SSD Problems

[MacRobert10]

Anyone using Yosemite should get used to the fact that they probably need an auxiliary boot drive with anything but Yosemite on it. I've read about and know people with the following problems on it:

• SSDs using TRIM develop NVRAM corruption requiring a somewhat lengthy reconfiguration procedure
• eSATA drives being totally screwed up on systems with 3rd party eSATA cards
• Firewire drives ejecting for no reason
• USB drives ejecting or going to sleep for no reason
• SSDs becoming Invisible.

Just exactly what's going on at Apple anyways? Did everyone that knew anything quit when Steve Jobs died?

No, these are not SSD or other drive problems, but people think they are!

 

[JTToft]

Anyone using Yosemite should get used to the fact that they probably need an auxiliary boot drive with anything but Yosemite on it.

- Rubbish. I definitely have no need for any other OS. For me, Yosemite is the best OS X version since Snow Leopard.

I've read about and know people with the following problems on it:

• SSDs using TRIM develop NVRAM corruption requiring a somewhat lengthy reconfiguration procedure
• eSATA drives being totally screwed up on systems with 3rd party eSATA cards
• Firewire drives ejecting for no reason
• USB drives ejecting or going to sleep for no reason
• SSDs becoming Invisible.

- And as long as we're in the realm of anecdotal evidence, I might as well add that I've had none of those issues.

Number 2 doesn't apply to me, though, as I don't use eSATA.

 

[MacRobert10]

- Rubbish. I definitely have no need for any other OS. For me, Yosemite is the best OS X version since Snow Leopard.


- And as long as we're in the realm of anecdotal evidence, I might as well add that I've had none of those issues.

Number 2 doesn't apply to me, though, as I don't use eSATA.

Anecdotal evidence? You mean like the barrage of complaints being lodged about Yosemite in the App Store? How about all the lists of problems found on this site in the Yosemite section? Are they all everyone's imagination?

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

 

[JTToft]

Anecdotal evidence? You mean like the barrage of complaints being lodged about Yosemite in the App Store? How about all the lists of problems found on this site in the Yosemite section? Are they all everyone's imagination?

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

- By anecdotal evidence, I mostly meant my own reference to Yosemite being the best OS X since SL, not your list of problems.
But yes, the App Store complaints are, by virtue of being user comments, precisely anecdotal. But that's not to say they aren't true of those users' experiences or that they aren't problems inherent in Yosemite. Anecdotal doesn't necessarily mean untrue.

The motivation behind my reply to you was to counter your statement that "anyone using Yosemite should get used to the fact that they probably need an auxiliary boot drive with anything but Yosemite on it" by saying that I don't need such an auxiliary boot device.

I don't think anyone's age is relevant to these discussions, so I believe I'll deny your request for that information.

 

[sjinsjca]

- Rubbish. I definitely have no need for any other OS. For me, Yosemite is the best OS X version since Snow Leopard.

Agreed. It's really nice.

 

[simonsi]

Anecdotal evidence? You mean like the barrage of complaints being lodged about Yosemite in the App Store? How about all the lists of problems found on this site in the Yosemite section? Are they all everyone's imagination?

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

Anecdotes in whatever volume don't constitute data. They are anecdotes and no more. Because of that, all anecdotes have equal "value". Self-selecting sets of anecdotes are about the worst source of actionable conclusions, unfortunately many on here confuse the two (anecdotes and data).

Yosemite works fine for me too.

 

[MacRobert10]

Yosemite is very buggy for me. In fact I'd say it's the buggiest OS I've seen in years. I am not the only one reporting that. The only statistics we have available are what we can obtain, and that isn't really very much.

You can call it anecdotal if you want to, but the numbers showing up in the App Store obviously aren't being fabricated by Apple.

 

[simonsi]

Yosemite is very buggy for me. In fact I'd say it's the buggiest OS I've seen in years. I am not the only one reporting that. The only statistics we have available are what we can obtain, and that isn't really very much.

You can call it anecdotal if you want to, but the numbers showing up in the App Store obviously aren't being fabricated by Apple.

Can you see total Yosemite installations in the App Store? No - so for all you know Yosemite may well be generating fewer issues per installation than previous OS X versions? That is why it needs a proper set of data (which Apple has), to make decisions, not "anecdotal user noise".

 

[MacRobert10]

Can you see total Yosemite installations in the App Store? No - so for all you know Yosemite may well be generating fewer issues per installation than previous OS X versions? That is why it needs a proper set of data (which Apple has), to make decisions, not "anecdotal user noise".

You can throw out "anecdotal evidence" all you want to, but problems exists, and serious problems at that with Yosemite.

I work with 3 systems: One is a Mac Pro, one is an iMac, and one is an old 2009 Macbook. I use huge displays with the Mac Pro and it brings out every single flaw in the visual, and might I add, IGNORANT, design of Yosemite. It looks barely acceptable on the iMac, and actually looks OK on the MacBook. The smaller the display, the better it looks. That's my opinion.

Graham Perrin posted a link to an interview of Jonathan Ive in which Ive basically stated that he really didn't know anything at all about computers and operating systems, and yet here he is, a glorified box designer, managing to get senior people FIRED or FORCED OUT of Apple because they disagree with his opinions. Others have complained that he's violating standard OS design principals, like using 3D effects and buttons to identify controls, and they're now being replaced by hyperlinks and white boxes.

Regarding bugs: They're totally system dependent. The Mac Pro has exhibited some, the iMac even more, and the MacBook has enough bugs with Yosemite to render it useless, utterly useless. Ironically, the MacBook with its smaller display makes it look the best.

Yosemite is a pathetically thought out operating system being turned over to an egomaniacal executive who doesn't know what he's doing. Instead of relying on others that knew what they're doing and valuing their input, even if it disagreed with what he liked, he just got them FIRED, and what's left is a disorganized mess. Like someone else said, it's sort of like a hospital that was happy with the work of a plastic surgeon decided that since he can do plastic surgery, surely he can handle the cardiac care wing as well.

As an FYI, in the U.S. the ratio of 1-star ratings vs. 5-star ratings of Yosemite in the App Store is now 2:1. A new low. If you think all these people are making all this stuff up, I suggest you think again.

If you want to prove otherwise, please show a similar complaint level for any of the other OS X versions previously released. The thread "Yosemite is Ugly" on this site is one of the site leaders…second only to the complaints thread.

 

[JTToft]

You can throw out "anecdotal evidence" all you want to, but problems exists, and serious problems at that with Yosemite.

As an FYI, in the U.S. the ratio of 1-star ratings vs. 5-star ratings of Yosemite in the App Store is now 2:1. A new low. If you think all these people are making all this stuff up, I suggest you think again.

- We're not saying there isn't problems, or that people are making things up.
The point is that the sort of anecdotes that App Store reviews are, are completely useless at determining the spread or severity of problems with what they're reviewing.
No amount of negative reviews proves there's necessarily something wrong with the object of the review. It just proves that amount of users are having problems, and without proper statistics, those reviews are basically useless.
Look up self-selection bias.

It's similar to the way that reported problems with MacBook Pros in this subforum can't be used to conclude on the reliability or quality of MacBook Pros in general.

It's not that those user reviews are necessarily untrue of Yosemite; they just aren't necessarily true of it.

 

[MacRobert10]

- We're not saying there isn't problems, or that people are making things up.
The point is that the sort of anecdotes that App Store reviews are, are completely useless at determining the spread or severity of problems with what they're reviewing.
No amount of negative reviews proves there's necessarily something wrong with the object of the review. It just proves that amount of users are having problems, and without proper statistics, those reviews are basically useless.
Look up self-selection bias.

It's similar to the way that reported problems with MacBook Pros in this subforum can't be used to conclude on the reliability or quality of MacBook Pros in general.

It's not that those user reviews are necessarily untrue of Yosemite; they just aren't necessarily true of it.

Previously you stated that my suggestion to put Yosemite on another hard drive and test it was "rubbish" citing "It worked fine" for you. It obviously doesn't work fine for everyone. The number of complaints about Yosemite far outweigh anything I've seen on any OS X release. I've never seen a release of OS X where the 1 star to 5 star rating was 3:1 - never!

 

[JTToft]

Previously you stated that my suggestion to put Yosemite on another hard drive and test it was "rubbish"

- Good job there on misquoting both yourself and me.
Your suggestion was that "anyone" using Yosemite probably needs something else on an auxiliary drive (presumably as a backup for when and if Yosemite doesn't work properly), which I countered by saying that I definitely don't need it. And that fact makes your claim incorrect - and therefore "rubbish".
I don't mean to be pedantic, but it seems the issue needs spelling out in order for you to understand it...

It obviously doesn't work fine for everyone.

- Obviously. And I've never claimed otherwise.

 

[BradHatter]

Do you think it would be possible for us to stay on topic?

 

[simonsi]

You can throw out "anecdotal evidence" all you want to, but problems exists, and serious problems at that with Yosemite.

I work with 3 systems: One is a Mac Pro, one is an iMac, and one is an old 2009 Macbook. I use huge displays with the Mac Pro and it brings out every single flaw in the visual, and might I add, IGNORANT, design of Yosemite. It looks barely acceptable on the iMac, and actually looks OK on the MacBook. The smaller the display, the better it looks. That's my opinion.

Graham Perrin posted a link to an interview of Jonathan Ive in which Ive basically stated that he really didn't know anything at all about computers and operating systems, and yet here he is, a glorified box designer, managing to get senior people FIRED or FORCED OUT of Apple because they disagree with his opinions. Others have complained that he's violating standard OS design principals, like using 3D effects and buttons to identify controls, and they're now being replaced by hyperlinks and white boxes.

Regarding bugs: They're totally system dependent. The Mac Pro has exhibited some, the iMac even more, and the MacBook has enough bugs with Yosemite to render it useless, utterly useless. Ironically, the MacBook with its smaller display makes it look the best.

Yosemite is a pathetically thought out operating system being turned over to an egomaniacal executive who doesn't know what he's doing. Instead of relying on others that knew what they're doing and valuing their input, even if it disagreed with what he liked, he just got them FIRED, and what's left is a disorganized mess. Like someone else said, it's sort of like a hospital that was happy with the work of a plastic surgeon decided that since he can do plastic surgery, surely he can handle the cardiac care wing as well.

As an FYI, in the U.S. the ratio of 1-star ratings vs. 5-star ratings of Yosemite in the App Store is now 2:1. A new low. If you think all these people are making all this stuff up, I suggest you think again.

If you want to prove otherwise, please show a similar complaint level for any of the other OS X versions previously released. The thread "Yosemite is Ugly" on this site is one of the site leaders…second only to the complaints thread.

Not one firm description of anything there. The App store ratings is a ratio of two self-selecting groups, Apple cant deduce anything from it, you clearly don't like the design of Yosemite, I suspect Apple doesnt care because as many users think the design change is positive, or negative - their user testing feedback on controlled numbers will have told them that, not worrying about particular thread posting numbers.

----------

Do you think it would be possible for us to stay on topic?

Over 7 pages? Not a chance....its a discussion forum after all.

 

[ZVH]

There are plenty of threads in the Yosemite section to complain or praise Yosemite as one sees fit.

 

[simonsi]

There are plenty of threads in the Yosemite section to complain or praise Yosemite as one sees fit.

Sure but this page is discussing anecdotal evidence vs data as applied to SSD issues vs the OS as a whole. Not sure how close to the original question re SSD reliability and problems you expectvthe discussion to stay? Thats pretty close IMHO...there are certainly far worse cases of thread drift around...

 

[ZVH]

SSD problems and reliability have nothing to do with Yosemite, or at least they shouldn't. The only gotcha I know of is the TRIM enabler driver and that's a third party product. If you check developers documentation Apple has been implementing some of that sort of thing for some time now and it's in their online documentation for developers.

…of course if you just like having fun arguing….

 

[MacRobert10]

From a previous post:


http://techreport.com/review/27909/t...heyre-all-dead


I don't consider that "anecdotal evidence" it's a report, and IMHO an interesting one.

 

[simonsi]

From a previous post:


http://techreport.com/review/27909/t...heyre-all-dead


I don't consider that "anecdotal evidence" it's a report, and IMHO an interesting one.

What conclusions did you draw? I drew:

1. ALL the drives lasted way longer than they were specified for.
2. The nature of the eventual failure varied widely.
3. ALL drives eventually died.

Overall conclusion: SSDs will not wear out in normal usage before other factors lead to their replacement.

SSDs are obviously still subject to an ongoing rate of in-flight failures as with any other electronics. They should be treated like any other media and a backup protocol put in place appropriate to the nature of the data and its usage. Unfortunately until disk farms start to use SSDs in quantities similar to HDDs it is unlikely we will have independent, comparable data available with which to compare the rate and/or nature of the in-flight failures.

From personal experience, I certainly replaced my first SSD due to space not age or errors. Thus far my in-flight error rate is comparable to HDDs over the last 4yrs. Zero. That is not in any way a statistically-valid view though...just another anecdote...

 

[MacRobert10]

I don't see that as a conclusive study, but interesting. It gives the reader a feel for how long they'll last and what types of problems start showing up when the units do start to fail. I found the other study about sudden power outages causing data loss interesting as well.

For someone to do a real and valid study would require a realistic and reasonable sample size which would mean lots of SSDs, which would mean lots of cash. I'm sure, or at least I'd like to think, that manufacturers are doing these studies, but I'm also sure they're not going to share their results with us. Call it a hunch.

 

[ZVH]

You're generally not going to get detailed statistical studies on the web.

 

[B-Eugen]

There's anecdotal evidence and then there's wishful thinking. Yosemite "Fans" seem to be living in a state of denial. I've never seen the number of complaints about an OS X release I've seen in the app store. The ratio of 1 star to 5 star is 2:1. I've never seen a "Mavericks Looks Terrible" or "Snow Leopard Looks Terrible" or anything like that from any previous release, but in the Yosemite sections there's a "Yosemite Looks Terrible" thread and it's got nearly 300,000 views and over 3000 responses.

Please don't try and tell me this is anecdotal. 300,000 views is all that statistics I need.

 

[JTToft]

Yosemite "Fans" seem to be living in a state of denial.

- Please explain that statement. Just what are we denying?

I've never seen a "Mavericks Looks Terrible" or "Snow Leopard Looks Terrible" or anything like that from any previous release, but in the Yosemite sections there's a "Yosemite Looks Terrible" thread

- Which is hardly surprising. Yosemite is by far the most drastic change as far as UI goes since the Tiger->Leopard change.
You couldn't reasonably expect a very impassioned reaction to the UI of Mavericks or SL when it looks pretty much the same as what came before.

 

[TheBSDGuy]

I think I'd agree with the other poster that the appropriate place for Yosemite comments is in the Yosemite section.

 

[BradHatter]

Here's another one for the Gipper:

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...te-drive-technology-is-doomed-researchers-say

I noticed the article is 3 years old.