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apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
Apple needs it's own fabs? Yes it would help, Apple does not need Samsung chips? Actually it does need them and to all those hypocritical Samsung haters, (you have GOT to be hypocritical considering how much of Android iOS7 straight up copies), then I say do you hate you current iPad or iPhone considering they have Samsung chips in them?
And to follow on, the day Apple stick A series chips in their computers is the day I go back to Windows! They will never match an X86.
 

iabacus

macrumors member
Sep 26, 2011
75
134
Hawaii
I wonder what the specks of an A9 or A10 will be. Only two years away, and our phones are already fast
 

name99

macrumors 68020
Jun 21, 2004
2,215
2,032
If they use both TSMC and Samsung, it will not be for the same processor. For all we know this may simply mean Samsung will keep supplying A7 & A6, with TSMC handling the A8.

Different fabs have different process, even if they're at the same node. You can't take the same blueprint to two different shops. Apple would have to essentially design two chips. They would have different performance and power consumption. It'd be practically impossible to use them interchangeably in a single design.

Now they may choose to do A8X with Samsung and A8 with TSMC - still a pain, but at least those are two different SoCs where presumably the iPad one could tolerate an older 28nm process from Samsung with a higher power/thermal profile which by that time would have high yields and be offered at a competitive cost. It would provide some insurance policy to Apple in that the overall demand for cutting edge 20nm chips from TSMC would be eased, while iPad chips supply becoming essentially risk-free.

Not sure where Samsung is wrt 20nm, but there's been no indication of it being ready anytime soon. On the other hand I believe TSMC will have mastered 20nm volume production by this time next year just in time to fulfill the next iPhone's demand. I'm sure Apple thrown their money at TSMC to make this happen on schedule.

I'd agree with much of what is said here. There seems to be too much of an assumption that a design can simply be poured from one fab process to another.
Let me throw out an alternative scheme which fleshes out what you said above.
Rather than having the A8X and A8 be essentially the same chip, but one is fabbed on 28nm and one on 20nm, how about they're actually very different chips, just with the same name.

The A8 is a die shrink of the A7. It gets the benefit of the lower power and higher frequency from 20nm, but it exists basically as Apple's learning how to move their design to TSMC 20nm.

Meanwhile the A8X is a new microarchitecture still on 28nm. The changes that Apple has lined up are fairly obvious. They are likely going to switch in their own GPU, and they are likely going to tie that GPU as closely as possible to the CPU (ie shared virtual memory space). Which in turn means that at some point they probably want something that looks like Intel's desktop designs, with a small L2 (256kB/core, not the current shared 2MB), a large L3 shared with the GPU, and a ring tying everything together. (Maybe they can hit the speeds they want with the current fabric, but I assume if Intel went with a ring, that shows a switch in the middle is just too complicated and slow or hot.)
There's also the move from two to more cores. (While the hard problem is moving from one to two cores, two to three is still not trivial [synchronization changes from "me vs the other guy" to "me vs WHICH other guy"].) It's possible we see three cores with the A7X, but if not, I'd guess we'll see them on the A8X.

Finally there's the dropping of support for ARM32. The point of dropping this support is that it removes a number of operations that limit the maximum speed (eg the addressing modes, the complex THUMB decoder, the shifts and predication for every instruction) and so allows for ramped up frequency. If Apple did this, they might be able to get the same frequency for the A8X at 28nm as the shrunk A7 (rebranded an A8) at 20nm.

Point is: we've all assumed Apple will follow an Intel tick-tock strategy over the next few years ---new CPU design in odd years, die shrink and process upgrade in even years.
But Apple may feel that they can or want or need to move faster than that by running the tick and the tock in parallel on different chips. The people who follow this sort of thing claim that TSMC not only has 20nm up and running, but expect it to have 16nm FinFET ready next year, and presumably Apple also wants to be ready for that...
 

clibinarius

macrumors 6502a
Aug 26, 2010
671
70
NY
Of course Samsung is happy to assist with production of the A8!

They've probably offered Apple a very attractive price to do so.

Making chips for your competitor is, after all, a good way to keep a close eye on their product plans.

Samsung uses high ram and many cores. Apple, dual cores, now 32 bit. Samsung will more than likely move to 64 bit in the next year, and has been planning to for some time.

How is Samsung ripping Apple off here? Oh wait, you just want Samsung to not exist and your iPhone to cease working. Nevermind. Let's get back to being away from reality...
 

aerok

macrumors 65816
Oct 29, 2011
1,491
139
The Galaxy Note?

You mean the fake iPad.

You're comparing a 10 inch tablet to a 5 inch smartphone with integrated stylus functionality, I'll stop there and let you think about what's wrong here.
 

notjustjay

macrumors 603
Sep 19, 2003
6,056
167
Canada, eh?
Yes Samsung clearly copied other companies when making the Galaxy Note because everybody uses Wacomm on their smartphones. They also copied when introducing the first prototype for a flexible display. Oh and since everybody released a 6 inch phone, they had to release one too! I could go on... :rolleyes:

Not to mention the M7 motion coprocessor. Samsung had to go back in time in order to introduce one in the Galaxy S4, but they clearly copied it from Apple.
 

mdelvecchio

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2010
3,151
1,149
hahahahaha!!! Welcome to the club, the most obvious complaint being $100 to go from 16Gigs to 32Gigs, and $200 to go from 16Gigs to 64Gigs when it costs Apple $19.

$19 may be apple's wholesale cost, but that isnt a retail cost. keep in mind that anytime you buy almost anything, youre paying more than the wholesale cost -- youre paying markup for the distributor, the retailer, the R&D, the marketing, the advertising, keeping the lights on in the office, etc..

----------

Samsung will more than likely move to 64 bit in the next year, and has been planning to for some time.

you know this how? because of the samsung soundbyte the day after apple announced theirs? ah of course.
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
$19 may be apple's wholesale cost, but that isnt a retail cost. keep in mind that anytime you buy almost anything, youre paying more than the wholesale cost -- youre paying markup for the distributor, the retailer, the R&D, the marketing, the advertising, keeping the lights on in the office, etc..

----------



you know this how? because of the samsung soundbyte the day after apple announced theirs? ah of course.

None of those costs are different for these modules. The $100 upcharge for a $19 BOM increase is pure markup.
 

notjustjay

macrumors 603
Sep 19, 2003
6,056
167
Canada, eh?
you know this how? because of the samsung soundbyte the day after apple announced theirs? ah of course.

What theory sounds more plausible? Apple announces a 64-bit processor and Samsung executives are caught totally off guard, send out a press release saying "Pfff, we're doing that as well", then rush onto the engineering floor, and yell "QUICK EVERYBODY! Drop whatever you're doing and redesign our CPU to be 64-bit! Apple did it, we need to do it too!"

Or, you know, maybe 64-bit is a logical progression from 32-bit, and they've been working on this for a while since it's the obvious next step.

Any time Apple releases something, and then a month or two or three later, another company (not just Samsung) announces the same thing, people always say "You copied Apple!" As if they had some other roadmap before, then they dropped everything and revised it to match whatever Apple just did.

Listen, if that is truly the case, then someone has a remarkably agile engineering team. I work for an engineering company. It takes MANY months (if not years) between specification ("it shall be 64-bit") and final, manufactured, tested, shipping product. You don't just change your mind halfway through because you heard a better idea.
 

Count Blah

macrumors 68040
Jan 6, 2004
3,192
2,748
US of A
$19 may be apple's wholesale cost, but that isnt a retail cost. keep in mind that anytime you buy almost anything, youre paying more than the wholesale cost -- youre paying markup for the distributor, the retailer, the R&D, the marketing, the advertising, keeping the lights on in the office, etc..


Yes, which is all baked into the price of the product with the standard 16Gigs.
 

nastri83

macrumors newbie
Feb 19, 2008
21
0
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sofila

macrumors 65816
Jan 19, 2006
1,144
1,325
Ramtop Mountains
$19 may be apple's wholesale cost, but that isnt a retail cost. keep in mind that anytime you buy almost anything, youre paying more than the wholesale cost -- youre paying markup for the distributor, the retailer, the R&D, the marketing, the advertising, keeping the lights on in the office, etc..
I can't believe there's still someone repeating this looping mantra when memory steps prices are discussed. It's a rip-off. :eek:
 
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Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
A look into the A7 processor last week revealed that Samsung was indeed the manufacturer for the chip, with the chip produced at a smaller 28-nm node compared to the 32-nm A6. Currently, the A7 chip is used in the iPhone 5s, and an updated "A7X" version of the chip is almost certainly set to arrive in Apple's next-generation iPad and perhaps an upcoming iPad mini with Retina display.
A look into the A7 also revealed quad-core graphics inside. And in previous chip generations for retina iPads (A5X and A6X) the -X suffix always meant, same basic cpu with an added quad-core gpu. So apparently the A7 already is an A7X chip. You can't update it with what is already in it. Can you?

I hereby predict that from now on, there will be no more special -X variants of Apples A-series chips. Instead the unaltered chips in the newest iPhones will have enough graphics power to also run an iPad with Retina display.

Lets see if I am right or if Ming-Chi Kuo is a better analyst than me predicting the "A7X".
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
What theory sounds more plausible? Apple announces a 64-bit processor and Samsung executives are caught totally off guard, send out a press release saying "Pfff, we're doing that as well", then rush onto the engineering floor, and yell "QUICK EVERYBODY! Drop whatever you're doing and redesign our CPU to be 64-bit! Apple did it, we need to do it too!"

Or, you know, maybe 64-bit is a logical progression from 32-bit, and they've been working on this ...
Nah! Stop it. Your first theory sounded pretty good already. :cool:
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
Making chips for your competitor is, after all, a good way to keep a close eye on their product plans.
Not really. In the end you have to weigh different rumors and judge them with common sense to make sound predictions. You have to think like Apple to understand Apple. And even if you do, there are insurmountable hurdles to overcome to do what Apple does. And you wouldn't play to your own strength in doing so.

Microsoft is a perfect example of a company that tries hard to be like Google with Bing and like Apple with Zune. And fails miserably as a me-too company. Samsungs success with copying Apple is also limited. Think of the Galaxy Gear as an attempt to beat Apple with supposed pre-knowledge about plans for an Apple iWatch.
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
A look into the A7 also revealed quad-core graphics inside. And in previous chip generations for retina iPads (A5X and A6X) the -X suffix always meant, same basic cpu with an added quad-core gpu. So apparently the A7 already is an A7X chip. You can't update it with what is already in it. Can you?

I hereby predict that from now on, there will be no more special -X variants of Apples A-series chips. Instead the unaltered chips in the newest iPhones will have enough graphics power to also run an iPad with Retina display.

Lets see if I am right or if Ming-Chi Kuo is a better analyst than me predicting the "A7X".

The Rogue architecture doesn't have "cores". It has "clusters", where the input and output logic is mostly the same. It's designed to scale much more easily. So it's really just a question of area and power. It doesn't matter how many "clusters" you use.
 

cire

macrumors 6502
Jun 21, 2007
262
0
Actually it is. It points out the hypocrisy of some. Clearly I meant it in jest. But maybe some people will realize how silly it is for them to be so spiteful when in fact they benefit from their existence.

Why? There are plenty of people on this site that claim to love Macs and hate iOS or vice versa. Why can't I like that Apple uses Samsung fabs but hate that Samsung copies Apple and insults me as a customer?
 

patent10021

macrumors 68040
Apr 23, 2004
3,504
792
iPhone 6 dream:

A8
No home button like Steve wanted
5" edge-to edge
water-proof (HzO?)
camera that could compete with top pro-sumer cameras



.
 
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dol4n

macrumors member
Sep 8, 2012
81
0
What theory sounds more plausible? Apple announces a 64-bit processor and Samsung executives are caught totally off guard, send out a press release saying "Pfff, we're doing that as well", then rush onto the engineering floor, and yell "QUICK EVERYBODY! Drop whatever you're doing and redesign our CPU to be 64-bit! Apple did it, we need to do it too!"

Or, you know, maybe 64-bit is a logical progression from 32-bit, and they've been working on this for a while since it's the obvious next step.

Any time Apple releases something, and then a month or two or three later, another company (not just Samsung) announces the same thing, people always say "You copied Apple!" As if they had some other roadmap before, then they dropped everything and revised it to match whatever Apple just did.

Listen, if that is truly the case, then someone has a remarkably agile engineering team. I work for an engineering company. It takes MANY months (if not years) between specification ("it shall be 64-bit") and final, manufactured, tested, shipping product. You don't just change your mind halfway through because you heard a better idea.

You are WRONG!
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
Why? There are plenty of people on this site that claim to love Macs and hate iOS or vice versa. Why can't I like that Apple uses Samsung fabs but hate that Samsung copies Apple and insults me as a customer?
Because narrow-minded people do not allow others to have differentiated opinions. Take sides!
Either you're with us or you with the enemy. He is making that clear.

Apparently if you love freedom and like how Samsung runs its 28-nm fab, you also have to approve everything else Samsung does and the war for freedom. Otherwise you're a hypocrite, peacenik. ;)
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Why? There are plenty of people on this site that claim to love Macs and hate iOS or vice versa. Why can't I like that Apple uses Samsung fabs but hate that Samsung copies Apple and insults me as a customer?

My very first post was in jest. And my followup was very clear "It points out the hypocrisy of some. "

Some. Not all. Not most. SOME.

But let's turn this into a straw man argument based on misinterpretation...
 
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