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Westside guy

macrumors 603
Oct 15, 2003
6,342
4,160
The soggy side of the Pacific NW
Anyone comparing this versus any higher-end 35mm camera really needs to take a better look at the specs (no continuous shutter; only 11 AF points; claimed significantly higher dynamic range; body is another 200g heaver than a high-end Nikon or Canon before taking lenses into consideration). These MF cameras aren't meant to compete in the same space at all.

Reading the announcement, it looks to me more like Pentax is after those shooters who'd love to give MF a try, but can't justify the cost of a Hassey. Perhaps they're trying to entice the die-hard serious film shooters by offering a lower cost of entry to the digital MF world.
 

toxic

macrumors 68000
Nov 9, 2008
1,664
1
Reading the announcement, it looks to me more like Pentax is after those shooters who'd love to give MF a try, but can't justify the cost of a Hassey. Perhaps they're trying to entice the die-hard serious film shooters by offering a lower cost of entry to the digital MF world.

then again, there was the Mamiya ZD from a couple years ago at $12000 new and it's been selling for ~$5000 used.

MF sensors are still smaller than the film sizes, too - 645 is 56x42mm, not 33x44 or 36x48 or whatever other sizes MF sensors have been. probably puts doubt into MF and LF film shooters.

I don't think this camera means that much in the long run. but let's see the reviews...
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Is it not perhaps harder to get 1% of a very competitive and cheaper market than 5% of a premium market (think Apple doing better by only aiming at the top percentages of the market)?

If you're able to compete as a premium brand, then yes it can be, but Pentax/Hoya can't get there- Hassy wins that, with Phase One right behind. They can't take the populist space either, unless Mamiya gives up.

This is great news for photographers. There is no way I'd buy a D3X when for a few dollars more (!) I could buy the Pentax. I don't want to spend that kind of money on a camera right now anyway.

If you think the only difference is "few dollars more" then you haven't thought it out. The lens choices for the Pentax AF lenses are pretty limited (I see a whopping 4 lens choices on B&H right now, one of which is a zoom.)

While I'm biased enough to have actually bought a D3x, I can't imagine ever picking the new Pentax over the H3D at the same price. In fact, I can't imagine going with the Pentax if it were even $3000 cheaper than the H3D- the Hassy is simply a much, much safer choice. As I said, unless Pentax is telegraphing that they've found a partner, this isn't good news for them- their CEO has said that Hoya can't float the Pentax camera division by itself- why would you invest in a high-end system from a company that says it can't afford to go it alone? That makes absolutely no sense at all unless they show that they don't *have* to go it alone.

SD cards are easier to manage than CF and nowadays have large capacities. Better two SD slots than one CF (on a pro camera, that is).

For what it's worth, the D3x has dual CF slots, not single.

By rights, if there is any common sense among photographers, one of the following scenarios should occur:

1. Nikon and Canon can't sell their highest end DSLRs (e.g. D3X) anymore

2. Nikon and Canon reduce the price of their highest end DSLRs

You have *got* to be joking. A limited-range camera by a company who after being acquired still can't float itself long-term on its camera business is going to stop the players with 90% of the market from selling their more-flexible high-end bodies? I don't think you understand the photography business. The Pentax is not competition for a D3x in 99% of the situations where a photographer is looking at the D3x.

Pricing for the high-end bodies is set as it is for many reasons, but while the margins are significnatly better than the lower-end high-volume cameras, if you think a single competitor will change that, then you should look at Sony's FF offerings and re-evaluate your position.

As far as common sense goes, I can tell you for sure that your evaluation of it lacks it. I looked at the H3D when I was evaluating my D3x purchase. I couldn't do 70% of my photography with a MF body- and I suspect I'm more typical of a D3x target buyer than most. So, that would mean having to maintain two separate camera systems, with backup bodies and lenses- even without looking at my standing capital investment in glass and a body that made a reasonable backup, the economics weren't good, when you add that in, you'd pretty-much have to be an idiot to switch systems without a distinct commercial advantage.

Sure, I could have changed my target markets, and gotten it to 70% achievable with a MF camera- but even then, there's no guarantee that Hassy, with their fourth digital body in the works will be economically viable in 5 years, let alone Pentax with their first!

If you were a 645N user, and were shooting Canon or Nikon for your main work and using the 645N for niche product/fashion work, then this camera is almost a no-brainer. Outside of that, it makes significantly less sense than the H3D sale.

For real competition in the market, you need 3 or 4 strong players. A market dominated by Nikon and Canon is not giving us the products that we want quickly or cheaply enough. Contax and Kodak messed up their FF cameras badly, delaying mass acceptance for such products for years. IMHO.

There are three strong players, Nikon, Canon and Sony. The rest of the market isn't as strong- if you look at the financials for the last 6 or so years, you can see that quite easily. Contax was never in the game, and I know a few photographers who still shoot with Kodaks- which were as good as they could get with the technology of the day, and still make great studio cameras.

Companies with CEOs who say they can't long-term support their camera division alone aren't going to be strong players. Hoya never wanted Pentax for its camera business, and despite the back-pedaling on the initial acquisition (when whatever deal they had to sell of the camera division apparently fell through,) those sort of statements wouldn't give me a lot of confidence that Pentax is going to be around long-term, let alone selling enough new lenses to do anything interesting with a medium format line.

The only thing that will affect the major costs associated with larger sensors in a significant way is a zero-defect process, which would make the sensor price differences completely into a sensors-per-wafer physical material cost difference, rather than an exponential one. That's not likely to happen in the next five years unless I've missed some significant developments in the semiconductor industry.
 

Pikemann Urge

macrumors 6502
Jan 3, 2007
276
0
melbourne.au
I don't think this camera means that much in the long run. but let's see the reviews...
Keeping in mind all the other posts above, this is key. If it performs well enough (whatever that might mean) it most certainly will take sales away from Canon's and Nikon's high-end. But that would be just a side-effect from being a great camera.
 

Gold89

macrumors 6502
Dec 17, 2008
263
0
UK
you're way overblowing the significance of this camera. MF SLRs hardly make a dent in the sales of 35mm SLRs. the best of them can only do ~1 fps, are extremely bulky and clunky, are slower to respond, can't track moving subjects, and can't do anything beyond ISO 400 with good results. they are pretty much only for studio and landscape photographers who need the highest resolution and image quality and aren't in a hurry.

There are plenty of photographers in this category. Quality vs features ;)
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
There are plenty of photographers in this category. Quality vs features ;)

Not really, flexibility is key for a working studio pro too. More importantly, there aren't a large number of photographers in this category who aren't *already* invested in a system. If Pentax thought they'd make dents into Canon or Nikon's high end with this camera, they'd be doing a global launch.

Doesn't seem like anyone in this thread is on a waiting list in Japan for this camera- so it can't be all that compelling, can it?
 

carlgo

macrumors 68000
Dec 29, 2006
1,806
17
Monterey CA
As a DX shooter, it would be fun to rent a FF and a MF for a day just to find out what they really offer.

No rentals around here. Are there mail-order rentals? Anyone have experiences with that?
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
As a DX shooter, it would be fun to rent a FF and a MF for a day just to find out what they really offer.

No rentals around here. Are there mail-order rentals? Anyone have experiences with that?

At their base, bigger files (for the most part) and more resolution for less reach and more width. Just like with film, you don't really "see" a difference when you're shooting- you just get more options when you use the output. If you really want to be amazed, skip MF and rent a LF scanning back for landscapes. I've been looking at renting a D3s to see if it really is publishable at ISO 12500 (a stop better than the stock D3, and much better than my D3x) and to also see what shooting at 9600 and above would give me in terms of results and capability. At least one of the online rental places rents FX bodies. Calumet used to rent MF gear, not sure what their current practice/policy is though. You will see more dynamic range with MF digital than with the smaller formats, and if you're paying attention to it, that will be more visible than the resolution differences at most viewing distances.

I went from primarily shooting a D2x (DX) to a D3x, and overall, my images have a higher quality in terms of detail and noise at higher ISOs than base. The default colors are a bit different, but nothing that you'd be concerned about unless shooting product or fashion, and both can be zeroed out with an Xrite Passport. While I still lust after the H4D in geek mode, I'd probably get a D3s before I'd get a Hassy because frankly while I can see the difference, it really doesn't make a difference for most of what I shoot- the D3x is more than enough resolution for my work and it's already annoying when you have to PS out bugs that are flying between you and your subject at 24MP, let alone skin blemishes and stray eyelashes- there's a point where more resolution means more time per image- so if I were to go back to lugging LF gear around, it'd be worth it for amazingly detailed landscapes, but I'd be still reliant on the Nikons for most wildlife (and yes, I've shot wildlife with a 645 before) and I'm hoping to do some under-water stuff next year- and while D3x housings aren't cheap, compared to an H3D housing, they're bargains. I've considered an H3D with the current promotion for landscape work, and while it's tempting, I find I can normally get multiple shots out of the D3x and produce similar results by bracketing panos. When the wind doesn't cooperate, then I'm shooting an inferior image, but still quite good enough for my target markets.

Paul
 

Pikemann Urge

macrumors 6502
Jan 3, 2007
276
0
melbourne.au
Doesn't seem like anyone in this thread is on a waiting list in Japan for this camera- so it can't be all that compelling, can it?

Well, the thing hasn't been tested yet. And if I were in the market for a D3X I most certainly would wait for this. If I couldn't wait I'd still consider one and sell the D3X eventually to fund it. If I don't need the Pentax then I don't need the D3X.

Back in the day before digital cameras, if you were serious about stock, you'd choose MF as long as the camera suited the subject matter. Now of course that was at least one generation back from mine. The analogy is suitable only in this regard: the Nikon F3 was a top class 35mm camera, especially with Ektar 25, but if you had the cash for MF gear you'd shoot with that where circumstances allowed, despite the slower operation and having no 120 Ektar 25 (IIRC).

It's a messed up analogy but those with clear vision will understand the main idea of my point. All our preferences are different, of course.
 

toxic

macrumors 68000
Nov 9, 2008
1,664
1
Well, the thing hasn't been tested yet. And if I were in the market for a D3X I most certainly would wait for this. If I couldn't wait I'd still consider one and sell the D3X eventually to fund it. If I don't need the Pentax then I don't need the D3X.

Back in the day before digital cameras, if you were serious about stock, you'd choose MF as long as the camera suited the subject matter. Now of course that was at least one generation back from mine. The analogy is suitable only in this regard: the Nikon F3 was a top class 35mm camera, especially with Ektar 25, but if you had the cash for MF gear you'd shoot with that where circumstances allowed, despite the slower operation and having no 120 Ektar 25 (IIRC).

the limitations of 35mm aren't the same for digital as they are for film - grain size become an issue in prints much larger than 8x12.

moreover, MF sensors are still generations behind 35mm and APS sensors. they still use CCD and don't hold performance much beyond base ISO, among other design issues.

the Mamiya ZD was released in 2008 at 22MP (and even if you think MP's are the only factor in resolution, the only competitor was the 21MP 1DsIII) and $12000, with great IQ and much better support than Pentax can offer. did it make a dent in 1Ds or D3 sales? hardly. you can get one for $5000 used.

the 645D would have to offer something amazing to have any significant impact. I don't see it coming from a troubled company like Pentax.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Well, the thing hasn't been tested yet. And if I were in the market for a D3X I most certainly would wait for this. If I couldn't wait I'd still consider one and sell the D3X eventually to fund it. If I don't need the Pentax then I don't need the D3X.

Back in the day before digital cameras, if you were serious about stock, you'd choose MF as long as the camera suited the subject matter. Now of course that was at least one generation back from mine. The analogy is suitable only in this regard: the Nikon F3 was a top class 35mm camera, especially with Ektar 25, but if you had the cash for MF gear you'd shoot with that where circumstances allowed, despite the slower operation and having no 120 Ektar 25 (IIRC).

It's a messed up analogy but those with clear vision will understand the main idea of my point. All our preferences are different, of course.

I've owned 5x7, 4x7, 6x7, 6x6, 645, 35mm, FX, DX, APS, 110 and Polaroid cameras. If you were "serious" about stock, you shot 4x5. I don't know many stock shooters (or frankly many people shooting for publication) who shot a print film- most shot positives- mostly RVP for anything non-urban that didn't need skin tones (I always shot mine at EI 80 and did a one stop push in the Kodak 6 step kit to get more contrast.) The main reason for shooting positives was you could still submit to a magazine and make your clip off a location up-front and down the road as stock.

In terms of film cameras, the body mattered so much less than the glass, film and processing that it't not funny- any particular film processed any particular way by any particluar lab and shot through a particular lens- that is to say an F3 mattered not one whit over an FM over an 8008s in terms of the resultant image. So, I'll call your "top class" and "especially with." No doubt the F3 is a nice body, but upon introduction, the body it replaced was worth more used than the F3 was new (The F2AS was the last all-mechanical Nikon body.) By the time the F3 came out, the M645 was what- 14? Surely anyone spending $1400ish on a 35mm camera would have gone the used M645 route if their subjects were 645-appropriate, or at the least with a TLR (I had a C-330.)

Again though, I can't imagine why anyone would go with Pentax at this point in time. The 'Blad sale makes it a no-brainer if you're looking for MF, which again is still a niche market. Why anyone in the business of shooting would go Pentax over an H3D at the same price puzzles me a lot- more lenses, more second body options, more rental options, more of a chance of staying afloat- there's nothing compelling about going Pentax for MF at this point if you're not already a 645N user or you just like to gamble with large sums of money.

The main difference between a D3x and MF is going to be in DR, and that's only useful to a degree that's not offset by the flexibility of the 35mm lens line-up. If you're shooting high-end ads, or high-end fashion, then you're already shooting an H3D and you're probably in line for an H4D (because with the Hassy, you really did't have to wait for the reviews to see if it's going to be worth it.) Outside of that- really high-end portraiture guys and really high end wedding guys are looking at MF- but again, Hassy or P-One, why would you stake your high-end business on a camera by a manufacturer who says they can't strategically fund their camera manufacturing business? If you're pulling those clients, then the price between the new H4D series and the Pentax doesn't really matter over a single season, let alone the life of the body.

The D3x is good enough to encroach on MF territory, (Imatest has it beating one or two of the low-end backs) but none of the MF systems are flexible enough to encroach on 35mm territory. This camera is so not a threat to the Mk IV or 3x it's not even funny. Even if it were just a pure price war, you'd see the Sony FX bodies picking up an extra 3-4% share- but if you've got $15,000 or so in Canon or Nikon glass, you're not likely to approach the problem from the "new system" angle. On the commercial side, the D3x is overkill for my clients' usage- but again, I'm more typical of a D3x buyer- and unlike you who keeps to the "If I were," I've had my D3x for coming up on a year now- so I'll just close with "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

Paul
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
moreover, MF sensors are still generations behind 35mm and APS sensors. they still use CCD and don't hold performance much beyond base ISO, among other design issues.

We're in agreement on most things, but to be fair, CCD sensors are still the platform of choice for scientific accuracy- while CMOS has closed the gap a lot, the CCD vs CMOS choice is almost entirely economic.

Paul
 

carlgo

macrumors 68000
Dec 29, 2006
1,806
17
Monterey CA
Nice detailed discussion. As for moving up, lots of people either are coming from a P&S or a DX system and so they don't have much that is transferable to a bigger system. Pros and advanced amateurs are the ones who are most likely to be guided by whatever they own now because they own a lot of it!

It might be that the market will be driven more by newcomers than old pros. If this is true, then we really don't know what will drive the market, but I will guess that there is a huge market out there for big sensors in small bodies. Even rich young people rarely carry a huge camera and lens around anymore.

I think the next "big" thing will be designs along the lines of the 4/3 systems, but with FX sensors and electronic viewfinders. Anyway, that is what I want.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Nice detailed discussion. As for moving up, lots of people either are coming from a P&S or a DX system and so they don't have much that is transferable to a bigger system. Pros and advanced amateurs are the ones who are most likely to be guided by whatever they own now because they own a lot of it!

People coming up from a P&S are generally not in the market for a $7000+ camera body. The market shakes out generally such that a smallish number of pros opt for the high-end pro bodies because they see an advantage in a feature or two that they will pay a premium for- the camera manufacturers make their margins and introduce new features at this level (though I think that's destined to change a bit.) Most pros, and the advanced amateurs are the sweet spot of the market, high-ish margins with decent volumes- that's been the "entry level" FX bodies for the last couple of years. Everyone else generally comes in at the low end, or the entry-level end, where they're looking at $500-800 of initial outlay.

It might be that the market will be driven more by newcomers than old pros. If this is true, then we really don't know what will drive the market, but I will guess that there is a huge market out there for big sensors in small bodies. Even rich young people rarely carry a huge camera and lens around anymore.

No, we do pretty-much know- the market has been growing for several years, but we're close to the point of contraction- in the next 2-3 years we'll reach the contraction point. We can look at sales and share figures for the last few years and see that consumer bodies like the D40 and XSi sold massive numbers of units, and after kit lenses, the Nikon 18-200 consumer superzoom was the heavy hitter. We've seen lens sales go from an average of 1.2-1.3 lenses/SLR in film days up to about 1.8 today. Only photo enthusiasts are interested in larger sensors- the general DSLR buyer could care less- and DX-sized sensors are generally "good enough," with each generation making them "good enough" for a whole new class of uses. The larger the sensor, the larger the lens- so MF cameras are pretty-much limited to prosumer and professional users who are willing to lug a lot of gear around.

I think the next "big" thing will be designs along the lines of the 4/3 systems, but with FX sensors and electronic viewfinders. Anyway, that is what I want.

I doubt we'll really see a viable FX body in that category soon- the DX cameras like the Samsung NX will do well enough, and the expense of a larger sensor is still exponential. That makes it difficult for "very good" to compete with "good enough." We've already got one poster in this thread whining that they can't get the camera they want at the price they want- when it comes down to it, more people "want" a high-end camera than put down the money for one by a very large margin. The image sensor is still the single-most expensive component in a DSLR- and the costs of sensors are directly related to how many you can get out of each wafer.

Go to:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

Scroll down to the "Cost of Producing Digital Sensors" portion of the page- here's the part that pays:

Assuming these factors (chips per wafer and yield) are most important, costs increase proportional to the square of sensor area (a sensor 2X as big costs 4X as much). Real-world manufacturing has a more complicated size versus cost relationship, but this gives you an idea of skyrocketing costs.

So, you're looking at DX with ~420mm^2 (depending on the manufacturer)
FX with ~865mm^2
645 with ~2325mm^2

Until we get to a zero-defect process or a way to map out defects dynamically, larger sensors are going to be much more expensive than smaller ones- and if smaller ones get to the "good enough" stage then people are going to be resistant to paying a premium for an incremental gain.

The main draw of EVIL cameras is the size, so going to FX kills that, though I suppose there is still a rangefinder argument to be had.

For another take on the costs with an actual formula, http://www.outbackphoto.com/dp_essentials/dp_essentials_01/essay.html has good data.

Remember, the wafers start out defect-free, it's the process that causes the problems, and the goal of the semiconductor industry is to reduce defects to build yields so they can be mroe profitable than those who can't do so. Despite that focus, we're still at the point we're at- that should say something about the class of the problem.

Paul
 

toxic

macrumors 68000
Nov 9, 2008
1,664
1
We're in agreement on most things, but to be fair, CCD sensors are still the platform of choice for scientific accuracy- while CMOS has closed the gap a lot, the CCD vs CMOS choice is almost entirely economic.

Paul

problem is, I've yet to see a consumer photographic CCD that outdoes a CMOS, except that it can replace a leaf shutter.
 
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