide share of the desktop would start dropping for the first time in history. You could expect them to lose up to 20% market share to Linux.
As many global enterprises are based in Europe, if their European divisions/headquarters were forced to migrate from Microsoft, this would very likely precipitate an organisation-wide migration. Hence, Microsoft would lose a further 20% market share.
This leaves them with a 55% market share, and a monopoly lost forever. But is does not stop there. Remember that the reason enterprise customers don't want to migrate from Microsoft is because of the costs, hassle & risk of migration. Once such a large number of big enterprises have made the switch, any teathing problems will have been ironed out, the case for lower cost of ownership in Linux will have (probably) finally been made, leaving only the hassle factor, which would be managable. So you could expect the remaining 55% market share to also steadily be eroded.
In summary, Microsoft needs Europe more than Europe needs Microsoft.
groovebuster said:
Groovebuster, That last point about jumping back & forth is the MAIN reason why I loved CD. Back in late 86 was amongst the first to have one-no hip hop available then. Remember 8-Tracks; that back & forth thing was sweet. tapes like the DCC from Kenwood tried to have that functionality but having a tape being eaten by the deck was a serious pain.
Foocha, great insight. hoping that this decision takes affect immediately.
geffde said:
Check out VLC (VideoLAN Client). This program has run both wmv and wma files for me...sometimes even better than WMP. It still is in developmental stages (not a 1.0 release, yet), but it is still a nice FREE app, and alternative to WMP.
Why I think what is happening here is important is that somebody is at least trying to prevent history repeating itself. IE nudged out Netscape, and now that Netscape is pretty much out of the picture, IE has stagnated and has not even kept up with the times. This creates a HUGE pain for web designers who are trying to create fresh content, and extend the capabilities of web browsers, but find themselves hindered by IE 6. This is a prime example where MS has been a danger to the computing society. Not only do Microsoft and innovation never go together, by having such a dominating presence in several fields, they are actually stifling innovation! So what am I going to do with my great looking web page? Settle with least common denominator? Create a whole separate site just for "older" browsers like IE 5 & 6 now? Microsoft only worked hard enough to destroy its competition and then it stopped caring. Apple is continually having to innovate its butt off just to survive. I believe the same goes for smaller companies. They need to make as great a product as possible to be successful. They actually have to rely on *gasp* ... quality! So, to prevent WMP from completely pushing out Real and QuickTime, the same problems need to be avoided.
Has M$ learned anything from its history? Apparently not. As others have mentioned, what happens if you do not effectively punish a disobedient child? You get a child who does not learn from his/her mistakes...and perhaps considers and thinks about things in the future.
joeconvert said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, EU economies would flounder without Microsoft coming to their rescue - showing them how real American enterprise save them from sliding back into the Middle Ages. Without American industrial leadership Europe would surely drown in a morass of mediocrity. Do you think America invented democracy too ?