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ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,677
111
USA
-hh said:
The downside is purely financial, from a "sunk investment" standpoint.
...
Actually, its the opposite: if they were consumables like batteries, then the change in format isn't that big of a deal. So its a problem for the very reason that they are "infinitely reusable".

For example, I now have roughly 10GB worth of higher speed CF cards. Even with the crashing in prices, at $50 per GB, this is $500 worth of sunk costs in durables that I'm looking at obsoleting because of a change from CF to SD. If I had my druthers, I'd rather put that money into something else, such as glass.
If you purchased $500 in compact flash cards, it means you needed that capacity for a camera body that uses them.

If you purchase another camera body -- and let's assume this new body also uses CF cards -- would you then have an under-supply of CF cards?

If all of your CF cards are used in Body 1, then you will need to buy new CF cards for use in Body 2.

However, if instead you have simply purchased too many CF cards and are now looking at a stockpile of excess, then the Nikon D80 will not help. But you can still use those cards in the existing body.

You made that investment in CF cards for Body 1. There are cameras that will continue to use CF cards, so even if you retire Body 1 in the future there is a good chance you can still use those CF cards in a new body.

Because the price of CF and SD cards is low and getting lower, I don't see any big deal with the Nikon D80 being an SD body rather than a CF body. My own shooting habits would require me to buy a 2GB SD card or perhaps a 4GB SD card and I'm done. Not a big deal.

I'll continue to use my 4GB, 1GB, and 2GB CF cards on:

1. My D200 body
2. My Olympus C7070
3. My older Canon PowerShot G2
4. A newer more advanced Nikon body
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
ksz said:
If you purchased $500 in compact flash cards, it means you needed that capacity for a camera body that uses them.

If you purchase another camera body -- and let's assume this new body also uses CF cards -- would you then have an under-supply of CF cards?

Yes and No.

My current quantity is based on having the capability of not needing to offload to a computer or digital wallet for at least 2 days.

If I were to double my consumption with a second camera (unlikely), the amount of time I could spend "off the grid" would simply be cut in half, to one day.

It depend on what I'm doing/where I'm going as to if this is going to be a problem or not. For example, when I was planning for a cruise last Winter, I knew that the ship's cabin would have power every night, so 1 Day's worth of cards would be be adequate, but when I started doing my research for going to Africa this summer, the details regarding the reliability of power in the camps looked marginal, so I prepared under the assumtion that I'd not have power every day, so I doubled my number of CF cards.

For hiking the Inca Trail, you're looking at ~4 days without recharging power and ~6 days away from data backup, due to weight limitations.

And so forth.


If all of your CF cards are used in Body 1, then you will need to buy new CF cards for use in Body 2.

Not really. Since there's only one of me, I can't be consuming on both cameras so as to double my consumption rate. And while I might want to have some additional quantity, my greater interest is in having the flexibility to adapt and adjust - - this means component interchangability, of both the Flash Media as well as the camea lenses.


You made that investment in CF cards for Body 1. There are cameras that will continue to use CF cards, so even if you retire Body 1 in the future there is a good chance you can still use those CF cards in a new body.

That's what I'm hoping for too, but my concern is merely that the D80 appears to be more evidence that the CF format is in decline as a standard, which means that my future options are more likely to be limited.

If the price per 1GB of Extreme III on SD cards was $10 today, I'd not be concerned about any of this. But because its not...



-hh
 

ScubaDuc

macrumors 6502
Aug 7, 2003
257
0
Europe
-hh said:
Yes and No.

That's what I'm hoping for too, but my concern is merely that the D80 appears to be more evidence that the CF format is in decline as a standard, which means that my future options are more likely to be limited.

If the price per 1GB of Extreme III on SD cards was $10 today, I'd not be concerned about any of this. But because its not...

-hh


Will all do respect for CF memory prices, I would argue that they are still minimal with respect to the cost of lenses....That is why I would be willing to spend more for a "native" 24x36 if it supported AI lenses and had a build in VR in the body
 

beavo451

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2006
483
2
ScubaDuc said:
Will all do respect for CF memory prices, I would argue that they are still minimal with respect to the cost of lenses....That is why I would be willing to spend more for a "native" 24x36 if it supported AI lenses and had a build in VR in the body

The cost of lenses is always going to be high. I don't think it is a valid argument at all. With the progression in technology, you can't always expect new technology to work with 30 to 40 year old technology. Besides, the AI lenses will mount and shoot fine on current Nikon dSLRs. Only some will meter and the others you have to either use a light meter or guess and check the histogram.

Canon realized the foolishness of trying to stay backwards compatible when they made the switch from the FD mount to the EF (EOS) mount. Look at where they are at right now in terms of use and market share.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Like hh, I'm concerned about the future vis-a-vis CF cards, SD cards, xD cards and whatever else comes along. I've been using digital cameras since my first Coolpix 900 and through the years have built up quite a little collection of CF cards. Usually as I bought a new camera I would need a greater amount of memory in the CF card so would purchase one, but could still use my other cards for those times when I don't need a lot of memory for one shooting session. Still do that. For instance when I bought my D200 I popped a 512 MB card in it for my first few test shots. Eventually when I began shooting RAW I bit the bullet and bought a 4 GB card, so now my "collection" spans the full gamut from 4 MB (the CF card which came with my first Coolpix) to 4 GB! I have an investment in these things even though that has come gradually over a long period of time.

I have several cameras which use the CF card format and it is quite convenient to be able to shuffle the cards around accordingly. If I want to go out and shoot with two cameras, no problemo, or if I want to take one camera and every CF card I own on a long trip with me, I can do that. I feel that the CF cards are sturdier and less susceptible to damage and loss than the tiny SD or xD cards.

Last summer I was away from home unexpectedly and for a longer time than I'd anticipated, and had not taken a camera with me. Eventually I bought a small P&S which uses SD cards. In January, in preparation for the trip to SF I bought yet another P&S, the excellent Fujifilm E900, for which I then had to buy a couple of xD cards. Now I've got all these different card formats so presumably am prepared for any situation, but when it comes right down to it my preference will always be for CF cards and cameras which use them.
 

ScubaDuc

macrumors 6502
Aug 7, 2003
257
0
Europe
beavo451 said:
The cost of lenses is always going to be high. I don't think it is a valid argument at all. With the progression in technology, you can't always expect new technology to work with 30 to 40 year old technology. Besides, the AI lenses will mount and shoot fine on current Nikon dSLRs. Only some will meter and the others you have to either use a light meter or guess and check the histogram.

Canon realized the foolishness of trying to stay backwards compatible when they made the switch from the FD mount to the EF (EOS) mount. Look at where they are at right now in terms of use and market share.


What have they changed in technology that make today's optics better than what we had in the Nikkor range 30 yrs ago? Honestly, I prefer manual focus anyway and I like to set the diaphram to control depth. Many here are planning on getting...ONE zoom lens with their body.... It is the 1.5 factor that's buggin me...:rolleyes:

I have been using Nikon cameras for 30 years and I have never had the slightest interest in Canon so I can't really comment but I know that Nikon will release a full frame reflex, they sidelined it a few years ago due to cost but I am confident that it will come, maybe in the shape of a D3/D3X soon enough..;)
 

beavo451

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2006
483
2
ScubaDuc said:
What have they changed in technology that make today's optics better than what we had in the Nikkor range 30 yrs ago? Honestly, I prefer manual focus anyway and I like to set the diaphram to control depth. Many here are planning on getting...ONE zoom lens with their body.... It is the 1.5 factor that's buggin me...:rolleyes:

I have been using Nikon cameras for 30 years and I have never had the slightest interest in Canon so I can't really comment but I know that Nikon will release a full frame reflex, they sidelined it a few years ago due to cost but I am confident that it will come, maybe in the shape of a D3/D3X soon enough..;)

VR/IS, AF-S/USM, better glass, possibly more precise building process

Prefering manual focus is a moot point because the lenses and bodies are capable of it. They only thing that drags it down is the smaller viewfinders on the consumer cameras and lack of splitscreen. However, Katz has splitscreens available for all the Nikon cameras. Avoid the G lenses and you still have an aperture ring. Where do you come up with only one zoom lens? Most people I know buy at least two (wide-mid range and telephoto).

An option is to use a film camera and a film scanner.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,677
111
USA
-hh said:
It depend on what I'm doing/where I'm going as to if this is going to be a problem or not. For example, when I was planning for a cruise last Winter, I knew that the ship's cabin would have power every night, so 1 Day's worth of cards would be be adequate, but when I started doing my research for going to Africa this summer, the details regarding the reliability of power in the camps looked marginal, so I prepared under the assumtion that I'd not have power every day, so I doubled my number of CF cards.

For hiking the Inca Trail, you're looking at ~4 days without recharging power and ~6 days away from data backup, due to weight limitations.
That true, but it's also possible that you will find yourself in situations where it's practical to bring along only 1 camera body. This is the situation most of the time for me at least. In this case the camera that offers the most rugged weather-sealed construction will be the obvious choice. In this case your entire collection of CF cards would be used and not wasted.

In order for the "sunk investment" argument to hold, you have to show that you will never again use your entire collection of CF cards if you were to purchase a D80. This would be true if you would always carry both camera bodies on every trip thereby having to leave excess CF cards at home.

And while I might want to have some additional quantity, my greater interest is in having the flexibility to adapt and adjust - - this means component interchangability, of both the Flash Media as well as the camea lenses.
Component interchangeability makes sense if you have only 1 lens of a particular type. Since this lens cannot be on both bodies at once, it must be shareable. However, CF and SD cards are cheap and getting cheaper. This means one can purchase additional memory cards for the very purpose of NOT having to share them between camera bodies.

I agree that there is additional inconvenience of having to carry both CF and SD cards, but again I believe this is no big deal. The D80 is smaller and lighter than the D200 partly because of the switch to a smaller memory card format. Smaller and lighter (and cheaper) offsets the additional cost of SD memory cards in my opinion.
 

ScubaDuc

macrumors 6502
Aug 7, 2003
257
0
Europe
beavo451 said:
VR/IS, AF-S/USM, better glass, possibly more precise building process

Prefering manual focus is a moot point because the lenses and bodies are capable of it. They only thing that drags it down is the smaller viewfinders on the consumer cameras and lack of splitscreen. However, Katz has splitscreens available for all the Nikon cameras. Avoid the G lenses and you still have an aperture ring. Where do you come up with only one zoom lens? Most people I know buy at least two (wide-mid range and telephoto).

An option is to use a film camera and a film scanner.


Indeed, I have a Coolpix V film scanner but I doubt that an 18-200 will perform as well as my 20 mm fixed lens or my 200 mm IF, nor will it be as versatile as the 55 micro-nikkor. The point I was making is that some, like me, have a small fortune invested in lenses already (about 15 nikkor AI lenses for F3) and that the cost of a similar lens system for the newer APS sized cameras is higher then the additional cost of paying for a D3 nikon body when it will come out with native 24 x 36... I'll just add a VR zoom and I would be all set with all the lenses I have....
 

beavo451

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2006
483
2
ScubaDuc said:
Indeed, I have a Coolpix V film scanner but I doubt that an 18-200 will perform as well as my 20 mm fixed lens or my 200 mm IF, nor will it be as versatile as the 55 micro-nikkor. The point I was making is that some, like me, have a small fortune invested in lenses already (about 15 nikkor AI lenses for F3) and that the cost of a similar lens system for the newer APS sized cameras is higher then the additional cost of paying for a D3 nikon body when it will come out with native 24 x 36... I'll just add a VR zoom and I would be all set with all the lenses I have....

I am still quite confused though. You can mount and use all your AI lenses perfectly fine on all current Nikon dSLRs. You don't need to buy lenses if you don't want too.
 

ScubaDuc

macrumors 6502
Aug 7, 2003
257
0
Europe
beavo451 said:
I am still quite confused though. You can mount and use all your AI lenses perfectly fine on all current Nikon dSLRs. You don't need to buy lenses if you don't want too.


I know the D200 supports exposure reading with AI lenses but I have the 1.5 factor that makes my 20 mm turn into a 30 mm. My 28 mm Prospective Control Nikkor wont be much of a wide angle at 43 mm and so fourth. True, my 200 mm would become a 300 mm but I already have the 500 mm reflex...

However, the D50, D70, D100 do not support exposure metering with AI lenses
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
ksz said:
For hiking the Inca Trail...
That true, but it's also possible that you will find yourself in situations where it's practical to bring along only 1 camera body...In this case your entire collection of CF cards would be used and not wasted.

One body or a dozen, the utility is in having the flexibility to customize and tailer the equipment for different shoots because it is configured to be able to share within a common pool as assets. Flash media is one example, lenses another and strobes are a third. If the asset interfaces were not standardized, then I would have to buy more of each of them because I've lost the ability to borrow.


In order for the "sunk investment" argument to hold, you have to show that you will never again use your entire collection of CF cards if you were to purchase a D80. This would be true if you would always carry both camera bodies on every trip thereby having to leave excess CF cards at home.

I don't think I agree. The Flash Media's size/mass is insignificant - its cost was not. My point is that it bothers me to have a "worth $500" asset sitting around that can't be utilized as well because of an IMO arbitrary change by the manufacturer to the "Latest and Greatest".

Skipping ahead slightly, I don't contest that the D80 is slightly smaller and slightly lighter than the D200, partly because of the Media switch, but when I strap on a 3.6lb (1600 gram) 70-200 f/2.8 IS lens, that tiny size/weight savings is profoundly insignificant. Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Component interchangeability makes sense if you have only 1 lens of a particular type. Since this lens cannot be on both bodies at once, it must be shareable.

One can only shoot one camera at a time too. In any event, the choice of gear in the kit bag is always a trade-off of multiple variables, not the least of which are intended application, weight/size constraints and budget constraints...it used to occasionally make sense to have two bodies each with identical lenses on them in the days of finite film handling (I once talked with Howard Hall's "camera sherpa" - he would carry up to five Nikonos rigs for Howard on each dive, becuase you can't change film underwater), but with digital today and the ability to quickly change ISO, etc, these days are effectively over.


However, CF and SD cards are cheap and getting cheaper. This means one can purchase additional memory cards for the very purpose of NOT having to share them between camera bodies.

Sure. This is why I put a $10/GB price point on where IMO the format change wouldn't be a big deal.

YMMV on what your personal "no longer care" price point is, but I don't think that I'm going too far out on a limb when I observe that the current price (for Extreme III) is still over $50/GB that that is yet down to the "trivial expense - ignore" level for most folks.


I agree that there is additional inconvenience of having to carry both CF and SD cards, but again I believe this is no big deal...Smaller and lighter (and cheaper) offsets the additional cost of SD memory cards in my opinion.

By my ear (and context), what you're claiming is that you're willing to lay out $500 if it shaves two ounces off of a 20lb camera bag, even if it also makes your overall systems less flexible. You can do this right now by cutting the metal buckles off your camera bag and super-glueing the straps back in place...I'll split the cost savings with you :D


-hh
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,677
111
USA
The D80 may not be suitable for you, but that does not invalidate Nikon's reasons for using SD instead of CF. For me, the use of SD is no big deal at all. I don't need Sandisk Extreme IIIs when much cheaper high-speed products are available from PQI, Kingston, and others. Further, the price is low and coming down. The very top end might cost $50 per gigabyte, but even that price will fall.

If you're a professional or even an amateur who needs tens of gigabytes of high speed flash memory that is itself weather sealed, then you are not a member of the demographic for whom the D80 is aimed. You'll just have to shop for something else. Seems wasteful to buy weather-sealed Extreme-III cards when the camera body itself isn't weather sealed.
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
ksz said:
I don't need Sandisk Extreme IIIs when much cheaper high-speed products are available from PQI, Kingston, and others.

FWIW, I was referring to Extreme III's merely to indicate a fast (133x) card of a reputable brand (sorry, but I've never heard of "PQI", nor "Corsair" or "Patriot" which popped up on Pricewatch). Looking at Kingston's website, their 1GB SD 133x cards are currently at the $50/GB price point I mentioned.


Further, the price is low and coming down. The very top end might cost $50 per gigabyte, but even that price will fall.

Which is why I've been saying "no longer will be a big deal to me when price hits X". FWIW, also be aware that I've been effectively "depreciating" my sunk cost in CF cards by using the current prices instead of how much I originally paid for it.

If you're a professional or even an amateur who needs tens of gigabytes of high speed flash memory that is itself weather sealed...

I wasn't even aware that Sandisk's stuff is waterproof: I'm differentiating first on I/O speed, then other factors.


Overall, I thought that my point was really quite simple: just show me an SD card that's 133x or faster, of a clearly reputable brand, that their 1GB card is under $10, or their 2GB card is under $20.

IMO, they're not down to that price point today. Sure, maybe someday they'll get there, but I don't think that it is going to be anytime soon.

Do recall that retailers were able to get $100/GB for this product this last Holiday season. They would need to maintain their -50%/year rate of price reduction for another 2 years to get high speed cards down to the aforementioned $10/GB price point.

In the meantime, we're likely to see sensor density go up again, which increases how much storage capacity we want.

Perhaps a better way to look at this whole thing is the "Cost per Stored Image", since that's probably more the way that we should be looking at the question of how many/size cards we need to carry: our ultimate product of value isn't 0's/1's, but retained images.

To this end, if we want a 300 image (assume JPEG+RAW) capacity, then with an 8MP dSLR, we need around 4GB of storage. For the 1GB card that costs $50 and stored 75 images, this works out to be $0.67/image.

Progress occurs. Card prices have come down by 50%, but the new camera is now 12MP, so instead of getting 75/GB, we're now getting 45/GB, so our costs now work out to $25/45 = $0.55/image. So while we are making progress, its really only a 20% effective reduction in costs, rather than what initially looked to be a 50% savings. The "not important" schedule just got pushed further out to the right.


-hh
 

beavo451

macrumors 6502
Jun 22, 2006
483
2
-hh said:
FWIW, I was referring to Extreme III's merely to indicate a fast (133x) card of a reputable brand (sorry, but I've never heard of "PQI", nor "Corsair" or "Patriot" which popped up on Pricewatch). Looking at Kingston's website, their 1GB SD 133x cards are currently at the $50/GB price point I mentioned.
-hh

FYI Those three brands are among some of the most respected companies in the memory market.
Especially Corsair.
 

Passante

macrumors 6502a
Apr 16, 2004
860
0
on the sofa
I like the new SD cards that fold into direct USB connectable devices. No more card readers to lug around.

6 more days till the nikon announcement and 4 more days until MWDC keynote address. Its like Christmas in August!!!!
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,677
111
USA
-hh said:
Overall, I thought that my point was really quite simple: just show me an SD card that's 133x or faster, of a clearly reputable brand, that their 1GB card is under $10, or their 2GB card is under $20.
Here you go:

Transcend 150x SD card for $84.99 regular price. Oh yes, capacity is 4GB. This is $21 per GB.

PQI 133x SD card, 2GB, $44.99.

Here's a Patriot Extreme 4GB SD card, 133x, for $78.99 with $30 rebate for final price of $48.99. Cost per GB = $12.25.

All prices are from Fry's Electronics available through their online website (outpost.com).

I think $12.25 is close enough to your artificial limit of $10/GB.
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
ksz said:
Here you go:

Transcend 150x SD card for $84.99 regular price. Oh yes, capacity is 4GB. This is $21 per GB.

PQI 133x SD card, 2GB, $44.99.

Here's a Patriot Extreme 4GB SD card, 133x, for $78.99 with $30 rebate for final price of $48.99. Cost per GB = $12.25.

All prices are from Fry's Electronics available through their online website (outpost.com).

I think $12.25 is close enough to your artificial limit of $10/GB.

It is, and thanks for the follow-up. FWIW, while these prices surprise me, its a "good surprise" - it sounds like it might pay to become more familar with the reputations of brands other than just Sandisk/Lexar/Crucial/Kingston. Until now, I've immediately written off (ignored) the "fly-by-night looking" names that I didn't already know something about.


Which means my last question specific to the likelihood of me being interested in the Nikon D80 is....

...will Nikon be selling it with the Canon EF lens mount?

yeah, I know: a bad joke :D


-hh
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,677
111
USA
-hh said:
It is, and thanks for the follow-up. FWIW, while these prices surprise me, its a "good surprise" ...
You're welcome. :)

Quoting from a May 16, 2006 article:

http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6333235.html?industryid=2147
Prices for NAND flash fell by 30-40% in the first quarter depending on the density and further price erosion is likely, although not at the same rate.

Despite falling prices, the NAND flash memory market will grow 40% in 2006 to $14.8 billion. In fact, the NAND flash segment will have a compound annual growth rate of 31% through 2010 when the market will reach $33.4 billion, says researcher IC Insights.

Prices are falling because capacity still outpaces supply despite booming demand. Suppliers are competing fiercely for market share and new suppliers are entering the market or beefing up NAND capacity.

"As a result, it will be a buyer's market throughout this year. Buyers will have a lot of say on prices on a contract basis and on the spot market," says Brian Matas, an analyst for IC Insights.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,599
1,732
Redondo Beach, California
ksz said:
Seems wasteful to buy weather-sealed Extreme-III cards when the camera body itself isn't weather sealed.

I think even the lowest price cards are weather sealed. None of them open up and they are all just one part of solid molded plastic. putting the words "weather sealed" on the packages is like putting a "low fat" lable on bottled water. Yes it is in fact low in fat but show me some brand of bottled water that has fat. Same with the "shock resistant" lable. They all are.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,599
1,732
Redondo Beach, California
carletonmusic said:
It takes a much more rubust buffer to process a 16MP image than an 8MP image. That's why the 5D (12.8MP) has a max frame rate of 3fps and the 20D/30D (8.2MP) can both shoot at 5fps.

I believe that the 1Ds MII can go have a higher frame rate, but it takes the images around 8MP.

Buffers are cheap. what gets expensive and hard to make is the analoge to difital converter that sets between the sensor and the buffer. The information comming off the sensor is low level analog signal that needs to be ampliphied and digitized before it can be stored in a buffer. The ampliphier that live up stream of the A/D converter is a kep component. The gain setting on this amp is what we think of as "ISO". Getting this to work at 100,000,000 pixels per second with minial noise is not easy. But buffers that work at that speed range are not as hard to do.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,677
111
USA
ChrisA said:
I think even the lowest price cards are weather sealed. None of them open up and they are all just one part of solid molded plastic. putting the words "weather sealed" on the packages is like putting a "low fat" lable on bottled water. Yes it is in fact low in fat but show me some brand of bottled water that has fat. Same with the "shock resistant" lable. They all are.
From Sandisk's specifications:

  • Ideal for demanding photo shoots under severe weather conditions—heat, cold, wind, rain, snow, etc.
  • Built to perform in the most extreme environments and temperatures—from
    -13º F to 185º F​
    -25º C to 85º C​
  • Min 20MB/second** sequential read and write
  • Durable, reliable and thoroughly tested—temperature tested (heat and cold); shock and vibration tested (industrial-grade RTV included for CompactFlash)

RTV is an adhesive sealant.

For comparison here are specs from a couple of other manufacturers:

1. PQI 100x CF card:

Environment Operating 0℃~70℃

2. Kingston CompactFlash Ultimate 100x:

Operating Temperature — 32° F to 140° F (0° C to 60° C)

These manufacturers make no claims for suitability in extreme weather.
 
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