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You’re not me

macrumors regular
Sep 23, 2021
151
188
Well no, of course not. But that’s down to the culture of hi-fi audiophiles as much as anything.

1) You can’t easily hook up analog or non-Apple audio sources to HomePods. (There are ways of doing it, but they’re involved and possibly more trouble than it’s worth.)
2) The whole computational audio business is pretty antithetical to the audiophile/audiophool mindset. It’s very much like car gearheads’ preference for manual transmissions over automatic transmissions, audiophiles want to be able to fiddle with their speakers to get the perfect setup (and to buy new gear to elevate their setup*). That all is stuff you don’t get with a more automatic solution like HomePods.
3) They’re Apple. The audiophile market is as much about status as anything else, in my experience. It’s about being able to name drop a notable brand like Sennheiser as much as anything, and Apple’s not expensive enough, not exclusive enough, and doesn’t have the strong history of audio reputation.

* In many ways, the audiophile hobby strikes me as being very similar to ultralight camping. Sometimes, it seems like practitioners of ultralight camping spend more time focusing on shaving ounces than actually being outdoors camping. Oftentimes, it’s also about buying expensive ultralight gear to chase clout. There’s definitely an element of this in the audiophile community.
There are “audiophiles”(whatever they are) and then there are people who make a living doing this whole sound thingy(which some call audio). There seem to be a few who commented on this thread. They are completely correct in the fact that Apple’s HomePods are, well, crap. I know that some will disagree with me on this but the fact remains. Apple hasn’t done anything positive for music ever. This spatial audio that they’re pushing is destroying music.



I don’t have the time at this moment to finish my thoughts but I will be back.

I’m baaack.

I have been mixing for over 25 years. Music recording and mixing, also, for tv/movies, dialogue editing, music editing, rerecording engineer, on occasion supervising sound editor and more.
I have a policy of no names and/or anything else online that would identify projects or people so that conversations don’t devolve into pissing contests.

Has anyone asked the OP what he/she listens to or what she/he is used to listening to music on?
These are by far the most important questions. What are the expectations of the OP?
Let’s start there.


Oh, btw, women more often than not, have better ears and make better mixers. I’m jealous.
 
Last edited:

heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
743
1,169
Denver, CO
Well no, of course not. But that’s down to the culture of hi-fi audiophiles as much as anything.

1) You can’t easily hook up analog or non-Apple audio sources to HomePods. (There are ways of doing it, but they’re involved and possibly more trouble than it’s worth.)
2) The whole computational audio business is pretty antithetical to the audiophile/audiophool mindset. It’s very much like car gearheads’ preference for manual transmissions over automatic transmissions, audiophiles want to be able to fiddle with their speakers to get the perfect setup (and to buy new gear to elevate their setup*). That all is stuff you don’t get with a more automatic solution like HomePods.
3) They’re Apple. The audiophile market is as much about status as anything else, in my experience. It’s about being able to name drop a notable brand like Sennheiser as much as anything, and Apple’s not expensive enough, not exclusive enough, and doesn’t have the strong history of audio reputation.

* In many ways, the audiophile hobby strikes me as being very similar to ultralight camping. Sometimes, it seems like practitioners of ultralight camping spend more time focusing on shaving ounces than actually being outdoors camping. Oftentimes, it’s also about buying expensive ultralight gear to chase clout. There’s definitely an element of this in the audiophile community.
Gold star for creativity and above average EQ @kc9hzn. You found a constructive and gracious way to respond to a comment that was neither. 🙏🏽
 

heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
743
1,169
Denver, CO
There are “audiophiles”(whatever they are) and then there are people who make a living doing this whole sound thingy(which some call audio). There seem to be a few who commented on this thread. They are completely correct in the fact that Apple’s HomePods are, well, crap. I know that some will disagree with me on this but the fact remains. Apple hasn’t done anything positive for music ever. This spatial audio that they’re pushing is destroying music.



I don’t have the time at this moment to finish my thoughts but I will be back.

I’m baaack.

I have been mixing for over 25 years. Music recording and mixing, also, for tv/movies, dialogue editing, music editing, rerecording engineer, on occasion supervising sound editor and more.
I have a policy of no names and/or anything else online that would identify projects or people so that conversations don’t devolve into pissing contests.

Has anyone asked the OP what he/she listens to or what she/he is used to listening to music on?
These are by far the most important questions. What are the expectations of the OP?
Let’s start there.


Oh, btw, women more often than not, have better ears and make better mixers. I’m jealous.
🙄
 

Pag46

macrumors newbie
Aug 1, 2023
9
3
Has anyone asked the OP what he/she listens to or what she/he is used to listening to music on?
These are by far the most important questions. What are the expectations of the OP?
Let’s start there.

Well, you are right, this is the most important thing, but there was no need to ask, as the OP wrote it in his original post, together with his listening position:

“Small room, not very reflective (pretty furnished), I’ll be sitting about 6-8 feet fom the speakers. The music is various, jazz, classical, pop, rock, electronica, but not much of it base heavy or thumping; a lot of piano and stuff like Eno.”

It’s a bit of everything, so he look for an all-rounder solution.

Someone above suggested to look at open-back headphones instead of speakers. It could really be a very good solution. Something in the budget like Sennheiser 660s2 or Meze 109 Pro can give lot of fun.
 

OldCorpse

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 7, 2005
1,758
347
compost heap
[...]Has anyone asked the OP what he/she listens to or what she/he is used to listening to music on?
These are by far the most important questions. What are the expectations of the OP?
Let’s start there.[...]
Thank you for your thoughts. I read every post and consider carefully. I understand that folks will disagree amongst themselves, but that is to be expected, and ultimately I know it is up to me to decide. My aim in starting this thread was to expand the horizon of the choices that might be available to me, and as a way of challenging my own thinking in considering the perspectives of others, ideas I would not have had on my own. It doesn't mean I take everything on faith, I still try to integrate what I read into some kind of coherent context of my own circumstances and requirements.

In answering your question. I hinted about this in my first post, but to expand: 70% of what I listen to, is classical and ambient. Classical in turn is mostly piano and chamber music, much less symphonies. Ambient, all kinds, from Eno and much more minimalist to more toward the EDM end of things, Aphex Twin etc.. Next, about 20% is jazz and electronica and experimental. The remaining is stuff like world music (especially Indian), Latin etc. Some pop/rock, though very narrowly, mostly stuff from the 70's to 90's (on rotation: Bowie, Roxy Music, Velvet Underground, Lou Reed, Robert Wyatt, Iggy Pop, The Stooges, The Smiths, handful of others) - but NO heavy metal, metal of any kind. Finally, a lil bit of hip hop (more the experimental end, not commercial).

In my SMALL office - which is what I'm trying to set up - I will NOT be listening at high volume, the vast majority is not bass heavy, with big emphasis on clarity especially high-mid range, good vocals, transparency of sound, no heavy coloration. Obviously, I'm used to my music and I've listened to it on big electrostatic Martin Logans - that's what Im used to. I understand that no way can I approach this on budget speakers, I'm saying this to give context to what I'm looking for in sound projection - I like clarity, hate muddy. Not loud, but very, very transparent. Neutral, more toward studio monitor "flat", and not party "colored" speakers. Somebody asked about headphones, yes, I have a couple high end Sennheisers, but because I tend to listen for hours and hours, I find it very fatiguing with headphones, no matter how good. I need speakers.

To be honest, I have listened to my friend's Yamaha hs8 pair, also recommended in this thread, and I rather like their sound - except, it's almost too much speaker for my small space, not only are they larger than what I want to put in this small office, but are pretty overwhelming in that larger speakers shine at higher volume, and I can't play higher volume in the office - so they'd be kinda wasted on this space.

Anyhow, I don't know if this makes things more clear. Perhaps I will mention manner of listening too - I tend toward the obsessive - I'll put on an album, or even a song, on repeat for hours and listen endlessly; which is why I really, really like clarity and transparency, where I can hear nuances on repetition, say #12, and muddy, pushy speakers with artifacts are completely unlistenable for me - I need neutral, clean, "flat", since there might be days when I just listen to one album on repeat the entire day :).
 

Ben J.

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2019
655
354
Oslo
which is why I really, really like clarity and transparency, where I can hear nuances on repetition, say #12, and muddy, pushy speakers with artifacts are completely unlistenable for me - I need neutral, clean, "flat", since there might be days when I just listen to one album on repeat the entire day :).
I can tell you that the Topping D50 will give you more detail, clarity etc than the mentioned Focusrite Scarlett, nevermind the mac headphones output. Provided you have the speakers, room and ears to hear it, that is. I've compared Scarletts and Topping D50/E30 directly on my Dynaudio BM6s and the Toppings are a step up. Also, I find them "easier" to listen to; on soft level, they "bite thru", and on loud levels, they are less tiring. Well worth their price.

I agree with the post suggesting finding a shop that lets you compare some music you know well, on different speaker models. That would let you avoid some of the too bright, harsh ones that I find people are using these days.
 
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Lift Bar

macrumors regular
Nov 1, 2023
144
272
Thank you for your thoughts. I read every post and consider carefully. I understand that folks will disagree amongst themselves, but that is to be expected, and ultimately I know it is up to me to decide. My aim in starting this thread was to expand the horizon of the choices that might be available to me, and as a way of challenging my own thinking in considering the perspectives of others, ideas I would not have had on my own. It doesn't mean I take everything on faith, I still try to integrate what I read into some kind of coherent context of my own circumstances and requirements.

In answering your question. I hinted about this in my first post, but to expand: 70% of what I listen to, is classical and ambient. Classical in turn is mostly piano and chamber music, much less symphonies. Ambient, all kinds, from Eno and much more minimalist to more toward the EDM end of things, Aphex Twin etc.. Next, about 20% is jazz and electronica and experimental. The remaining is stuff like world music (especially Indian), Latin etc. Some pop/rock, though very narrowly, mostly stuff from the 70's to 90's (on rotation: Bowie, Roxy Music, Velvet Underground, Lou Reed, Robert Wyatt, Iggy Pop, The Stooges, The Smiths, handful of others) - but NO heavy metal, metal of any kind. Finally, a lil bit of hip hop (more the experimental end, not commercial).

In my SMALL office - which is what I'm trying to set up - I will NOT be listening at high volume, the vast majority is not bass heavy, with big emphasis on clarity especially high-mid range, good vocals, transparency of sound, no heavy coloration. Obviously, I'm used to my music and I've listened to it on big electrostatic Martin Logans - that's what Im used to. I understand that no way can I approach this on budget speakers, I'm saying this to give context to what I'm looking for in sound projection - I like clarity, hate muddy. Not loud, but very, very transparent. Neutral, more toward studio monitor "flat", and not party "colored" speakers. Somebody asked about headphones, yes, I have a couple high end Sennheisers, but because I tend to listen for hours and hours, I find it very fatiguing with headphones, no matter how good. I need speakers.

To be honest, I have listened to my friend's Yamaha hs8 pair, also recommended in this thread, and I rather like their sound - except, it's almost too much speaker for my small space, not only are they larger than what I want to put in this small office, but are pretty overwhelming in that larger speakers shine at higher volume, and I can't play higher volume in the office - so they'd be kinda wasted on this space.

Anyhow, I don't know if this makes things more clear. Perhaps I will mention manner of listening too - I tend toward the obsessive - I'll put on an album, or even a song, on repeat for hours and listen endlessly; which is why I really, really like clarity and transparency, where I can hear nuances on repetition, say #12, and muddy, pushy speakers with artifacts are completely unlistenable for me - I need neutral, clean, "flat", since there might be days when I just listen to one album on repeat the entire day :).
This is up to you. Time to try a few out and see which you like.

Here's a list of 20 flat-response speakers, including a mix of options within the approximate price range you mentioned:

1. Adam Audio T5V
2. KRK Rokit 5 G4
3. JBL 305P MkII
4. Yamaha HS5
5. Mackie MR524
6. PreSonus Eris E5
7. Behringer Truth B1030A
8. IK Multimedia iLoud Micro Monitor
9. Focal Alpha 50
10. Genelec 8010A
11. M-Audio BX5 D3
12. Fluid Audio F5
13. Tannoy Reveal 502
14. Alesis Elevate 5 MKII
15. Kali Audio LP-6
16. Neumann KH 120 A
17. Dynaudio LYD 5
18. Samson MediaOne BT5
19. HEDD Audio Type 05
20. Eve Audio SC205

Please note, prices and availability can vary, and some models may be above the specified budget.
 

Boyd01

Moderator
Staff member
Feb 21, 2012
7,696
4,576
New Jersey Pine Barrens
The JBL 305 studio monitors with the 5" woofer already provide better bass performance, quite a difference in size.

FWIW, I got a pair of these a number of years ago to replace my 5" M-Audio monitors when one of them blew (guess they're the previous generation, mine don't say "MK II" like yours). I built some simple stands from scrap wood with a foam pad to isolate them somewhat from the computer table. Have been very happy with them, I play piano and guitar, shoot video and record 8 track audio which I edit in Logic and Final Cut Pro. (Have been retired for quite awhile now, so it's just occasional fun projects with my talented family now).

Still using a 2018 Mini and they're just connected to the audio-out port, which is fine for my needs.
 

MajorFubar

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2021
2,091
3,697
Lancashire UK
Oh, btw, women more often than not, have better ears and make better mixers. I’m jealous.
The tragedy I always found is, they have the potential to, but most are happy with the sound of any old crap and don't know how to listen. This is exacly mirrored in the hifi space which again is almost entirely male.

20% of the most successful artists are female, but only 2% of producers are. Females just don't have the interest in music production, though I don't know why. In Summer my twin boys finished a three-year University course in music production, both leaving with BA (Hons) First-Class. About 40% of the original intake on the course in September 2020 were female. Literally none of the females made it to the end. They just weren't interested in learning production techniques.

There are a few exceptions: Annie Lennox and Kate Bush immediately spring to mind, and there will be others. Very true to say that I can't name a bad female producer.
 

Flynnsworth

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2023
51
86
I need neutral, clean, "flat"
Don’t be scared to take yourself to an audio equipment store where they will let you demo equipment and give you some recommendations. The likes of Richer Sounds usually price match too.

The best advice you will get is from your own ears. Take some of your own music with you that you know well.
 

gigatoaster

macrumors 68000
Jul 22, 2018
1,536
2,928
France
I think you should consider hi-fi range setup. It’s a budget and there is a lot of snake-oil but you can really find something that pleases your ears.

One thing you should check: the second hand market. Not sure which country you’re based but there must be platforms for already used gears. And you can find precious things, although audiophiles are crazy and are all middle aged man that have bionic ears even though biologically they simply can’t after 50 years old, they tend to take good care of their gear. So you can find an integrated amp/DAC and speakers for a decent price, I would say something between 500 to 1000 USD/EUR.

One rule to always follow though: always listen before you buy with your own music (preferably in lossless format, FLAC is the most common).
 

OldCorpse

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 7, 2005
1,758
347
compost heap
Thank you everyone! I'm in the process of trying to arrange speaker demos. Of course, my own ALAC music files I know etc. There is some nuance in that not every place will have an easy way of hooking up my source (if it's say an iPhone), and for passive speakers there's the whole chain of amps etc. which means you're auditioning the whole chain and not just the speakers, which of course makes it hard to A/B, especially if they switch up the chain between speakers. Also, I can't A/B speakers immediately in the same environment as a particular place might have only one or two speakers from the list you guys provided.

In any case, I'm afraid it just isn't practical for me to go through the whole list of some 20 speakers recommended in this thread, for the simple reason that many will just not be available physically within a reasonable distance - I'm in LA, CA, and many can be ordered or special ordered, but are not physically on hand. Besides, gee, we're talking sub $1K speakers, I can't spend weeks driving around, I gotta cut bait and get on with it.

So, my idea is to create a short list of speakers that one can call "top contenders" that are actually reasonably available to listen to, and just pick from those. That means that I probably can't audition some of the more exotic ones, or ones which are not within immediate reach of my geographical location... them's the breaks. On the other hand, some of the speakers that were recommended, were recommended by more than one poster, so those certainly move onto the list as it seems there is more consensus that they're worthy contenders, the JBLs, the Yamahas (even HomePods!) etc. But as always, my ears will be the final arbiter. Regardless of what one reads, reviews etc., pre-conceived ideas etc., it's the ears - even when I'm prejudiced, or biased, I try to LISTEN - f.ex. I'm somewhat biased against the HomePods, because I just find it hard to believe that they can fill up a dead space and not be brittle/overdriven, plus I'm uneasy about wireless in general... still, I try to let my ears decide, not my preconceived ideas - as the saying goes when the politician asked a voter "whom are you going to believe, ME, or your lying eyes?" - it's my (probably flawed anyhow) ears every time. In the end it's as less about even objective measurements, as it is about subjective taste almost regardless of what the response curves show on paper or on some measuring instrument.

And whatever I pick, all the posters who recommended a different setup will go "what a moron" - sigh, can't please everyone, but ultimately it's me who has to live with these longer term, so I apologize ahead of time if I made the wrong choice in your opinioin :)

But meanwhile, I remain very grateful to all you good folks for your thoughts and ideas. I'm hoping to make my choice before X-mas, lol, so I can greet the new year with new speakers!
 

BrianBaughn

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2011
9,640
2,411
Baltimore, Maryland
Once again…I'll mention that "nearfield" monitors aren't designed for listening 6'-8' away.

Most, if not all, of the speakers listed in post #57 are nearfield monitors.
 

OldCorpse

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 7, 2005
1,758
347
compost heap
Thank you BrianBaughn, I understand where you're coming from. However, the issue of "nearfield" is not going to guide my choices, as that's a can of worms. Since I'll mostly be sitting, they'll be at ear-level. The office is not very reflective, so that's not as much of a worry wrt. nearfield monitors. The final question is the distance issue, but well, we can't have everything - since I don't need very high volume, I'm sure most speakers on these lists will be more than enough.

I'm making slow progress here, but before I can put everything together, there's another issue I need to ask the community about, and that's far more crucial to the whole enterprise, so I'll make a separate post. Thank you again, everyone!
 

OldCorpse

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 7, 2005
1,758
347
compost heap
UPDATE: I've gone ahead and made my choices.

Ultimately, I settled on a pair of Yamahas HS5. This was not a result of super extensive A/B tests - in truth, I didn't have access to very many speakers for tests, or it would've taken a long time to search out some exotics from the lists folks have kindly provided. In the end, I tested just a handful and it came down to the HS5 and the JBL 305s. I really liked the JBLs, it was very close, I went with the HS5s because what the JBLs had going for them was slighly less essential - they were more powerful with a confident greater volume and richer low end.

Yet, the decisive factor was my office - it's a small space, and I would not listen at high volume, so all those advantages of the JBLs were somewhat discounted. Meanwhile, the HS5s were just so very neutral (to my ears) and I appreciated that in the end, the transparency and the light touch won out, because that's what would be more essential at lower volumes. With such speakers sometimes there's a danger of tweeter fatigue and a more prominent high end can be tiring over many hours. But I don't think this will happen in my case, as the high end is not brittle here and at a low/moderate volume, not an issue at all. Throw in the fact, that I'm no longer a teenager, and so there is some attenuation in sound perception of the high end, so I think it'll be just fine.

Also, I did end up getting the Topping E50 DAC. It may seem like a waste of $, but as I intimated before, my primary purpose with the DAC is not that I will perceive some ultra subtle sound nuances, but the simple fact that I wanted a way of controlling the sound volume with a remote (the HS5's only have knobs). That's it, honest! I mean, if there is an improvement in sound, that's gravy, but it's not something I was counting on. The volume control on the E50 is very, very good - we're talking pretty smooth graduation, no "stepping" effect at all, very gradual - quite happy about this.

There's some necessary adjustment to the room furniture and placement, but I think I ended up with a reasonably good speaker positioning for my listening modality.

I realize that I didn't explore all the exotics, but ultimately time was also a factor, as I wanted to conclude this process in a reasonable timeframe. Thus far, I'm happy with the end result.

Thank you again everyone for a tremendous response, and I hope that this thread will be useful to many other readers now and into the future, should they stumble upon it. Truly it was not an effort wasted, but instead highly educational. Mille grazie!
 
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Ben J.

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2019
655
354
Oslo
UPDATE: I've gone ahead and made my choices.

Ultimately, I settled on a pair of Yamahas HS5. This was not a result of super extensive A/B tests - in truth, I didn't have access to very many speakers for tests, or it would've taken a long time to search out some exotics from the lists folks have kindly provided. In the end, I tested just a handful and it came down to the HS5 and the JBL 305s. I really liked the JBLs, it was very close, I went with the HS5s because what the JBLs had going for them was slighly less essential - they were more powerful with a confident greater volume and richer low end.

Yet, the decisive factor was my office - it's a small space, and I would not listen at high volume, so all those advantages of the JBLs were somewhat discounted. Meanwhile, the HS5s were just so very neutral (to my ears) and I appreciated that in the end, the transparency and the light touch won out, because that's what would be more essential at lower volumes. With such speakers sometimes there's a danger of tweeter fatigue and a more prominent high end can be tiring over many hours. But I don't think this will happen in my case, as the high end is not brittle here and at a low/moderate volume, not an issue at all. Throw in the fact, that I'm no longer a teenager, and so there is some attenuation in sound perception of the high end, so I think it'll be just fine.

Also, I did end up getting the Topping E50 DAC. It may seem like a waste of $, but as I intimated before, my primary purpose with the DAC is not that I will perceive some ultra subtle sound nuances, but the simple fact that I wanted a way of controlling the sound volume with a remote (the HS5's only have knobs). That's it, honest! I mean, if there is an improvement in sound, that's gravy, but it's not something I was counting on. The volume control on the E50 is very, very good - we're talking pretty smooth graduation, no "stepping" effect at all, very gradual - quite happy about this.

There's some necessary adjustment to the room furniture and placement, but I think I ended up with a reasonably good speaker positioning for my listening modality.

I realize that I didn't explore all the exotics, but ultimately time was also a factor, as I wanted to conclude this process in a reasonable timeframe. Thus far, I'm happy with the end result.

Thank you again everyone for a tremendous response, and I hope that this thread will be useful to many other readers now and into the future, should they stumble upon it. Truly it was not an effort wasted, but instead highly educational. Mille grazie!
Good job. Hope it will sound good.
Please, if you find the time; make a quick comparison by feeding the Yamahas with the E50 versus the mac audio output, and report back.
 

StoneJack

macrumors 68020
Dec 19, 2009
2,435
1,530
Few months ago I set up Eris Presonus 3.5, Scarlett Solo setup for simple editing in Logic and Final Cut Pro. Works very well. I also added audio technica M40x, M20X, M20BT (I love Audio Technica) headphones to the mix.
 

OldCorpse

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Dec 7, 2005
1,758
347
compost heap
UPDATE: I've been living with this setup now for about a week (M2 MM, Topping E50 DAC, Yamaha HS5), and so far I must say, I'm very pleased. There are still a few minor things I must adjust and also figure out how to get my iPad 10 to be able to control the MM's Music app so I can play music without having to use my MBA to get to the MM.

I am very happy with the SQ and I must say, there is zero problems with the low end (my major worry with the HS5) or tiring high end. And crucially, there is more - way more ! - than enough high quality volume the HS5s can deliver in this small office space; I never find myself needing to push the HS5 even close to the distortion-free volume limits. There's plenty of power to spare. This confirms to me that the extra power available from the JBLs or HS8 would've been overkill for my office music listening needs.


[And Ben J. I have not forgotten your request for an A/B with/without the DAC; but for that I need the cooperation of my wife so that I can set up a truly blind test and also have more than one listener (her high end hearing is much better than mine, and in general she has exceptional hearing); the problem is in dragging her down to my office, which she's not eager to do - so it may take a while :)]
 
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