Push email without MobileMe?

[Niiro13]

i assume you have an account set up within yahoo? like your other email that yahoo checks for you

question is, how often does yahoo check your other account? it defeats the object of push if it only checks it every 30 mins or so..

They're not forwarding the email to Yahoo or using Yahoo to check the email.

They have a Yahoo email, only the domain is custom (because it's a business account). So it's still Yahoo! They're just wondering whether push is available through the free accounts or the business accounts as well.

I'd have to say "duh, you paid for it." But you never know...Yahoo! is an interesting company...

 

[Chase R]

I have a blackberry right now that I'm going to be replacing on July 11th. It works really good with my Gmail account. If I get a message in my email. Within 15 seconds it will show up on my phone. Wouldn't this be push? Unless my phone is checking for mail every 10 seconds..... not likely since the battery lasts for about 4 days. Is this how the "Mail" app on the iPhone will work?

 

[mavis]

I have a blackberry right now that I'm going to be replacing on July 11th. It works really good with my Gmail account. If I get a message in my email. Within 15 seconds it will show up on my phone. Wouldn't this be push? Unless my phone is checking for mail every 10 seconds..... not likely since the battery lasts for about 4 days. Is this how the "Mail" app on the iPhone will work?

If/when Gmail's IMAP servers support the IDLE command, then yes - that's how it would work. With my webhost's email servers (which support IDLE), I usually get new messages in my desktop email clients (Apple Mail, Entourage, Thunderbird - I've tested all three) about 15-20 seconds after they arrive in the mailbox. The iPhone 3G (and original iPhone, with the 2.0 software) will function in the same way.

 

[GuillaumeB]

Don't expect getting native push Gmail before October.

The Push Notification System wont be integrated into the SDK before September, which means Google will not be able to write an application that tells me if i have a new email in my inbox unless I have the phone periodically check ....

 

[mavis]

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Don't expect getting native push Gmail before October.

The Push Notification System wont be integrated into the SDK before September, which means Google will not be able to write an application that tells me if i have a new email in my inbox unless I have the phone periodically check ....

Why would Google have to 'write an application' to enable the IDLE command on their IMAP servers??

 

[frosse]

I'm thinking Google might take advantage of that push service that Apple will be offering in September. I'm really surprised that so many people haven't heard of this. I guess all the "OMG IPHONE DATA PLAN $30!?!?" ended up overshadowing this...

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-push-notification-service-for-devs-announced/

Maybe I'm waay off here but if you take a look at the picture in the link, doesnt Apples "Push" mean "Pull"?

Unless the 3rd party server (like gmail) supports real push, then Apples push notification services needs to PULL the e-mail from the server and the PUSH it to the iphone, right?

Which means that if server is not push then apples push is not push?

Follow?

EDIT: Why would Google develop a standalone app for mail when gmail uses IMAP in the vanilla iphone mail app? Does iphone has anything to do with gmail push? I mean, google would push their e-mails to their IMAP clients (lite iphone), right? I doubt that the iphone would have anything to do with it?

 

[mavis]

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Apple's notification service is seen mainly as way to get around the limitation of not allowing apps to run in the background. The iPhone 2.0 software's ability to utilize the "IDLE" command with IMAP servers is a different thing entirely (same technology, perhaps, but a different application) ... If Google (or any other email provider) allows IMAP access rather than just POP, and if their IMAP server supports the IDLE command, you'll have 'push' email.

 

[frosse]

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Apple's notification service is seen mainly as way to get around the limitation of not allowing apps to run in the background. The iPhone 2.0 software's ability to utilize the "IDLE" command with IMAP servers is a different thing entirely (same technology, perhaps, but a different application) ... If Google (or any other email provider) allows IMAP access rather than just POP, and if their IMAP server supports the IDLE command, you'll have 'push' email.

Google already uses IMAP.

Whats IDLE?

 

[mavis]

Google already uses IMAP.

Whats IDLE?

IDLE is a server capability which allows for 'push' email to any client which also supports the IDLE command (for example, iPod Touch/iPhones with 2.0 software, the iPhone 3G, and various desktop clients - Thunderbird, Entourage, Mail.app, etc) ...

http://www.isode.com/whitepapers/imap-idle.html

 

[frosse]

IDLE is a server capability which allows for 'push' email to any client which also supports the IDLE command (for example, iPod Touch/iPhones with 2.0 software, the iPhone 3G, and various desktop clients - Thunderbird, Entourage, Mail.app, etc) ...

http://www.isode.com/whitepapers/imap-idle.html

Yeah I read about it on isode and other sites, seems nice.

So if 2.0 supports IMAP-IDLE its now up to Google to implement it on their servers, right?

 

[mavis]

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IDLE is a server capability which allows for 'push' email to any client which also supports the IDLE command (for example, iPod Touch/iPhones with 2.0 software, the iPhone 3G, and various desktop clients - Thunderbird, Entourage, Mail.app, etc) ...

http://www.isode.com/whitepapers/imap-idle.html

Yeah I read about it on isode and other sites, seems nice.

So if 2.0 supports IMAP-IDLE its now up to Google to implement it on their servers, right?

That's right.

 

[frosse]

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That's right.

Btw, source on IDLE support in 2.0?

You're not referring to Exchange push right? Because that only applies to, well, exchange. which is only for enterprise users...

 

[randomuk]

do we actually have confirmation that the iphone 2.0 mail application supports normal imap idle (RFCc2177)?

osx server has full support for this and it would be fantastic if the new iphone firmware supported it. but i can't find anything official (or even a little less official) that says it does. only the exchange and mobileme push

 

[semi5]

Btw, source on IDLE support in 2.0?

You're not referring to Exchange push right? Because that only applies to, well, exchange. which is only for enterprise users...

Exchange uses ActiveSync for direct push. Google could license ActiveSync to work with their servers if they wish

 

[copland007]

Just wanted to clear this up for people, google already implemented IMAP IDLE from day one when they announced they supported IMAP.

Proof is in the butter as always Perform the following test yourself to prove that not only the google server advertises it supports it, but that it does indeed work.

Establish connection

$ openssl s_client -crlf -quiet -connect imap.gmail.com:993

You'll see some output about the certs...

depth=0 /C=US/ST=California/L=Mountain View/O=Google Inc/CN=imap.gmail.com
verify error:num=20:unable to get local issuer certificate
verify return:1
depth=0 /C=US/ST=California/L=Mountain View/O=Google Inc/CN=imap.gmail.com
verify error:num=27:certificate not trusted
verify return:1
depth=0 /C=US/ST=California/L=Mountain View/O=Google Inc/CN=imap.gmail.com
verify error:num=21:unable to verify the first certificate
verify return:1
* OK Gimap ready for requests from my.ip.address.removed c9if116897ana.0

When you see the OK ready for requests query the server to tell you what it supports (don't forget the leading period and space):

. capability

Notice IDLE listed, ok so the server tells us that it is suppose to support it, so let's test it!

* CAPABILITY IMAP4rev1 UNSELECT IDLE NAMESPACE QUOTA XLIST CHILDREN XYZZY
. OK Thats all she wrote! c9if116897ana.0

First we need to login to our account, replace login info below with your username/password obviously

. login username@gmail.com password
. OK username@gmail.com authenticated (Success)

Let's take a peek at our inbox

. examine inbox
* FLAGS (\Answered \Flagged \Draft \Deleted \Seen)
* OK [PERMANENTFLAGS ()]
* OK [UIDVALIDITY 2]
* 2004 EXISTS
* 0 RECENT
* OK [UNSEEN 0]
* OK [UIDNEXT 14885]
. OK [READ-ONLY] inbox selected. (Success)

Now let's test if idle really works

. idle
+ idling

Now some time passes and we send ourselves a test email from somewhere else, if idle is working we should see a notification show up very quickly...

* 2005 EXISTS

Bingo! Gmail supporting imap idle.

It is the iPhone that does not support the imap idle command. The yahoo 'push' is using an out-of-band notification service (think SMS data) not imap idle.

Hope this clears it up a little. If you want more reading material check out the imap idle rfc2177 and/or Lemonade.

 

[YoungKevin]

Whatever happened to this?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/11/apples-mac-getting-a-google-overhaul/

 

[frosse]

...a lot of text that I dont understand...

I really dont understand you're text so I cannot verify your experiment.

However I cannot find any information what so ever about gmail is using imap idle?

 

[copland007]

I really dont understand you're text so I cannot verify your experiment.

However I cannot find any information what so ever about gmail is using imap idle?

Hmm, don't know how much more I can explain what I typed up. This was executed from a terminal window on a machine that had openssl installed. Doing all those steps manually shows you how an email client such as 'Mail.app' on OSX communicates with the mail server.

The '. capability' command is how a client determines what a server supports. The server responds with a list of commands/extensions that it supports. The response to this command is the proof that gmail supports imap idle. If you want a really long winded explanation about the capability command check the imap rfc 2060 section 6.1.1

* CAPABILITY IMAP4rev1 UNSELECT IDLE NAMESPACE QUOTA XLIST CHILDREN XYZZY

Each space separated item on this line are the commands/extensions that gmail supports:

• IMAP4rev1 <- RFC requires this item to be present
• UNSELECT
• IDLE <- Here's your proof, imap idle support
• NAMESPACE
• QUOTA
• XLIST
• CHILDREN
• XYZZY

The last part of what I typed up was how an email client such as 'Mail.app' on OSX uses imap idle. The '. idle' command is sent from the client to the server to register itself to be notified of changes. When there are changes on the server it sends notifications to each registered 'idling' client. The message "* 2005 EXISTS" was an example of such a notification, in that case a new email being delivered.

Let me know if I can help explain it further.

 

[Diode]

Just wanted to clear this up for people, google already implemented IMAP IDLE from day one when they announced they supported IMAP.

Interesting. I wonder if Apple will implement this with their "push" service.

If not I'm sure someone will ....

 

[frosse]

Hmm, don't know how much more I can explain what I typed up. This was executed from a terminal window on a machine that had openssl installed. Doing all those steps manually shows you how an email client such as 'Mail.app' on OSX communicates with the mail server.

The '. capability' command is how a client determines what a server supports. The server responds with a list of commands/extensions that it supports. The response to this command is the proof that gmail supports imap idle. If you want a really long winded explanation about the capability command check the imap rfc 2060 section 6.1.1


Each space separated item on this line are the commands/extensions that gmail supports:

• IMAP4rev1 <- RFC requires this item to be present
• UNSELECT
• IDLE <- Here's your proof, imap idle support
• NAMESPACE
• QUOTA
• XLIST
• CHILDREN
• XYZZY

The last part of what I typed up was how an email client such as 'Mail.app' on OSX uses imap idle. The '. idle' command is sent from the client to the server to register itself to be notified of changes. When there are changes on the server it sends notifications to each registered 'idling' client. The message "* 2005 EXISTS" was an example of such a notification, in that case a new email being delivered.

Let me know if I can help explain it further.

I believe you. But how come google nor the iphone uses IMAP IDLE? Or does it? Isnt IDLE = push?

 

[daveschroeder]

Btw, source on IDLE support in 2.0?

You're not referring to Exchange push right? Because that only applies to, well, exchange. which is only for enterprise users...

Yeah...I haven't seen anything to suggest that 2.0 has generic IMAP IDLE support.

Source?

 

[copland007]

I believe you. But how come google nor the iphone uses IMAP IDLE? Or does it? Isnt IDLE = push?

Idle is pretty close to push, but not technically the same. The biggest difference being that with imap idle you have to maintain an open connection to the server to receive notifications. This is probably the number 1 reason apple doesn't support imap idle on the iPhone.

If you setup an IMAP IDLE compliant client (Thunderbird for example) with your google imap settings it will function as you expect, just not on the iPhone

 

[tp2008]

Just to revert back to the OP's question, I currently use push email through Mail2web - costs me around $5 (£2.70 ish) a month and gives full Exchange Server support. So as a cheeky shot at Apple's Mobileme claim that its "Exchange for the rest of us"....this IS exchange for the rest of us!

I've used this on an assortment of Nokia e series and n series phones and its very good - as strong as the email that I had on my Blackberry 2 years ago.

If you have a mac, Address Book will link in with the address book that is kept on the exchange server too.

You need to set up gmail so it autoforwards to your mail2web email address and set up the mail2web address to appear that its sent from your gmail address, but that is a 2 min job and very easy to do.

So if you want push; don't want a .mac (or mobileme!) account; don't mind a couple of ££ a month and have autoforwarding on your email, then I'd highly recommend this option!



(I should add that I also have a .mac account, so will use that with the iphone from July, but only as I'd need to keep that on anyway so seems little point paying for both)!

 

[frosse]

Copland

I just read on a website about IDLE, just like you explain it. So far everything is alright.

BUT when reading more on google, the same website posts a new post where he says that gmail does NOT infact use IDLE...

Whats your take on this?

 

[mudskip]

My thoughts..

Push email without MobileMe
...
I don't see this happening based on what has already been announced.
If they want you to pay for push with MobileMe, why would they give it to you for free?

Yes, Apple will be providing the "push notification service" to app developers for free.
But from what I understand, you couldn't push email through this service.
It only supports text alerts [pop up message on iPhone], badges[numbers beside app icons], and sounds.

Now.. that said..
I imagine it is a possibility that Google could release a custom GMail app for the app store. They could provide the functionality of "pushing" sound alerts and badge updates for the app.
This way, it would seem like push email, same as the native mail app.. until you click on the GMail icon and open the app.
Now, you'll have to wait for the GMail app to download the email.