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Microsoft is assuring that the Xbox will die a quick death
- Thread starter vniow
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Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
How do you figure that the Gamecube is lagging on technology?
because it doesn't have pixel shaders or dolby 5.1 output.. puh-leeze. [/QUOTE]
Nintendo have always been last to bring out their console and they have regularly been behind the competition with technology. The only way that I see a difference to this is that, in the Sega vs. Nintendo days, Nintendo always had better graphics, most likely due to the amount of extra time it took them to release, but then Sega would make another release quickly that shot them back down again.
Now that we have more companies in the market, Nintendo has all but become a kids toy and just does not stand up technologically to its competition.
It is so sad to think about the fact that it has taken them this long to ditch the cartridge and that the GameBoy only went colour in its more recent life.
Back to the Game Cube, I really don't believe that it addresses the full potential market out there and, come one, it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there. Maybe I can start a company and sell custom configured gaming Macs.... I could make a fortune if I made lots of childrens games as well.
How do you figure that the Gamecube is lagging on technology?
because it doesn't have pixel shaders or dolby 5.1 output.. puh-leeze. [/QUOTE]
Nintendo have always been last to bring out their console and they have regularly been behind the competition with technology. The only way that I see a difference to this is that, in the Sega vs. Nintendo days, Nintendo always had better graphics, most likely due to the amount of extra time it took them to release, but then Sega would make another release quickly that shot them back down again.
Now that we have more companies in the market, Nintendo has all but become a kids toy and just does not stand up technologically to its competition.
It is so sad to think about the fact that it has taken them this long to ditch the cartridge and that the GameBoy only went colour in its more recent life.
Back to the Game Cube, I really don't believe that it addresses the full potential market out there and, come one, it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there. Maybe I can start a company and sell custom configured gaming Macs.... I could make a fortune if I made lots of childrens games as well.
Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there.
You're kidding me, right?
a 485Mhz G3 + SIMD with a VERY low latency memory subsystem or a 733Mhz Celeron...
I'll take the G3 thankyouverymuch.
it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there.
You're kidding me, right?
a 485Mhz G3 + SIMD with a VERY low latency memory subsystem or a 733Mhz Celeron...
I'll take the G3 thankyouverymuch.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
Like I said, and I'll start up a company dedicated to making Mac gaming machines that will kick the competitions arse.... I am certain to make a fortune.
</sarcasm>
Like I said, and I'll start up a company dedicated to making Mac gaming machines that will kick the competitions arse.... I am certain to make a fortune.
</sarcasm>
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
Like I said, and I'll start up a company dedicated to making Mac gaming machines that will kick the competitions arse.... I am certain to make a fortune.
</sarcasm>
So you think that the Gamecube is a Mac because they share processor family?..
Are you aware how ignorant that sounds?
I suppose you think the Megadrive was a Mac because it used a Motorola 68000... ?
Like I said, and I'll start up a company dedicated to making Mac gaming machines that will kick the competitions arse.... I am certain to make a fortune.
</sarcasm>
So you think that the Gamecube is a Mac because they share processor family?..
Are you aware how ignorant that sounds?
I suppose you think the Megadrive was a Mac because it used a Motorola 68000... ?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
Dude, why not think before you talk.
I made a comparison to prove a point.
Ask yourself the question, if a non-biased gamer could have any games in the world and any personal computer system in the world, why would they not even think of buying a Mac?
The MegaDrive is the same deal, I LOVE my MegaDrive but do I think it is any good at graphics... **** no! The difference, though, is that Sega had the game base to pull it off and, by that, I mean the games that were on Sega that were not on Nintento were of such a caliber that it made it the obvious purchase to me.
These days, though, there seems to be a move away from games being owned by one console. I think GameCube is one console that still defys that a lot but IMO what they have could not be missed on the other side of the fence. Saying this, the choice is becoming far less about which game you want and far more about what else the console has to offer and who markets to you the best.
Dude, why not think before you talk.
I made a comparison to prove a point.
Ask yourself the question, if a non-biased gamer could have any games in the world and any personal computer system in the world, why would they not even think of buying a Mac?
The MegaDrive is the same deal, I LOVE my MegaDrive but do I think it is any good at graphics... **** no! The difference, though, is that Sega had the game base to pull it off and, by that, I mean the games that were on Sega that were not on Nintento were of such a caliber that it made it the obvious purchase to me.
These days, though, there seems to be a move away from games being owned by one console. I think GameCube is one console that still defys that a lot but IMO what they have could not be missed on the other side of the fence. Saying this, the choice is becoming far less about which game you want and far more about what else the console has to offer and who markets to you the best.
Actually, one of the most intellegent things about the PS2, IMO, is the use of USB and Firewire... what better way to open up your console to 3rd party extras. While Sony might not directly benifit from 3rd parties, knowing that there are lots of extras out there increases consumer desire for the product and to buy future products (exp. if their PS2 extras work with the "PS3").
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
Dude, why not think before you talk.
Right back at you.
I made a comparison to prove a point.
Making a comparison that could be interpreted multiple ways without indicating which way you want it to be interpreted?...
mmkay.
But wait, I responded to the point of "it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there."
That's nothing to do with the backpedalling you're doing below, that's knocking it (unfairly) from a technical standpoint...
Ask yourself the question, if a non-biased gamer could have any games in the world and any personal computer system in the world, why would they not even think of buying a Mac?
That's simple, quantity of games and the fact that a Mac (or a PC) costs a shedload more than a console.
nothing whatsoever to do with the technical side of things.
These days, though, there seems to be a move away from games being owned by one console.
true, to an extent, but I'm not seeing GTA3 for the Gamecube, I'm not seeing Halo for the PS2, I'm not seening Rogue Leader for the XBox.
I think GameCube is one console that still defys that a lot but IMO what they have could not be missed on the other side of the fence. Saying this, the choice is becoming far less about which game you want and far more about what else the console has to offer and who markets to you the best.
It's about who markets to you the best?...
I agree that things like doubling as a DVD player are useful, but the primary selling point for a console SHOULD be the quantity of FUN games for it, NOT the technical specs of the console, not the halfassed 'extras' the console can do.
Anyone that buys a console because they saw an advert that said it was mega-awesome-cool deserves whatever the hell they get.
Dude, why not think before you talk.
Right back at you.
I made a comparison to prove a point.
Making a comparison that could be interpreted multiple ways without indicating which way you want it to be interpreted?...
mmkay.
But wait, I responded to the point of "it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there."
That's nothing to do with the backpedalling you're doing below, that's knocking it (unfairly) from a technical standpoint...
Ask yourself the question, if a non-biased gamer could have any games in the world and any personal computer system in the world, why would they not even think of buying a Mac?
That's simple, quantity of games and the fact that a Mac (or a PC) costs a shedload more than a console.
nothing whatsoever to do with the technical side of things.
These days, though, there seems to be a move away from games being owned by one console.
true, to an extent, but I'm not seeing GTA3 for the Gamecube, I'm not seeing Halo for the PS2, I'm not seening Rogue Leader for the XBox.
I think GameCube is one console that still defys that a lot but IMO what they have could not be missed on the other side of the fence. Saying this, the choice is becoming far less about which game you want and far more about what else the console has to offer and who markets to you the best.
It's about who markets to you the best?...
I agree that things like doubling as a DVD player are useful, but the primary selling point for a console SHOULD be the quantity of FUN games for it, NOT the technical specs of the console, not the halfassed 'extras' the console can do.
Anyone that buys a console because they saw an advert that said it was mega-awesome-cool deserves whatever the hell they get.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
What is unfair about it and, also, I am using multiple points for my claim, or I would not have a substancial arguement, but since you made a comment about my tech argements there was no reason for me to continue my other points?
I admit I could have worded it better but you also did not read what I had said. What does "a Mac (or a PC) costs a shedload more than a console" have to do with "any personal computer system"????
Also, to the part I could have worded better, you said "quantity of games" and I was trying to get to the point that this person could play any game on any personal computer. I dare say that, if there was no difference in software between Mac and PC, an unbiased gamer would still choose PC and a heavy reason for that is that the PowerPC is not exactly the greatest 3D processor. Sure, that would not be the only reason but all us know, though some deny, that if the PC and Mac were the same cost people would choose the PC for gaming and the Pentium/Celerons ability to handle games is superiour.
Machines/processors need to be purchased according to what you do with them. No processor is best at everything.
Well, if you did, there would not be a MOVE away, all games would be on all consoles.
Time for a reality check.... the games market has moved to a new era. It is an era that I do not like but what can I do about it. I still own old consoles because the quality of games was far greater back then. These days, boxes are sold by how good the graphics are except in a couple of rare cases. Obviously there will always be a market for worthwhile games since people such as myself are still desiring something that changes my minds ability to think instead of its ability to keep up with what is going on.
Also, most people are not technologically minded like may of us... the TV says a box is cool and they buy that one... they do not know any better.... they just wanted something to play games on. I really do think that the day of people choosing a console according to the games on it is over and for Nintendo to say in the market in the long term they are going to keep pushing the GameCube, and future consoles, hard, if not harder.
I could not give a **** how graphical a console is, I want good games but this debate is about how it is not how it should be.
What is unfair about it and, also, I am using multiple points for my claim, or I would not have a substancial arguement, but since you made a comment about my tech argements there was no reason for me to continue my other points?
I admit I could have worded it better but you also did not read what I had said. What does "a Mac (or a PC) costs a shedload more than a console" have to do with "any personal computer system"????
Also, to the part I could have worded better, you said "quantity of games" and I was trying to get to the point that this person could play any game on any personal computer. I dare say that, if there was no difference in software between Mac and PC, an unbiased gamer would still choose PC and a heavy reason for that is that the PowerPC is not exactly the greatest 3D processor. Sure, that would not be the only reason but all us know, though some deny, that if the PC and Mac were the same cost people would choose the PC for gaming and the Pentium/Celerons ability to handle games is superiour.
Machines/processors need to be purchased according to what you do with them. No processor is best at everything.
Well, if you did, there would not be a MOVE away, all games would be on all consoles.
Time for a reality check.... the games market has moved to a new era. It is an era that I do not like but what can I do about it. I still own old consoles because the quality of games was far greater back then. These days, boxes are sold by how good the graphics are except in a couple of rare cases. Obviously there will always be a market for worthwhile games since people such as myself are still desiring something that changes my minds ability to think instead of its ability to keep up with what is going on.
Also, most people are not technologically minded like may of us... the TV says a box is cool and they buy that one... they do not know any better.... they just wanted something to play games on. I really do think that the day of people choosing a console according to the games on it is over and for Nintendo to say in the market in the long term they are going to keep pushing the GameCube, and future consoles, hard, if not harder.
I could not give a **** how graphical a console is, I want good games but this debate is about how it is not how it should be.
I think this is primarily why the PS2 is leading the industry. They have the quantity of games plus equal their competition in terms of the 'extras' offered.
The Xbox has an uphill battle, but I believe (unfortunately) Microsoft is in the industry for the long haul. The Xbox may fail, but Xbox2 will succeed through attrition. Sega has already fallen by the wayside, and it looks like Nintendo might be next. I would rather have Sony, Nintendo & Sega battling it out without Microsoft involved.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
What is unfair about it
You aren't giving the Gekko due credit.
unbiased gamer would still choose PC and a heavy reason for that is that the PowerPC is not exactly the greatest 3D processor. Sure, that would not be the only reason but all us know, though some deny, that if the PC and Mac were the same cost people would choose the PC for gaming and the Pentium/Celerons ability to handle games is superiour.
TBH I think that you're displaying a LOT of bias in that,
Point 1) a 2.8Ghz P4 might be better for games than a 1.25Ghz G4, that does NOT mean that a 733Mhz Celeron is better for the task than a 485Mhz Gekko/G3. (btw, the Gekko is faster per clock than the G4, since it's based on the original 4-stage G3/4 pipeline, not the stretched 7-stage pipeline the >500Mhz G4's use)
Point 2) One of the fastest processors available ANYWHERE right now is a PowerPC processor, especially for floating point maths.
Point 3) the reason people would choose a PC over a Mac for gaming is the quantity of games, NOT the ability of the hardware to cope with games.
Machines/processors need to be purchased according to what you do with them. No processor is best at everything.
No, but you're not giving the G3 in the Gamecube due credit, it's easily a match for the Celeron in the Xbox, especially when you take into account it's nifty memory subsystem.
the Xbox has more graphical grunt (and sound for that matter), but that's down to the Nvidia hardware, not the cpu.
I could not give a **** how graphical a console is, I want good games but this debate is about how it is not how it should be.
Okay, I see your stance there, you're basically saying that the Gamecube is suffering from the Mhz Myth?
What is unfair about it
You aren't giving the Gekko due credit.
unbiased gamer would still choose PC and a heavy reason for that is that the PowerPC is not exactly the greatest 3D processor. Sure, that would not be the only reason but all us know, though some deny, that if the PC and Mac were the same cost people would choose the PC for gaming and the Pentium/Celerons ability to handle games is superiour.
TBH I think that you're displaying a LOT of bias in that,
Point 1) a 2.8Ghz P4 might be better for games than a 1.25Ghz G4, that does NOT mean that a 733Mhz Celeron is better for the task than a 485Mhz Gekko/G3. (btw, the Gekko is faster per clock than the G4, since it's based on the original 4-stage G3/4 pipeline, not the stretched 7-stage pipeline the >500Mhz G4's use)
Point 2) One of the fastest processors available ANYWHERE right now is a PowerPC processor, especially for floating point maths.
Point 3) the reason people would choose a PC over a Mac for gaming is the quantity of games, NOT the ability of the hardware to cope with games.
Machines/processors need to be purchased according to what you do with them. No processor is best at everything.
No, but you're not giving the G3 in the Gamecube due credit, it's easily a match for the Celeron in the Xbox, especially when you take into account it's nifty memory subsystem.
the Xbox has more graphical grunt (and sound for that matter), but that's down to the Nvidia hardware, not the cpu.
I could not give a **** how graphical a console is, I want good games but this debate is about how it is not how it should be.
Okay, I see your stance there, you're basically saying that the Gamecube is suffering from the Mhz Myth?
How is the Playstation 2 the first truely 128-bit processing console??
What makes it 128-bit and how is it different from those old consoles talked about earlier in this thread that where, I think, 4 x 32-bit???
What makes it 128-bit and how is it different from those old consoles talked about earlier in this thread that where, I think, 4 x 32-bit???
How is the Playstation 2 the first truely 128-bit processing console??
What makes it 128-bit and how is it different from those old consoles talked about earlier in this thread that where, I think, 4 x 32-bit???
I'd have to google up on this to be sure, but I'm moderately certain that the Playstation 2 isn't 128bit, it has a vector coprocessor as part of the emotion engine that works on data in 128bit chunks. (a la Altivec)
otherwise known as.. Marketing!
What makes it 128-bit and how is it different from those old consoles talked about earlier in this thread that where, I think, 4 x 32-bit???
I'd have to google up on this to be sure, but I'm moderately certain that the Playstation 2 isn't 128bit, it has a vector coprocessor as part of the emotion engine that works on data in 128bit chunks. (a la Altivec)
otherwise known as.. Marketing!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
For the 3rd time, the example given said that you could get the same games for Mac and PC.
Well, now were are becoming speculative but the end result is that the XBox kicks the Cubes arse graphically and you pointed out also in audio.
Umm... not really no. I do not think the MHz Myth really exists in the console world because most people do not even know what processor is in their console. I think it is suffering under the hands of marketers, though. Microsoft and Sony have a LOT more marketing $ and it has a big impact.
It is also suffering from the "this one has better graphics so it is better" problem. People are buying for how it looks on screen instead of how it plays. The same used to be true, to an extent, for Nintendo vs. Sega with Nintendo winning that one.
For the 3rd time, the example given said that you could get the same games for Mac and PC.
Well, now were are becoming speculative but the end result is that the XBox kicks the Cubes arse graphically and you pointed out also in audio.
I could not give a **** how graphical a console is, I want good games but this debate is about how it is not how it should be.
Okay, I see your stance there, you're basically saying that the Gamecube is suffering from the Mhz Myth?
Umm... not really no. I do not think the MHz Myth really exists in the console world because most people do not even know what processor is in their console. I think it is suffering under the hands of marketers, though. Microsoft and Sony have a LOT more marketing $ and it has a big impact.
It is also suffering from the "this one has better graphics so it is better" problem. People are buying for how it looks on screen instead of how it plays. The same used to be true, to an extent, for Nintendo vs. Sega with Nintendo winning that one.
AAAHHH... I had a suspicion things might have worked that way. They really need governing laws about how companies describe their processors.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
For the 3rd time, the example given said that you could get the same games for Mac and PC.
given the same games, then I'd go with the Mac. (but that 's just me)
Well, now were are becoming speculative but the end result is that the XBox kicks the Cubes arse graphically and you pointed out also in audio.
how is that speculative?, the G3 is faster per clock than the P3/Celeron, and it's tied to a very low latency memory subsystem.
And your "it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there." statement is still wrong
Umm... not really no. I do not think the MHz Myth really exists in the console world because most people do not even know what processor is in their console.
When the Xbox was introduced there were 'checkbox' specification lists printed on the Microsoft blurb for it, comparing it with the GC and PS2 on processor clock/memory quantity etc etc.
the gamecube does have ONE clear advantage however, it's cheaper than the PS2 or Xbox (here in England at least)
For the 3rd time, the example given said that you could get the same games for Mac and PC.
given the same games, then I'd go with the Mac. (but that 's just me)
Well, now were are becoming speculative but the end result is that the XBox kicks the Cubes arse graphically and you pointed out also in audio.
how is that speculative?, the G3 is faster per clock than the P3/Celeron, and it's tied to a very low latency memory subsystem.
And your "it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there." statement is still wrong
Umm... not really no. I do not think the MHz Myth really exists in the console world because most people do not even know what processor is in their console.
When the Xbox was introduced there were 'checkbox' specification lists printed on the Microsoft blurb for it, comparing it with the GC and PS2 on processor clock/memory quantity etc etc.
the gamecube does have ONE clear advantage however, it's cheaper than the PS2 or Xbox (here in England at least)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
If you were a gamer... why on earth would you do that.
It is speculative because you need real world examples. As a Mac user I would have thought you would understand well that you regularly need to forget about the specs and test how it works in the real world. If my statement if wrong, though, you are saying that the PowerPC is number 1 for 3D graphics... give me a break.
I missed the point.... so what if it was on a blurb... that does not mean most people know the processor in their machines. I think you keep forgetting that most people are not technologically minded and MHz = zip and processor = zip, clock is something on the wall to tell the time and memory is an intangable item in your mind.
If you were a gamer... why on earth would you do that.
Well, now were are becoming speculative but the end result is that the XBox kicks the Cubes arse graphically and you pointed out also in audio.
how is that speculative?, the G3 is faster per clock than the P3/Celeron, and it's tied to a very low latency memory subsystem.
And your "it uses a PowerPC processor to handle 3D gaming.... you are just asking not to be number 1 there." statement is still wrong
It is speculative because you need real world examples. As a Mac user I would have thought you would understand well that you regularly need to forget about the specs and test how it works in the real world. If my statement if wrong, though, you are saying that the PowerPC is number 1 for 3D graphics... give me a break.
I missed the point.... so what if it was on a blurb... that does not mean most people know the processor in their machines. I think you keep forgetting that most people are not technologically minded and MHz = zip and processor = zip, clock is something on the wall to tell the time and memory is an intangable item in your mind.
Ars has a nice article about the chip itself here that has a few good explanations. One quote is this:
"Finally, the Emotion Engine contains a 10-channel DMA controller (DMAC) to manage up to 10 simultaneous transfers on the Emotion Engine's internal 128-bit, 64-bit, and 16-bit buses."
and this:
"The two, fully-pipelined 64b integer ALU's are interesting, because they can either be used independently of each other (like in a normal CPU), or they can be locked together to do 128-bit integer SIMD in the following configurations: sixteen, 8-bit ops/cycle; eight, 16-bit ops/cycle; four, 32-bit ops/cycle. Pretty sweet.
To take advantage of the integer and FP SIMD capabilities that COP2 (COP2 = VU0) and the iALUs provide, Toshiba used extensions to the MIPS III ISA that include a comprehensive set of 128-bit SIMD instructions."
So it has full 128-bit busses and instructions (although they are channeled to outside chips as far as I can understand.)
Wanna know why the PS2 is so good:
A MAC is used in a variety of vector calculations, the most common of these being the dot product.
Thanks for the link
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NINTENDO
Time for another reality check, I think. I would choose a mac but it would not be a G3/4 based system it would be a G500/501 when it comes out.
Firstly.... who reads the blurb???
Secondly.... it is more about the name than the speed. People do not even think about AMD because it is not called Intel. Looking at Mac vs. PC is different because people know the name Apple and look at the specs.
Thirdly, you can talk about how great you think the Gecko is until you are blue in the face but it does not make the GameCube seem any better because it just does not stand up in real world tests.
Also, I will bring back an earlier point that you passed by in that the Nintendo is so heavily pushed towards children. Why would you want to play kiddies games when you could play big kids games?
At least the GameCube is like the DreamCast in that it's a size that reflects its use unlike the XBox that is big enough to hold the hardware to run eBay.
Time for another reality check, I think. I would choose a mac but it would not be a G3/4 based system it would be a G500/501 when it comes out.
Firstly.... who reads the blurb???
Secondly.... it is more about the name than the speed. People do not even think about AMD because it is not called Intel. Looking at Mac vs. PC is different because people know the name Apple and look at the specs.
Thirdly, you can talk about how great you think the Gecko is until you are blue in the face but it does not make the GameCube seem any better because it just does not stand up in real world tests.
Also, I will bring back an earlier point that you passed by in that the Nintendo is so heavily pushed towards children. Why would you want to play kiddies games when you could play big kids games?
At least the GameCube is like the DreamCast in that it's a size that reflects its use unlike the XBox that is big enough to hold the hardware to run eBay.