My Crazy Sawtooth(Now Gigabit Ethernet) Project

[bunnspecial]

Okay, I think I'm going to abandon any DPs, Rhapsody, and Server on this particular system. Server should run, and maybe I'll try to make it work.

In any case, I have a boatload of beige G3s now(4 of them, and probably a 5th on the way) so I think one or two of them would be good candidates. I might even try Server on my Yikes! or my project B&W(with a G4 upgrade), since server at least seems to have G4 support. I think the Yikes! is a better candidate, though-the B&W G4 has a Radeon 9200 and may in the near future have a 5200-neither of which I want to give up since I've optimized the computer for OS X, and the Yikes! still has a Rage 128. I have a Radeon 7000 lying around that I was thinking about putting in the Yikes!, but if it would mean losing the ability to run Server I'll leave the Rage 128.

 

[California]

Okay, I think I'm going to abandon any DPs, Rhapsody, and Server on this particular system. Server should run, and maybe I'll try to make it work.

In any case, I have a boatload of beige G3s now(4 of them, and probably a 5th on the way) so I think one or two of them would be good candidates. I might even try Server on my Yikes! or my project B&W(with a G4 upgrade), since server at least seems to have G4 support. I think the Yikes! is a better candidate, though-the B&W G4 has a Radeon 9200 and may in the near future have a 5200-neither of which I want to give up since I've optimized the computer for OS X, and the Yikes! still has a Rage 128. I have a Radeon 7000 lying around that I was thinking about putting in the Yikes!, but if it would mean losing the ability to run Server I'll leave the Rage 128.

Hey BSpecial, let me know if you want a sawtooth with a dp 1.6ghz in it. PSU bad I think on the Sawtooth, CPU relatively new. I think there is an extra (new) 120gb hard drive in it, too. Make an offer if you are interested.

 

[bunnspecial]

Hey BSpecial, let me know if you want a sawtooth with a dp 1.6ghz in it. PSU bad I think on the Sawtooth, CPU relatively new. I think there is an extra (new) 120gb hard drive in it, too. Make an offer if you are interested.

PM Sent! Who made the processor upgrade?

 

[California]

PM Sent! Who made the processor upgrade?

PM'd you but it's not mine, so not 100 percent sure. But pretty sure I made him get a 120gb new hard drive x2 back in the day and he only used one of them.

 

[weckart]

Okay, I think I'm going to abandon any DPs, Rhapsody, and Server on this particular system. Server should run, and maybe I'll try to make it work.

I landed the B&W yesteday and picked it up immediately. It came with a 12GB Quantum Fireball drive full of company files and applications (does nobody wipe drives any more?) and an 8GB UW Seagate drive attached to the Adaptec 2940 card, which I assume is the standard supplied card. Well, Rhapsody DPs didn't like the system but while Server installed onto the Seagate it couldn't boot from it afterwards and kept reverting to the ATA HDD. Finicky.

The B&W was filthy inside around the Rage 128 and SCSI card so needs a good clean but compared with my Quicksilvers it is super, super quiet.

 

[Jkj12]

I also installed the Public Beta on my G4 Cube a while ago (I don't have that machine anymore) and 10.0 on my iBook G3. What a strange OS...

I have never used OSX versions older than 10.3. Why is 10.0 strange? Just because it unstable or does it have a significant "feel"??

 

[weckart]

I have never used OSX versions older than 10.3. Why is 10.0 strange? Just because it unstable or does it have a significant "feel"??

Anything before 10.2 is sluggish; opening windows or scrolling is not very smooth. Both 10.0 Beta and 10.0 retail were odd releases because you couldn't do very much with them except run OS9 in classic mode. There were no installable OSX applications to use with them, only the few stock apps bundled with the OS.

 

[bunnspecial]

Anything before 10.2 is sluggish; opening windows or scrolling is not very smooth. Both 10.0 Beta and 10.0 retail were odd releases because you couldn't do very much with them except run OS9 in classic mode. There were no installable OSX applications to use with them, only the few stock apps bundled with the OS.

In my experience with them, I would also add that they were fairly unstable, especially if you've upgraded your computers anything beyond their stock configuration.

For the brief time I used 10.0 on my Clamshell, it was actually okay but the only upgrade that has is a 512mb stick of RAM.

On my GigE, for example, I've had some teething pains with both PB and retail 10.0 due to the upgraded video card(GEForce 2MX) and the large amount of memory(2gb). It seems a lot happier running with a single, relatively small stick of RAM than with all four slots populated. If you read through this thread, you'll see that I had a terrible time even installing 10.0, with the installer crashing numerous times before I got a successful install.

10.0 was bad enough that Apple actually offered a free upgrade to 10.1. I was given an iMac G3 last summer that had all the original paperwork and so forth with it. The restore disk set actually installed 10.0(even though the system defaulted to booting into OS 9) and the original owner had the 10.1 upgrade CD stuck down in the packaging with it.

I've said it before on here and I stand by it-any computer I have that doesn't run Tiger(at a minimum) remains primarily an OS 9 computer-even though I'll generally have at least one version of OS X installed. Unless I have a specific program that requires an earlier OS, I consider a modern browser an essential part of the package. Tiger and OS 9 have this-older versions of OS X don't(unless you want to run Classilla in Classic Mode-in which case I'd rather just use OS 9).

The goal of this project was more as a museum/educational adventure to see how OS X has changed over the years and variations, but not to actually do any work in anything other than Tiger or Leopard.

One other thing-I think the software restore disks are very telling as to Apple's own opinion of OS X in the early days. With restore disk sets made prior to about late 2002(where 10.1 was the bundled version of OS X), when the disks are run, the computer will actually default to starting in OS 9. With the MDD G4s, last generation TiBooks, etc, 10.2 is installed by default and OS 9 is dumped on primarily for classic support(even though they still give a fully bootable OS 9 system folder).

 

[bunnspecial]

I didn't quite manage Rhapsody on the GigE(or at least not yet) but I'm currently installing Rhapsody DP2 on an 8600...

 

[weckart]

I didn't quite manage Rhapsody on the GigE(or at least not yet) but I'm currently installing Rhapsody DP2 on an 8600...

I just managed to install OSX DP1 on my B&W but hit a problem with the mouse (attached to the keyboard). Seems as if the B&W does not have enough juice through the USB port to power both under DP1 and it freezes. Need to get hold of an old school Powermac keyboard or find my ADB mouse.

I don't know how people managed to get real work done on this machine. Most fragile Mac I have ever used.

 

[eyoungren]

I don't know how people managed to get real work done on this machine. Most fragile Mac I have ever used.

When I got my very first job in the newspaper industry in Sept. '99 the Mac they assigned me was some gray tower. I assume an 8500 or something. At the time I wasn't a Mac fanatic so I never bothered to learn what it was.

In any case, I was there only for a month or so when a new guy was hired on and the department got new B&W G3s at the same time. The new guy got one of them on his first day. Some of the long time ad compositors there went nuts until they were given their own G3s.

That paper was a daily and it was (is) a Gannet test/research printshop as well so those G3s did real work on OS8 with Photoshop 4.0/5.0/5.5, Illy 8, QuarkXPress 4.04 and Freehand 8. Suitcase 3 was also just starting to be deployed to the department.

By the time I got upgraded it was because I had moved to a different office/department. They skipped the G3 with me and I ended up with an early Sawtooth G4 (the Graphic Designer's Mac they told me - well they let ME choose!) running OS9. The Yikes G4 behind me was running OS8.

But whenever I stopped back in to the main office my old department was still using the G3s.

But, yeah, I wouldn't even try anything on a G3 with an earlier version of OS X, particularly a DP. Not even on a G4. OS X sucked eggs until Jaguar was tamed. Panther was better though, IMO.

 

[bunnspecial]

I just managed to install OSX DP1 on my B&W but hit a problem with the mouse (attached to the keyboard). Seems as if the B&W does not have enough juice through the USB port to power both under DP1 and it freezes. Need to get hold of an old school Powermac keyboard or find my ADB mouse.

I don't know how people managed to get real work done on this machine. Most fragile Mac I have ever used.

I have a couple of B&Ws kicking around, and love them.

One of them was given to me by the original owner, who had used it pretty regularly from the time it was bought up until 2011 or so. I had to stick a new optical drive in it. I also upgrade the RAM, and finally the OS to 9.2.2(it was still running the original 8.5.1 install when I got it). It's a "Rev. A"(one hard drive) and I think 300mhz(or maybe 350-I forget).

The others were part of the big lot of Macs I bought back in the fall. Both of them are 400mhz. One runs great with OS 9. The other I upgrade with a 450mhz G4 and a Radeon 9200. It tears through Tiger. I've been fiddling on and off with getting Leopard to run on it, which is theoretically possible but not straight forward. I have a flashed nVidia 5200 that I've been debating about installing, and most certainly will if I ever get Leopard installed.

To my knowledge, these are the only NWR Macs that have an ADB port. I know that many laptops used ADB internally, but the B&W is the only computer that actually has the port. I love this since I plug an AEKII into one and have it be fully functional. A modern optical mouse in combination with the AEKII makes for a killer combination.

 

[bunnspecial]

In another thread, member ctmpkmlec4 told me that I should try installing a CD-ROM drive(only) to help with installing Server 1.2v3. I asked if I needed an Apple OEM drive, or if a generic CD-ROM drive would work. He didn't know, but thought it would probably work.

In any case, I dug out my optical drive box from the back of the closet, and this was the first drive I pulled out. I dropped it in my Sawtooth and it worked fine, so I'll try it for installing Server on the GigE.

I'm actually not sure where it came from-I guess probably from a computer that I'd upgraded to a generic Combo drive.

 

[ctmpkmlec4]

I hope this solves the issue you're having. Swapping the DVD drive for the CD drive allowed me to complete the installation. Before the swap, it would hang at the splash screen. You know what they say: YMMV.

 

[weckart]

I have a couple of B&Ws kicking around, and love them.

I am on the fence about mine, although I think I have it mostly tamed now. It boots from the Quantum Fireball hard drive and I managed by sheer luck somehow to get it to open in OF and Single User mode. That allowed me to update the firmware on the SCSI card so that it boots from that, too. The only thing it is unreliable with is rebooting. I fare better shutting it down and starting up if I want to do anything interesting with it, like install DPs and the like.

This is what the webmaster of rhapsodyos.org (RacerX on MR) thinks of B&Ws. Still, it is the supposed optimum machine for Rhapsody. I still like the look of it and the ADB port is nice to have.

As far as I know and read, you should keep to stock Apple components for Rhapsody PPC and CD optical drives only. According to RacerX even the DVD drive on the better Lombard PowerBook is enough to fox the install process as the helper OS9 part of the install will see the drive but the Rhapsody installer won't and will crash. Even OSX DP1, which should be a little more advanced/compatible than Server 1.2 complained about my Apple Pro keyboard. Only way to find out is to try but not be too surprised if it doesn't work.

I dropped £5 on a pair of G4s yesterday. One is definitely a DA, so no use for anything Rhapsody related although I could cannibalise it for parts. The other has too fuzzy a picture to tell whether it is a Sawtooth or a Mystic. Will see when I pick those up and hoping for the latter.

 

[ctmpkmlec4]

Any success installing Rhapsody?

 

[bunnspecial]

Any success installing Rhapsody?

Not yet.

I stripped it down to the bare basics-the Apple CD-ROM drive shown above, only the hard drive I intended to install Rhapsody on, a Rage 128, and a single stick of Apple OEM 128mb PC-100.

I was having a really strange problem where the OS 9 part of the install would work fine, but when I rebooted the display would blank. I though it might have been the card going bad, so I swapped it out for another and got the same result. I was using the GigE stock ADC/VGA card connected to a 17" ADC Studio, although I did have the keyboard plugged directly into the computer and the mouse plugged into the keyboard as you had instructed.

I may try again with a PCI Rage 128 with a VGA display(I didn't have one handy that wasn't in use) and see if I can get any further.

Now Public Beta is also being difficult and hanging at the Happy Mac. I did a PRAM reset to no avail-I'm guessing I may have to start pulling RAM to get PB and 10.0 to boot reliably.

 

[weckart]

I picked up my two G4s yesterday. One was a Sawtooth as suspected, came with an Adaptec 2930 SCSI card, a Rage 128 Pro card with fan plus some dual port network card. Odd as it was not configured as a server. The other was meant to be a DA 733MHz but ended up as a QS 867MHz with no cards inside at all but did have two hard drives. Both machines were very dusty ex-company units. None of the drives was wiped.

I prepped the Sawtooth by giving it a good clean. Electronically all ok save for a missing PRAM battery. I grabbed one of the drives from the QS and used it for installing Server 1.2. All proceeded without incident and, unlike the B&W, the Sawtooth was happy to power both mouse and keyboard off one USB port.

Rhapsody does not offer much tweaking of hardware and so the screen resolution is stuck at 1280x1024 max.

Some screenshots at 1024x768:

a. Desktop with the Workspace Manager
b. Desktop showing tear away menus. Note the Mac OS option near the bottom of the Apple menu. This creates and starts the Mac OS virtual image. This is how Rhapsody dealt with 'Classic' mode as Mac OS will not install on a UFS drive unless somebody knows differently.
c. Construction of the MacOS virtual drive image. Server 1.2v3 runs 8.6.
d. Mac OS 8.6 running under Rhapsody. Note that the boot drive appears as a mounted image, which is what it is rather than a fixed hard drive. Mac OS control settings are governed by Rhapsody so no higher screen resolutions, no more than one USB port or CPU recognised and Firewire still does not work.

 

[redheeler]

@bunnspecial, I'm thinking of eventually starting a similar project on a Digital Audio G4 733. Will Mac OS X Public Beta run on one of those, and what's the max GPU it will run on?

 

[bunnspecial]

@bunnspecial, I'm thinking of eventually starting a similar project on a Digital Audio G4 733. Will Mac OS X Public Beta run on one of those, and what's the max GPU it will run on?

It should work-PB was current when the DA was released, although I've never tried it.

As far as GPUs, I've used it with a 2MX twin-view, but don't know for sure beyond that. A Radeon 7500 should be okay too.

I'll do some experimenting and report back.

 

[redheeler]

As far as GPUs, I've used it with a 2MX twin-view, but don't know for sure beyond that. A Radeon 7500 should be okay too.

So a GeForce 4MX won't work?

 

[bunnspecial]

So a GeForce 4MX won't work?

Not sure. My "gut" is no but I will try to test later this evening.

 

[redheeler]

Not sure. My "gut" is no but I will try to test later this evening.

Did you ever try this?

 

[bunnspecial]

Did you ever try this?

Sorry-got caught up with teaching(summer classes move at 100 mph) and haven't had time for much of anything computer related. The GigE in question does currently have a 4Ti installed, so if it will work with that a 4MX should work. As I said, though, I'll need to play around with what works and what doesn't(the unfortunate fact of this computer is that-even though every version of OS X is installed-I often have to tinker with hardware configurations to optimize each version).

 

[redheeler]

Sorry-got caught up with teaching(summer classes move at 100 mph) and haven't had time for much of anything computer related. The GigE in question does currently have a 4Ti installed, so if it will work with that a 4MX should work. As I said, though, I'll need to play around with what works and what doesn't(the unfortunate fact of this computer is that-even though every version of OS X is installed-I often have to tinker with hardware configurations to optimize each version).

Why did you go with a Gigabit Ethernet and not a Digital Audio? Just curious as to your reasoning, since I now have both models.