Secure erase Samsung SSD

[krishnaM]

For your first point - by filling the drive 100%,

.....The "secure erase" command is by far the best way to go.

Is this "secure erase command" same as "ATA secure erase command" by Parted Magic? Does it have any bad effect on SSD? (It sounds like using a 'Defibrillator shock' given to your heart in hospitals)
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TRIM is not necessary. I have had a SSD in my 2010 Mac Pro for over 3 years now with no performance issues.

It is not worth data corruption or causing your mac not to boot (in some cases when your OS updates and Trim Enabler causes it not to boot).
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Yes. It issues an ATA Secure Erase command. Which nearly all SSDs treat as a voltage spike and mark all cells as read only. I use this even if I have had TRIM on the drive in the past.

Also, filling the drive with zeroes is impossible on most SSDs due to wear leveling. Unless they updated it?

Thanks, that is reassuring.

 

[AidenShaw]

Is this "secure erase command" same as "ATA secure erase command" by Parted Magic? Does it have any bad effect on SSD? (It sounds like using a 'Defibrillator shock' given to your heart in hospitals)
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Thanks, that is reassuring.

Since Intel and Samsung include it in their SSD utilities, it should be safe. They probably wouldn't put damaging tools in their utilities.

 

[MrAverigeUser]

Found some articles about this.

Just giving nothing but a link, NOT recommend , nor comment…
But people familiar on PRO-level should do.

http://www.kingston.com/us/community/articledetail?ArticleId=10

(might be interesting because the first SSD-generation in MBP_apple-products was Kingston SATA II-SSDs)

http://computers.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-securely-format-your-ssd--mac-52349

http://www.soundsupport.biz/2014/11...ition-to-securely-erase-your-macs-hard-drive/

https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/how-delete-your-data-securely-mac-os-x

http://www.macworld.com/article/2906499/mac-911-how-to-erase-your-macs-hard-drive-the-right-way.html

I only add three ideas/Questions:

1) Could Carbon CopyCloner help for secure erase?
2) As for (most-selling) SAmsung SSD: Could "normal" erase and then installing in a Windows PC to run Sanmsungs "Magic" SSD-Software help for secure erase? Is it containing tasks for secure erase?
3) Erase under Linux preferable?

 

[krishnaM]

Is this 'Parted Magic' software same for Mac or PCs? They do not specify for which OS it is for.

 

[AidenShaw]

I only add three ideas/Questions:

1) Could Carbon CopyCloner help for secure erase?
2) As for (most-selling) SAmsung SSD: Could "normal" erase and then installing in a Windows PC to run Sanmsungs "Magic" SSD-Software help for secure erase? Is it containing tasks for secure erase?
3) Erase under Linux preferable?

1 -CCC doesn't mention "secure erase" on its site, and web searches didn't pick anything up.

2 - No need to do a normal erase, then secure erase. Magician does have a secure erase command.

3 - Linux might be simpler, since you can boot Linux from a thumb drive to run the secure erase. (My typical tool is Hiren's free "BootCD". It has GParted Magic, secure erase, S.M.A.R.T. and other utilities, and can be booted from a thumb drive. http://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/ )

"ATA Secure Erase" is an old command (the "ATA" means that it pre-dates SATA) that many spinners implement for faster erasing. (Still slow, but faster than using the CPU)

SSD makers decided to interpret that command to electrically (and almost instantly) reset all of the flash cells, using normal flash mechanisms. Calling it a "spike" sounds like a dangerous hack.

 

[Weaselboy]

Is this 'Parted Magic' software same for Mac or PCs? They do not specify for which OS it is for.

Yes... it runs on Linux so can be used on a PC or Mac.

If you want to make the effort, you can actually make yourself a free OS X bootable Linux distro. and run the ATA erase command from there.

 

[MrAverigeUser]

@ AidenShaw
@ Weaselboy


Thank you very much indeed for your advices and explanations!

BTW: As a happy customer of CCC, I will propose the CCC-developer to add a "safe secure" option - I think this would be perfect and add real-life advantages for users.

 

[krishnaM]

Found some articles about this.

Just giving nothing but a link, NOT recommend , nor comment…
But people familiar on PRO-level should do.

http://www.kingston.com/us/community/articledetail?ArticleId=10

(might be interesting because the first SSD-generation in MBP_apple-products was Kingston SATA II-SSDs)

http://computers.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-securely-format-your-ssd--mac-52349

http://www.soundsupport.biz/2014/11...ition-to-securely-erase-your-macs-hard-drive/

https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/how-delete-your-data-securely-mac-os-x

http://www.macworld.com/article/2906499/mac-911-how-to-erase-your-macs-hard-drive-the-right-way.html

All these articles (except for first one) recommend using 'encryption method' using File Vault. For what ever reason I could never enable file vault on my SSD using Mavericks or El Capitan. That is the reason I am little more paranoid about using secure erase.

 

[MrAverigeUser]

BTW: As a happy customer of CCC, I will propose the CCC-developer to add a "safe secure" option - I think this would be perfect and add real-life advantages for users.

done.

All these articles (except for first one) recommend using 'encryption method' using File Vault. For what ever reason I could never enable file vault on my SSD using Mavericks or El Capitan. That is the reason I am little more paranoid about using secure erase.

As I am realizing, ALL data you didn´t encrypt from the very beginning on are resting NON-encrypted on the SSD as long as they were rewritten by samsungs refreshing-Firmware (and also by SSD of other brands) somewhere else on the SSD continuously to have equal wearing of the cells.. If I understand correctly, These data in old sectors seem to be marked as "ready to overwrite" but they are resting non-encryted (Correct me if I am wrong), even under Trim enabled. So encryption before erasing "secure" will help as a first step, making it only a little bit harder but not impossible to recover data. Perhaps generating 2 or even 3 partitions and overwrite them several times with random data one after the other should avoid storage problems and at the same time "guarantee" more effective erasure?I don´t know.

 

[AidenShaw]

done.




As I am realizing, ALL data you didn´t encrypt from the very beginning on are resting NON-encrypted on the SSD as long as they were rewritten by samsungs refreshing-Firmware (and also by SSD of other brands) somewhere else on the SSD continuously to have equal wearing of the cells.. If I understand correctly, These data in old sectors seem to be marked as "ready to overwrite" but they are resting non-encryted (Correct me if I am wrong), even under Trim enabled. So encryption before erasing "secure" will help as a first step, making it only a little bit harder but not impossible to recover data. Perhaps generating 2 or even 3 partitions and overwrite them several times with random data one after the other should avoid storage problems and at the same time "guarantee" more effective erasure?I don´t know.

Flash doesn't have "partial erase" like a spinner. A single "secure erase" is enough to wipe it.

You'll just wear it out faster with anything else. (And only the secure erase will zap the hidden over-provisioned space, although I don't know if there's any way to see that data (other than by unsoldering the chips).)

 

[MrAverigeUser]

All these articles (except for first one) recommend using 'encryption method' using File Vault. For what ever reason I could never enable file vault on my SSD using Mavericks or El Capitan. That is the reason I am little more paranoid about using secure erase.

Flash doesn't have "partial erase" like a spinner. A single "secure erase" is enough to wipe it.

You'll just wear it out faster with anything else. (And only the secure erase will zap the hidden over-provisioned space, although I don't know if there's any way to see that data (other than by unsoldering the chips).)

Thanks again for clarifying.

 

[krishnaM]

One final request before I make the attempt for Parted Magic secure erase: any do's or don'ts regarding this procedure. A brief step by step instructions would be helpful as I don't want to make any stupid mistake.

Thanks for all the replies and support.

 

[flowrider]

Well, there's a whole list of devices that have bugs in this area, right?
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/b...35b5bc7/drivers/ata/libata-core.c#L4109-L4286

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! That's Linux NOT the Mac OS. The problem is with the Linux OS not the device!

TRIM is not necessary. I have had a SSD in my 2010 Mac Pro for over 3 years now with no performance issues.

You have, but you just don't know it and your device is on the way to an earlier end then if TRIM was enabled. Do you think Apple enabled TRIM on it's Apple branded SSDs just for the hellofit? And that a third party company (Angelbird) brought out a line of SSDs identified as an Apple SSD because they also believed TRIM doesn't work? What are you drinking?

Lou

 

[cerberusss]

For your first point - by filling the drive 100%, you've crippled garbage collection.

Second, if you have TRIM you've wasted your time and needlessly added wear to the drive.

Great post, concise and clear explanation. Thanks!
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NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! That's Linux NOT the Mac OS. The problem is with the Linux OS not the device!

As far as I can remember, there were a couple of Samsung models that indeed uncovered a bug in Linux. But for the rest of the drives, they're blacklisted for a reason right?

 

[AidenShaw]

TRIM is not necessary. I have had a SSD in my 2010 Mac Pro for over 3 years now with no performance issues.

You have, but you just don't know it and your device is on the way to an earlier end then if TRIM was enabled.

You should time how long it takes to write a big file (say 4 GB) to your drive.

Then try it with identical drive that's been TRIM'd (or TRIM your drive), and time.

I would bet that it's much slower on your drive. The first few tens of MB are fast (which is why you don't think that you have a problem). It would then slow down to a few tens of MB/sec for the rest of the copy.

The TRIM'd drive would maintain full speed for the length of the copy. (Actually, a "secure erased" drive would maintain full speed, and so would a TRIM'd drive with tons of free space. The TRIM'd drive would slow down some if the drive was mostly full, and be as slow as yours if filled 95% or more.)

 

[MrAverigeUser]

You should time how long it takes to write a big file (say 4 GB) to your drive.

Then try it with identical drive that's been TRIM'd (or TRIM your drive), and time.

I would bet that it's much slower on your drive. The first few tens of MB are fast (which is why you don't think that you have a problem). It would then slow down to a few tens of MB/sec for the rest of the copy.

The TRIM'd drive would maintain full speed for the length of the copy. (Actually, a "secure erased" drive would maintain full speed, and so would a TRIM'd drive with tons of free space. The TRIM'd drive would slow down some if the drive was mostly full, and be as slow as yours if filled 95% or more.)

Should be easy to verify (and to learn about) with fat 4GB or even 16GB files in the (free) AJA system test… or blackmagic Test with bigger files...

 

[Ethosik]

You should time how long it takes to write a big file (say 4 GB) to your drive.

Then try it with identical drive that's been TRIM'd (or TRIM your drive), and time.

I would bet that it's much slower on your drive. The first few tens of MB are fast (which is why you don't think that you have a problem). It would then slow down to a few tens of MB/sec for the rest of the copy.

The TRIM'd drive would maintain full speed for the length of the copy. (Actually, a "secure erased" drive would maintain full speed, and so would a TRIM'd drive with tons of free space. The TRIM'd drive would slow down some if the drive was mostly full, and be as slow as yours if filled 95% or more.)

Nope, no issues. Even the benchmarks on the TRIM Enabler site shows very small improvements. My 2010 Mac Pro is also running SATA 2, so I am stuck at 200 MB/s (around there).

People have been known to argue that running without TRIM makes it extremely slow. I have never had that happen. Heck, I had a Sandisk WITH TRIM enabled and it ran incredibly slow at times. Worse than my Samsung SSDs without TRIM.

 

[A Hobo]

Sure, but we don't care about performance, right? When done, I simply remove those files and wait. The garbage collector or better yet, TRIM kicks in and I reboot and do a fresh reinstall (formatting the drive in the process).
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Well, there's a whole list of devices that have bugs in this area, right?
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/b...35b5bc7/drivers/ata/libata-core.c#L4109-L4286

Ok. Show me where Apple Admitted anything.

 

[cerberusss]

Ok. Show me where Apple Admitted anything.

I was talking about 3rd party SSDs, perhaps we misunderstand each other?

 

[goMac]

There are certain 3rd party SSDs that have bad TRIM implementations. You can run them under Windows or Linux with TRIM and they'll corrupt themselves. That's all Apple's disclaimer means. If you've had a drive with a bad TRIM implementation in your machines for the past 4 years, turning on TRIM might cause it to corrupt itself.

Apple's TRIM drivers are no better or worse than what you'd find on Windows or Linux. Stop with the scare tactics. If you have a drive that has a reliable TRIM implementation on Windows, it'll be just fine in OS X.

(This is also why Apple never turned on blanket TRIM on everything by default. They didn't want to get blamed when someone updated their OS to a version with TRIM, and then suddenly their drive started corrupting itself because they bought a cheap drive.)

 

[l008com]

Do people not realize how utterly pointless it is to do a secure/zero erase, versus a normal erase/format, on a drive you are KEEPING. The point is to make sure future users can't recover your data. But if you are just reinstalling your OS for your own use, the drive is no "MORE ERASED" if you zero it, vs if you regular quick-format it. Doing a zero for a drive you are keeping is absurd.

 

[AidenShaw]

Do people not realize how utterly pointless it is to do a secure/zero erase, versus a normal erase/format, on a drive you are KEEPING.

On an SSD, secure erase is a quick operation that essentially does a TRIM on the entire drive.

This is not pointless - it makes all cells (even the hidden over-provisioned cells) available for immediate use without garbage collection.

I consider it good practice to do a secure erase whenever I reformat an SSD.

 

[Weaselboy]

On an SSD, secure erase is a quick operation that essentially does a TRIM on the entire drive.

This is not pointless - it makes all cells (even the hidden over-provisioned cells) available for immediate use without garbage collection.

I consider it good practice to do a secure erase whenever I reformat an SSD.

Are you referring to the "Secure Erase ATA" command? I have not seen a way to do that under macOS without booting to some sort of Linux distro. Have you found a way under macOS?

 

[AidenShaw]

Are you referring to the "Secure Erase ATA" command? I have not seen a way to do that under macOS without booting to some sort of Linux distro. Have you found a way under macOS?

I usually boot a Linux Live CD to do it.

Samsung Magician on Windows has a "Secure Erase" option, when you click you get:

 

[Weaselboy]

I usually boot a Linux Live CD to do it.

Samsung Magician on Windows has a "Secure Erase" option, when you click you get:

Gotcha thanks... I was hoping you had found a way in macOS.