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vandlism

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2007
407
0
And when pages was introduced, no one thought it was a replacement for word. Before when Keynote was introduced, it was limited but held promise to replace powerpoint one day. Give Numbers time, it'll come around.

My issues with Excel vary from project to project. I never really enjoy it, and Numbers will do great for small comparison charts and whatnot. I'll surely get use out of it for presentations to drop into Keynote or Pages.

Someday Excel will support more than 30,000 values. Makes me mad every time...
 

Garissimo

macrumors member
Jan 9, 2004
65
0
For $80 it better have the damn error bars. And resizable data markers.

How hard can THAT be?

[...]

I think your criticisms are quite valid. Numbers was probably rushed to meet the release date of iLife 08. I'd be shocked if Apple didn't address most of the glaring shortcomings in a "dot" release down the road.
 

valiar

macrumors regular
Original poster
Mar 14, 2006
222
0
Washington, DC
And when pages was introduced, no one thought it was a replacement for word. Before when Keynote was introduced, it was limited but held promise to replace powerpoint one day. Give Numbers time, it'll come around.

...

I am not so sure it will "come around" - at least, in the foreseeable future.

After all, Pages still does not support endnotes, and is incompatible with any bibliography application (again, how hard is that?). That is after almost two years.

From what I have seen, they either get it right the first time, or never get it right. I hope I will be proven wrong.

Have to agree with this!

At my University iWork is $39, however MS Office is *free* (well not really as obviously my employers pay for a site license, but it is as far as I'm concerned). No way iWork is going to replace Excel, but I'm going to get it for Keynote because I'm finally done with PowerPoint.

Used to be $39 for iWork'06 here too.

Does not sem to be the case for '08.

Boxed edition is not yet avalable in the bookstore, so I have downloaded a trial. It prompted me to buy just the serial number for $49, or a box for $71 (that is with academic discount - and Apple did make me search for my specific school too).

Interestingly, after I opted for the $49 version, I still ended up with $71 in my shopping cart.

So it looks like for almost the same price as full M$ Office I am getting a nice (but overpriced) presentation program, a rather limited M$ Publisher clone, and a very rushed beta version of Marketing Execs'R'Us "spreadsheet". Not such a good value for the money if you ask me... Only Keynote makes it worth it.
 

Jason_Bryan

macrumors regular
Apr 27, 2003
117
0
Sheffield, UK
I am not so sure it will "come around" - at least, in the foreseeable future.

After all, Pages still does not support endnotes, and is incompatible with any bibliography application (again, how hard is that?). That is after almost two years.

From what I have seen, they either get it right the first time, or never get it right. I hope I will be proven wrong.

Pages does support endnotes I have just used them. :)
 

dr_lha

macrumors 68000
Oct 8, 2003
1,633
176
Used to be $39 for iWork'06 here too.

Does not sem to be the case for '08.

Boxed edition is not yet avalable in the bookstore, so I have downloaded a trial.
Its the boxed edition that costs $39 where I am from the University Computer Store. If you buy from Apple Online Store for my school its listed at $71. Perhaps you should wait and see how much your uni bookstore charges for the boxed copy?
 

shinji

macrumors 65816
Mar 18, 2007
1,329
1,515
I'm not a science student, and I had no idea what error bars were until I just googled them. I did take AP Chem in High School though, and in college I was a comp sci major before I switched to business. I got through all that without needing error bars, so it seems to me this is something only needed by math or hard science students? What is your actual major? I am actually curious to know who needs this, and I don't mean that sarcastically.

I'm not disputing that you really need error bars or that they are important to some people, but do you really think they are so crucial to Apple's target demographic that they needed to be in the 1.0 release?

The answer is no, they're not that important to the typical iWork buyer who just needs a basic word processor, basic spreadsheet, and the smaller percentage who need a presentation app.

If you need more than that, then you should use Office instead and that likely is Microsoft's strategy. iWork isn't meant to be a full replacement for Office, just for some of the functionality for people who would never use a lot of the features.

I think $80 is a fair price for what you get in iWork, and I'm happy with the product so far. That's the great thing about Apple offering a 30 day trial- I found out it does what I need, and you found out that it doesn't so you haven't wasted $80 yet.

On a side note, I remember at my school we were able to get free copies of XP, Visual Studio, and some other MS apps directly through Microsoft. You downloaded the .iso from Microsoft using their installer. The prof just had to I guess submit some paperwork to MS? I was using PC's in those days though, don't know if there is an equivalent for Mac products.
 
Did you even read any of my later posts?

I am not looking to do any real data analysis in Numbers (nor do I do it in Excel, because Excel cannot do the type of analysis I need done).

I need an application that would allow me to do pretty plots for presentations and papers with minimal amount of effort.

Numbers description on Apple's site seems to fit the bill.

That is, until you actually try it.

I understand why some people on this forum make posts like "I only do my budget in it - and what are those error bars anyway?"

But when Apple developers in charge of a major project behave in the same way - it means that those people are incompetent. It is their job to anticipate a very common use case, and they fail. I can even imagine a meeting they probably had. "OK, let's see... What do people use spreadsheets for? Budgets! And sales reports! And middle school science projects - that is where the big market is!".

What is really amazing is that Keynote IS a Powerpoint killer - and it has been in many aspects a Powerpoint killer even in version 1.0. It has always been an excellent program. Numbers, on the other hand, should not even be billed as a general spreadhsheet. Call it "budgeting application", call it "Spreadsheet for People who Only Have Three Numbers". It is so useless.

Your posts prove why Numbers is for the rest of us. You have Excel, quit bitching about a product not designed for you.

I'm glad Apple has kept it simple and beautiful. Apple didn't have your needs in mind when they developed Numbers, the same as Toyota does not design their family cars based on the needs of drivers who drive Nitromethane fueled drag cars.
 

dr_lha

macrumors 68000
Oct 8, 2003
1,633
176
Your posts prove why Numbers is for the rest of us. You have Excel, quit bitching about a product not designed for you.
This is a really bad attitude to have IMHO. Numbers would be excellent for everyone if they just added a few basic features and improved the overall sluggishness of the app.
I'm glad Apple has kept it simple and beautiful.
Its not that simple though, honestly its about as easy to use as Excel, as it works in almost the exact same way. Some stuff (like the way to resize plot markers and changing plot scales) is downright unintuitive.
Apple didn't have your needs in mind when they developed Numbers, the same as Toyota does not design their family cars based on the needs of drivers who drive Nitromethane fueled drag cars.
It would be nice if Apple wants to call their apps "iWork" then they should make them suitable for work. Keynote is a great, Pages is getting there, Numbers isn't ready yet. The criticism of Numbers presented here is perfectly valid and people need to quit being so damn defensive about it. Hopefully by pointing out the problems Apple will fix them and truly make an app that is for all of us.
 

macbwizard

macrumors 6502
May 23, 2005
282
54
I'm waiting for apple to go live with this website: http://www.apple.com/feedback/numbers.html

For some reason Numbers links to it, but it's dead as of this moment. Once it comes up, let's let Apple know that a lot of us could use just a little more functionality in error bars and regression fitting. Graphing apps are entirely useless without these features.
 

Frisco

macrumors 68020
Sep 24, 2002
2,475
69
Utopia
And when pages was introduced, no one thought it was a replacement for word. Before when Keynote was introduced, it was limited but held promise to replace powerpoint one day. Give Numbers time, it'll come around.

My issues with Excel vary from project to project. I never really enjoy it, and Numbers will do great for small comparison charts and whatnot. I'll surely get use out of it for presentations to drop into Keynote or Pages.

Someday Excel will support more than 30,000 values. Makes me mad every time...

Excel 2007 supports 1 Million values. It's about time!
 

Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
I have already reported the lack of error bars as a bug to Apple, but I don't think its that big a deal, most people doing high school projects won't know how to get Excel to plot error bars.

When making software you have to make sacrifices to get it out on time, with the iPhone it was Bluetooth Tethering, which is only useful to a small number of users. If we're honest the vast majority of buyers of iWork aren't high school/1st year university science students (later ones would use Origin or something).
 

dr_lha

macrumors 68000
Oct 8, 2003
1,633
176
When making software you have to make sacrifices to get it out on time, with the iPhone it was Bluetooth Tethering, which is only useful to a small number of users.
Being as Bluetooth Tethering is specifically disallowed by the AT&T terms of service for the iPhone plan, I doubt it was "time" that caused Apple to leave it out.
 

TheStranger55

macrumors member
Jul 26, 2007
40
0
For 75$ my University can get whole MS Office.....I WANT/NEED error bars!!!! And more control over the plots:mad:

But the cheap MS Office that universities sell have a restriction that you can only use them for school work. Using them for any other use is violating the TOA. With the $71 IWork there are no restrictions.
 

dr_lha

macrumors 68000
Oct 8, 2003
1,633
176
But the cheap MS Office that universities sell have a restriction that you can only use them for school work. Using them for any other use is violating the TOA. With the $71 IWork there are no restrictions.
Perhaps if you're a student, but its not just students who get the educational discount. I'm not a student and the version of Office I have has no restrictions on use.

Who really cares about those restrictions anyway, and when would it really matter? Do you really think Microsoft would come to sue you because you use Excel "the wrong way"? What a joke!
 

Mydel

macrumors 6502a
Apr 8, 2006
804
664
Sometimes here mostly there
But the cheap MS Office that universities sell have a restriction that you can only use them for school work. Using them for any other use is violating the TOA. With the $71 IWork there are no restrictions.
This is not true. As long as you study/work at university you can use it full time and without any restrictions.
And Numbers is one big restriction and completely not ready app
 

Navintar

macrumors member
Jul 15, 2006
95
0
California
It's not meant to be an Excel-killer. It's meant to be Excel for the rest of us. As someone who used to train people in Excel, rest assured for 99.9% of us, Numbers is just fine. For those of us who do financial analysis and the like, and require very sophisticated formulas and macros, Excel is still the only game in town.

I do understand what OP meant to say. Excel is not even close to being a able to handle a complicated data analysis. No real scientist would rely on Excel alone to get their job done. The only use is to get a quick and dirty overview of the data as any spreadsheet app would do. Apparently, Numbers fails to deliver that.

I don't think it'll ever be Excel standard. Excel is one of the two products from Redmond that actually shine (the other being Exchange). Numbers is aimed at an occasional user more than anything.

Trust me, there isn't anything so spectacular about Excel. Excel IS actually more suitable for occasional user. Its professional (wannabe?) features has gotta be the most inefficient way to implement things. Apple is all about making things simple. There are some neat features in Numbers, but not being able to do a simple thing like fitting a line is disappointing.
 

P-Worm

macrumors 68020
Jul 16, 2002
2,045
1
Salt Lake City, UT
I like iWork '08, I really do. I'm going to buy it when my trial ends and at $79, that isn't too much money.

With that said, I was absolutely dumbfounded when I discovered there was no option to do even a linear (let alone a logarithmic or polynomial) regression. In my introductory numerical methods class, we learned how to derive and hand code linear, polynomial, and logarithmic regressions from scratch. It would be easy enough to implement this feature without making Numbers difficult to use and it would make simple scientific analysis possible.

I wasn't expecting an Excel killer. But not having linear regression in a spreadsheet is pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

P-Worm
 

Hairball

macrumors regular
Jan 5, 2007
184
221
Near an Apple device
Missing freezing panes function?

Maybe I just missed the post in the plethora of Error Bar post, but what about being able to freeze panes, columns or rows? For any sheet that is 50-100 lines, this feature is nice to have. I know I can add a header row that is on every page in print view, but why has the freezing feature missing?
 

buffalomike

macrumors newbie
Jan 6, 2007
13
0
buffalo
snipped a lot to get to this little tidbit....

unfortunately apple went the same way. making a chart for the average marketing moron can be done much easier and more beatiful in keynote.

:rolleyes:

Wow. I wonder what the marketing people think of the "scientists" where I work....
 

valiar

macrumors regular
Original poster
Mar 14, 2006
222
0
Washington, DC
I'm not a science student, and I had no idea what error bars were until I just googled them. I did take AP Chem in High School though, and in college I was a comp sci major before I switched to business. I got through all that without needing error bars, so it seems to me this is something only needed by math or hard science students? What is your actual major? I am actually curious to know who needs this, and I don't mean that sarcastically.

I will try to explain it in simple terms.

When you do any measurement, there will always be errors.

Errors might be systematic (such as your instrument calibration being a bit off), or random (such as you not reading the scale consistently, or current fluctuations in the powergrid causing fluctuations in readout, or your sample being less than representative).

As you can easily understand, these errors become very, very important if you want to compare the results of several measurements. For example, you have obtained a value of 105 under set of conditions A, and 125 under a set of conditions B, for a certain parameter of the system you are studying. Does it mean that going from set of conditions A to a set of conditions B leads to an increase in the value of the parameter you are measuring? Categorically no, because the random error of your measurement is 50 units. For all you know, the value of your parameter under conditions B might be LOWER than under conditions A.

Error bars are a way to convey this idea graphically.

As you can immediately appreciate, error values are as important as values themselves, because they enable comparisons between individual data points, or entirely different data sets.

With no error bars present, such comparisons are completely meaningless.

I'm not disputing that you really need error bars or that they are important to some people, but do you really think they are so crucial to Apple's target demographic that they needed to be in the 1.0 release?

As you might have gathered from my hurried explanation above, error bars are absolutely essential if you plot anything other than, say, your monthly revenue. If you have measured it - there is an error. If you want to compare two measurements and make conclusions, you have to know whether your comparison will mean anything.

As far as target demographic goes...
Macs are used widely by the life science/biochem/chemistry community. Apple does realize the importance of scientists as its loyal customers. For example, they had a booth at every single one of the ACS National meetings I have attended. Yes, right next to Shimadzu, Agilent, and Sigma-Aldrich.
We scientists do a lot of presentations (probably more than your typical businessman), and we love Keynote. At the last ACS meeting I have attended, half of the presenters used Macs. Of those, more than half used Keynote - because it is an awesome presentation program. Better than Powerpoint by leaps and bounds.

If you need more than that, then you should use Office instead and that likely is Microsoft's strategy. iWork isn't meant to be a full replacement for Office, just for some of the functionality for people who would never use a lot of the features.

The only thing is, Office is not Universal - and won't be for 6 more months. I can't do my work with Office 2004 - I get too many spinning beachballs ever since the Intel switch.
There are decent alternatives to Word (Mellel) and Powerpoint (Keynote), but there is nothing that can fully relace Excel as far as I am concerned.

I think $80 is a fair price for what you get in iWork, and I'm happy with the product so far. That's the great thing about Apple offering a 30 day trial- I found out it does what I need, and you found out that it doesn't so you haven't wasted $80 yet.

Since Numbers is useless, and Pages close to useless (due to incompatibility with bibliography software), $80 is expensive for just Keynote. And as far as error bars and resizable markers go - how hard can that be?
 

valiar

macrumors regular
Original poster
Mar 14, 2006
222
0
Washington, DC
I think he means that it doesn't support adding of references from Endnote or other bibliographic software.

No, I did not know they could be toggled - now I have figured that out.

Still useless, however, because you cannot have BOTH endnotes and footnotes in the same document. That is something that I have to do in most, if not all papers I write.
 

daveporter

macrumors regular
Sep 8, 2006
212
0
Green Cove Springs, FL
I also had hoped that Numbers would properly support statistical analysis and chart development. As an engineer, this functionality is necessary and required for much of my work. At this time, Numbers can not be a replacement for Excel for me.

Many new Mac users are scientists and engineers (I am one); hopefully, as the portion of Apple's market share that we represent grows, Apple will be willing to further develop Numbers into a more capable spreadsheet program for scientific and engineering use. Until then, the resource costs or doing so evidently outweigh the potential benefits in Apple's opinion.

Numbers does appear to be a fully capable spreadsheet program for those persons who only plan to use it as a light-weight data-base program (list making, recipe file storage, etc.) or light-weight number cruncher for home use (budgets, mortgage calculations, etc.). In reality, those folks most likely far out-number we scientists and engineers at the moment so Apple chose the right development path it would appear.

Dave
 
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