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iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,586
229
I have a somewhat slight problem. All my big software is legit (FCP, Shake, Motion, Adobe CS, yada yada). It's the small stuff I tend to take more, which I think is worse cause those small time developers need the money the most. I usually make up for it though. I only download shareware I find useful and need, and I show these programs to my customers. In exchange the developer will usually send me a serial if I simply ask. As for music, well we won't go there. I buy select music from my most favorite bands but thats hardly it. With movies I buy all my DVD's. But with Popcorn, MactheRipper and that hidden Dual Layer 16x drive that Apple didn't tell us about in our G5's, it's getting really tempting to start copying movies.

I think one problem with Tiger is a lot of people who download it now will download the final copy when it comes out. I don't have a problem with people downloading the betas although it is still wrong, but final copies are much more serious.

jon
 

Sabenth

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2003
887
3
UK
I wouldnt even bother dowloading betas let alone the final os to this day ive behaved with my mac and kept everything legal for a change theres just somthing about knowing u paid for a good quality OS and software that said some times it dose seem a bit steap to fork out a vast amount of money for a few million lines of code lol
 

billyboy

macrumors 65816
Mar 15, 2003
1,165
0
In my head
I am possibly mad because I like the feeling of paying bills! For much of my young adult life I bumbled along from one bill and late payment to another, and it was great to wake up one day with a steady income and a mind that realised that if you live within your means, life is very relaxed. So I do feel good about paying over for shareware, and $129 a pop for MAc OSX ispositively heavenly!

I like that set of stats demonstrating the extra 15% that is added to everyone's bill to cover piracy and fraud. It adds to my argument about the "stupidity" of so many younger (and sometimes almost grown-up people) who cant see the ramifications of pirating, especially as I have to finance their ignorance. (Or am I the stupid one for wasting time thinking things through?!!)

First off if you download a few hundred MBs of software or a movie - it isnt free, unless you get your internet costs paid for. And if you account for the incidental costs (electric) of having a computer on 24/7 to capture those movies that take a week to download 1kb at a time, is that free? Also when people rip off a DVD and convert it to div-x or similar. Have you seen how heavy that process is on the CPU? And if you have a laptop, with a burner that has a life span that doesnt last forever... So even with desktop muscle, that rip and burning pirate incurs a cost on hardware that gets conveniently forgotten. Renting movies isnt so dear afterall!

Then you have the wierd idea that there is no need to pay money to mega rich software houses (or movie makers), because they can afford it. First off, those companies employ normal folks who arent zillionaires, and if there is no financial reason for Mr Filthy rich to employ people to make a profitable product, where do those normal guys work? And a lot of software writers are oneman bands or private individuals who dont want to be rich, but do deserve some recognition for their efforts. But still some people dont see that, especially those who pirate software who work willing at their job for nothing, creating products that make other people money!!!! Yes, all none of them.

I really dont think the average Joe pirates know their own mind, so companies like Apple should go after their sorry deluded butts and make pleasant hay with their flawed arguments. Paying the market rate of $250,000 for a pirated copy of an Alpha OS would be a good lesson indeed.
 

Raiden

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2002
147
0
y'know I dont post here much but it pisses me off how apple does this. I totally understand going after the people who are bittorrenting the free tiger program and costing apple thousands of dollars.

But the people who are posting screenshots? WTF. The papparatsi (sp?) take naked pics of lindsay lohan and get away with it...car sleuths take pics of the new Z06 2006 Corvette, and they get away with it. Why the hell cant people take pics and post comments about apple software?

That is soooo rediculous. **** apple I am still going to find screenshots and reviews of new features. If they want to sue me for looking at them, fine. Ill just beat steve jobs down with the 2500 dollar Powerbook I bought from him 3 months ago...
 

LEgregius

macrumors member
Jun 13, 2003
81
10
Virginia
I like the torrents of the Gold Masters for one reason - I can download a copy and install iit while waiting for my preorder to come in :). I did it with 10.3 and got it a month or so before my cd's came in :). I wish companies had a way of distributing large software like this via some sort of secure torrents so I could buy it and download it as soon as it's available rather than wait for cd printing.

Other than that, I am more than willing to pay for Mac OS X to cover apple's development costs, especially with the great job they do. I still don't think Apple loses a significant amount of money on torrent downloads. People who love macs and bought macs are probably willing to buy the software if they need it. They people who pirate mostly wouldn't have bought it anyway, so piracy just gets the new OS more market share, which is worth a lot to Apple. People pirated before the internet was big. I always knew someone who had some copy of software and was offering to share. I always thought they were silly because almost no one used the software they pirated. Paying for all of your software keeps your drive unclutted too :).

Anyway, I'm rambling, so I'll stop now.
 

jxyama

macrumors 68040
Apr 3, 2003
3,735
1
Raiden said:
But the people who are posting screenshots? WTF. The papparatsi (sp?) take naked pics of lindsay lohan and get away with it...car sleuths take pics of the new Z06 2006 Corvette, and they get away with it. Why the hell cant people take pics and post comments about apple software?

and those people are often sued and found guilty too.

but those are different beasts. your lindsay lohan example is an invasion of privacy. car sleuths are tresspassing. people who leak apple's info is violating an NDA agreement they explicited signed when they received the builds. there's absolutely no room for argument about the legality of what they are doing.
 

jxyama

macrumors 68040
Apr 3, 2003
3,735
1
LEgregius said:
Other than that, I am more than willing to pay for Mac OS X to cover apple's development costs, especially with the great job they do.

sorry to nitpick, but what's with the attitude? you make it sound like you are doing apple a favor by paying. "willing to pay"??? :rolleyes:

it's their product. if you want one, of course you pay.
 

ryanw

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2003
307
0
MacsRgr8 said:
Feel the same about music downloads? I pay alot through ITMS, but still many of my friends still download the same songs illegally...
No offence intended, but it should make you feel good that you deservedly get the Tiger builds. You shouldn't care about the illegal downloads.

I think the music situation is a little different as Steve himself explained. Downloading music for $0.99 a track is worth every penny. Just knowing it was encoded correctly and the entire song is there. Nothing sucks worse than being on the road listening to a 700mb mp3 cd and having to constantly skip tracks that are encoded poorly, end early, or are live recordings or remakes instead of the original. (live tracks and remakes can be good.. but you know what I mean)

I know you can download 192bit mp3s or whatever, but I can hear the difference EASILY between an MP3 and a raw CD track. I might be going deaf, but I cannot distinguish between an AAC track and the raw track. I've purchased several tracks in iTunes that I own CDs of to try to hear the difference and I just can't. Not on my best studio monitors or headphones.
 

visor

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2003
341
0
in bed
desdomg said:
Perhaps if Apple started to pay and treat their employees better then there wouldnt be any leaks - we all know that workers take the benefits they beleive they are entitled to.

worthless fart - we're talking about 3rd party seeds.
 

LEgregius

macrumors member
Jun 13, 2003
81
10
Virginia
jxyama said:
sorry to nitpick, but what's with the attitude? you make it sound like you are doing apple a favor by paying. "willing to pay"??? :rolleyes:

it's their product. if you want one, of course you pay.

Oh, sorry. I was merely saying their product is more than worth the money. I meant that as a totally positive statement. No attitude here.
 

jxyama

macrumors 68040
Apr 3, 2003
3,735
1
LEgregius said:
Oh, sorry. I was merely say their product is more than worth the money. I meant that as a totally positive statement. No attitude here.

yeah, sorry, i couldn't tell.

but i know there are people out there (not you, obviously) who think nothing of getting a free ride. i continue to pay, i have my principles, but it still pisses me off that they have no respect for intellectual properties.
 

visor

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2003
341
0
in bed
feeze said:
Welcome to the world of piracy!!!!!

This is not about piracy - it's about NDA contracts. "Non Disclosure Agreement" usualy means you are not allowed to talk to anyone about what you're getting.
If I break an NDA i signed for my company, in contract with another company - I'll most likely be fired right away.
 

visor

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2003
341
0
in bed
Shaktai said:
Theft comes in many forms, and piracy is one of them. There are some very good statistics though that apply to fraud but also transfer over to most other forms of theft such as piracy and shoplifting. The percentages are pretty consistent the world over for the most part.

To cut a long story short - if an idividual has a certain, limited amount of money, and he pirates some software - he has more of this limitied amount of money to spend on somthing else - which will most likely preserve some employees job.
Do you really think it is neccessary that a company like e.g. microsoft acumulates money in a big way, while others loose their jobs because noone can pay them anymore? And, thinking on - if they loose teir jobs, could they pay for the most recent MS products anymore?

On the marketing perspective - might it be desirable to have pirated versions of software around to grow a user base, and as such spread to a bigger market which will in turn be producing more leagally bought products in the end?
 

dvdh

macrumors 6502
Apr 6, 2004
429
0
Bear said:
Interesting thought for a Poll. I'm not sure I really want to know the answer as it might cause companies to raise the prices on software.

But at the same time, there have been companies that have responded in more creative ways than raising the prices.

For example, most people who are pirating software (with the exception of maybe games) are not using that software to its full potential. They might be casual users, but chances are they are not using it in mainstream production. More companies need to recognize that there is a difference between home users and those in the professional world, even though they might want to use the same tools.

So where am I going with this: I appreciate that companies such as Alias (Maya) and Apple (Final Cut) have released different levels of what constitute pro tools under the recognition that not all users have the same levels of needs. These softwares, are not really crippled versions of the full release, but rather lack a few high end tools that are less useful to low end users.

With Maya, the offering of Complete meant that Alias could offer a package at a competitive price to other mid range 3D package, but still give all the power at the full price in the high end of the market.

In the case of the Final Cut, Express fulfills the needs of most under-pro users, while Pro gives all the bells and whistles.

Neither of these packages are really 'home user' packages, but come at prices that less intensive users can justify and afford.

Obviously this type of approach to software means the companies can get more borderline users paying for legitimate copies of software.

The poll should really be aimed to find out which price range people are most like to pirate from and whether they do it because they don't care or because they feel they don't use an expensive app enough to justify paying its pro-use price tag.
 

jared_kipe

macrumors 68030
Dec 8, 2003
2,967
1
Seattle
Apple isn't stupid, they put little notes about who downloaded stuff with every itunes download. So it wouldn't really surprize me that they will be putting such a note on their ADC downloads now. It would make things much easier to adapt to threats like this.

At the same time, I think Apple has gone a little too far. But thats just me I guess.
 

trialzombie

macrumors newbie
Dec 23, 2004
1
0
Siding with Apple on this one!

I am relatively new to this forum but I followed closely this round of suing on Apple part. Sure we can have different opnions of how forwarding Apple has been in the 'open source' category but here at heart there are commercial products and Apple has the right to defend its livelyhood just as any other corporation or individual.Using an image, here Apple has invited people in the house for a tea party and the guest has pooped in the teapot.
Doen't matter how you cut it, it is not right! :(
 

Swift

macrumors 68000
Feb 18, 2003
1,828
964
Los Angeles
Formal Virtue and Common Sense

"This is piracy!" they thunder. "Evil! Burn in Hell!"

Well, remember OS X Public Beta?

This is a beta operating system that its fans want to take a ride in. That's about all you can do with Tiger betas. And it crashes. Anybody who doesn't install it on a Firewire drive you can't afford to lose is a nut.

For the morally mighty, indignant ones, please bring your attention to the fact that there are lots of Panther copies out there on the net, but Apple doesn't get into a snit about that.

So, this isn't a question of using the OS without paying -- if Apple seriously cared about that, they'd make you jump through all the hoops that Windows does to get XP Pro installed -- but getting a sneak peek at something you *can't* use seriously. Steve hates sneak-peekers, because he wants to burst on the scene with another dazzler. That's his M.O.

So, fine. If that's the corporate strategy he wants, that's fine. It has nothing to do with "morality." Legally? If any corporation of a certain size and influence wanted to kill me, they could. The laws are more and more written for them, not humans.
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,586
229
JFreak said:
DId you not catch that thread a couple of weeks ago that showed that Apple has been putting crippled 108's in our G5's. Check it out, it's pretty interesting if you have the right drive.

jon
 

swissmann

macrumors 6502a
Sep 17, 2003
797
82
The Utah Alps
Shaktai said:
Theft comes in many forms, and piracy is one of them. There are some very good statistics though that apply to fraud but also transfer over to most other forms of theft such as piracy and shoplifting. The percentages are pretty consistent the world over for the most part.

5-7% of most given populations are at high risk for fraud, piracy or theft in some form. High Risk means that if they see an opportunity and believe they can get away with it, they will try to.

An additional 20% is at moderate risk. This means that if they see other people getting away with it, and no one says or does anything about it, they may be inclined to do it as well, though usually on a smaller scale. Psychologically they usually have to find some way to justify it first though.

Documented fraud alone was greater then 660 billion dollars in the United States in 2003. Factor in the unfound or undocumented fraud, and the numbers go up to greate then 10%. Now add in all the other various other types of theft such as piracy, shoplifting, etc, and the numbers are huge. You can figure that the average, reasonably honest consumer (hopefully that is you) pays at least 15-20% (1.5 to 2 Trillion dollars) more for everything they buy to make up for the people who steal. Not only that, but YOU then pay an additional 15-20% in taxes to make up the loss of tax revenue as well.

Software pirates, and other thieves aren't stealing from the companies, they are stealing from everyone. Everyone else pays the price. This isn't a story about Apple (or any other company) going after the average guy, it is a story about going after "thieves".

You can try to dress it up any way you like and use any words you like, but a software pirate, is still a thief. A predator that lives off of the labors and work of others. Apple is doing the "right thing" to protect not only their company, but also their employees and their customers.

Well said. I was wondering where you got the stats from?
 

Shaktai

macrumors member
Jan 18, 2002
44
0
Puget Sound
visor said:
To cut a long story short - if an idividual has a certain, limited amount of money, and he pirates some software - he has more of this limitied amount of money to spend on somthing else - which will most likely preserve some employees job.

Do you really think it is neccessary that a company like e.g. microsoft acumulates money in a big way, while others loose their jobs because noone can pay them anymore? And, thinking on - if they loose teir jobs, could they pay for the most recent MS products anymore?

On the marketing perspective - might it be desirable to have pirated versions of software around to grow a user base, and as such spread to a bigger market which will in turn be producing more leagally bought products in the end?

Hmmm! Sounds like the old "Robin Hood" justification. I'll steal because I think someone is rich, and spend it on someone else.

First off, Microsoft, Apple or whoever is not just a big "corporation". (and I am not a big Microsoft fan) They are corporations that employe hundreds or thousands of people, and that generates hundreds of thousands of ancilliary jobs throughout multiple industries. What sins may exist on the corporate leadership level belong to the corporate leadership. It still does not justify theft, which is more likely to cost the very jobs you think you are saving. You are not stealing from the corporation. You are stealing from the employees, vendors, the vendors employees, the consulting and marketing firms and their employees, and it continues to cascade on down the lines of economics until in the end, you end up stealing from your own self. The corporations will just raise their prices, cut jobs or outsource to lower paying vendors, to compensate for any losses they occur. They have to, or else they will go out of business.

The rules of economics are realy quite simple. What goes around, comes around. Each individual is responsible for living within their means. Money in any form, is just a means of barter or exchange, a way to keep the energy of prosperity flowing. If you receive something, you have a responsbility to give something in exchange. Nothing in life is free.

The adage that "you must spend money to make money" is true. What you don't spend, cannot come back to you. You want a better paying job? Then start by paying for the products and services you consume. Because the person you pay today for products and services, will someday directly or indirectly, become the consumer who pays you or the company you are employed with, for their products and services.

And NO, pirated software has never been shown to increase market exposure of any kind in a "beneficial" manner. Instead, it just increases the perception of others, that they shouldn't have to pay either. Theft unchallenged, just encourages more theft. Then everyone suffers and pays the price.
 

Shaktai

macrumors member
Jan 18, 2002
44
0
Puget Sound
swissmann said:
Well said. I was wondering where you got the stats from?

From a variety of sources. The numbers I quoted are based upon (but not quoted exactly) data from the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, regarding documented fraud, but you will find similar data through multiple disciplines and sources. Documented fraud world-wide is averaging about 6% of gross national product. This is just what is discovered, and does not include much of the high tech end user and consumer fraud that takes place. Fraud crimes alone are estimated to be more then 10% of GNP (nobody knows how much more). Add in piracy, merchandise shrinkage, and various other theft and vandalism crimes, and the damages soar. 10-20% is probably a conservative number, especially for high tech crimes. To be honest, no one really knows for sure, beyond that which is actually discovered. What is discovered is much less then the actual damages to economies.

Left unchallenged, these types of activities can destroy entire economies. Time was that companies just built a number of 4-5% loss into their sales margins. Unfortunately, the thieves did not settle for that 4-5%, instead they took that and doubled or tripled it. Corporations are now realizing that they must more aggresively protect their assets, including intellectual properties, in order to turn the tide, or else everyone loses.
 

billyboy

macrumors 65816
Mar 15, 2003
1,165
0
In my head
Shaktai said:
Theft unchallenged, just encourages more theft. Then everyone suffers and pays the price.

There is a similar principle at work when keeping a potentially rough neighbourhood free from vandalism ie the approach that is proven to discourage vandalism is to repair cracked and broken windows the minute they appear.
 

BWhaler

macrumors 68040
Jan 8, 2003
3,788
6,244
Well, one thing is for certain: the lawsuits worked.

No screenshots. No discussion of features. Anywhere.
 
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