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Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
That is naïve to think that the consumer would benefit from the savings, just saying. Going the full monty in the iTunes experience would potentially bring in more readers than the 30% Apple is charging, it all depends.

more readers is worthless if ones cost a lone put it at less than 30%. That means for every copy sold they lose money not gain money.

Take for example you are selling widgets. Now each widget cost you $90 and you are selling them for a $100 at my store. Well now I step in and for you to sell them at my store you have to give $30 for each one you sell. Another rule of my store is it has to match the cheapest prices anywhere else.
Yes I triple your volume but it is now costing you $20 dollar out of your own pocket for each widget you sell.

Btw this is the Walmart principle something Apple is now doing. Walmart keeps demanding lower and lower prices from its suppliers or it will drop them. With out Walmart they go bankrupt. With walmart they go bankrupt. All because Walmart basically keeps demanding a larger and larger cut of thing margins. Apple is doing the same thing.
 

spazzcat

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2007
3,706
4,818
more readers is worthless if ones cost a lone put it at less than 30%. That means for every copy sold they lose money not gain money.

Take for example you are selling widgets. Now each widget cost you $90 and you are selling them for a $100 at my store. Well now I step in and for you to sell them at my store you have to give $30 for each one you sell. Another rule of my store is it has to match the cheapest prices anywhere else.
Yes I triple your volume but it is now costing you $20 dollar out of your own pocket for each widget you sell.

Btw this is the Walmart principle something Apple is now doing. Walmart keeps demanding lower and lower prices from its suppliers or it will drop them. With out Walmart they go bankrupt. With walmart they go bankrupt. All because Walmart basically keeps demanding a larger and larger cut of thing margins. Apple is doing the same thing.


If you are only marketing up a $90 widget to $100, your doing it wrong, by the time something reaches the customer, it's marked up 40-50% from what it cost to make...
 

Mattie Num Nums

macrumors 68030
Mar 5, 2009
2,834
0
USA
If you are only marketing up a $90 widget to $100, your doing it wrong, by the time something reaches the customer, it's marked up 40-50% from what it cost to make...

Or follow the Apple model.

Outsource to China. and still markup 40-50% the cost of not outsourcing. Now it costs $5 bucks to make but its a "Premium Widget" and sell it for $200. Don't forget to hype it up by spreading false rumors and being extremely secretive about its development.
 

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,261
942
more readers is worthless if ones cost a lone put it at less than 30%. That means for every copy sold they lose money not gain money.

Take for example you are selling widgets. Now each widget cost you $90 and you are selling them for a $100 at my store. Well now I step in and for you to sell them at my store you have to give $30 for each one you sell. Another rule of my store is it has to match the cheapest prices anywhere else.
Yes I triple your volume but it is now costing you $20 dollar out of your own pocket for each widget you sell.

Btw this is the Walmart principle something Apple is now doing. Walmart keeps demanding lower and lower prices from its suppliers or it will drop them. With out Walmart they go bankrupt. With walmart they go bankrupt. All because Walmart basically keeps demanding a larger and larger cut of thing margins. Apple is doing the same thing.

Hmmm ... there are some major problems with this argument, which is not to say that this move by Apple won't drive off content/app providers but good argumentation is important.

First: generally in digital distribution there is no per item cost as there is in selling physical items. The exception to this is if the app you are providing requires servers the cost of which may depend on the number users. However, this is more of a day to day operating cost than a true cost per item sold. Thus, in general, there is no per item cost to the creator of a digital item save for the initial cost of development and licensing.

Second: Following from the first, the revenue model is very different for physical items versus digital as in one uses the inventory model (physical) and the other uses the commission model (digital) - although physical items can use the commission model too, but generally big retailers and big content providers of physical goods use the inventory system. In the inventory system, a retailer buys a certain amount of initial run. They offer to content provider $X for a product that cost $(Y<X) for the content provider to make and sell to the consumer for $(Z>X). They look at the sales after a period of time and decide whether or not buy more and how much. A digital distributor charges $X for hosting an app on their servers ($0 in Apple's case and I believe most of the larger digital distributors) and then takes Y% revenue from each sale to the consumer. As such if a content provider offers an app for free or very, very cheap but then requires a subscription to use, then the distributor of the app, Apple, sees no revenue.

Now Walmart can drive a supplier out of business by forcing them to sell the good for less than $Y or whereby the profit margins on the cost of making a product are dwarfed by operational costs. I don't include the operational costs into $Y since then $Y fluctuates with the number of items sold - i.e. a physical product in terms of materials may cost $Y to make but had an initial investment of $W dollars to name one of many operational costs thus you have to sell at least N items such that N*($X-$Y) > $W + other day-to-day costs. Thus a $Y including $W and other operational costs fluctuates with N and is less comparable with the example below.

In Apple's model they must sell N*($X-Y%*$X) > $W + other day-to-day costs. However, if Apple's share is 0% then Apple makes no money. However, if Apple's share is too large, then as Rhapsody complains, Rhapsody may lose money. Should Apple make money? Well yes, they are the distributor of the app and using a subscription model could be seen as a way to skirt revenue sharing to the person hosting your app and platform. As someone else coined, servers don't run on dreams and kitten-cuteness - the digital distributor can also go under from lack of revenue too. Now Apple is hardly hurting for cash, but it also unclear that Rhapsody's claim is well founded since users can still buy a subscription through them.

So Apple's wish for a piece of the subscription pie is not as unreasonable as Walmart's typical business practices. However, too big of a slice and Apple will lose subscription content providers just as too big of a slice from the revenue of single-buy apps or from advertisements on free apps will drive off non-subscription/non-in-app purchase content providers. Also there are more competitors (Android) of almost equal size to Apple. So if it does indeed drive off content providers, Apple will have to mend its ways to attract them back - it has a hard time driving them out of business. No one is as big as Walmart, though I read their recent sales numbers were down (a good thing in my book).

Another way is to allow business to host online stores and subscriptions without taking a revenue cut, thus treating them as true secondary distributors, but forcing them to pay a licensing/hosting fee for selling/giving away the initial store/subscription app through the App store.
 
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manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
7,219
3,031
Or follow the Apple model.

Outsource to China. and still markup 40-50% the cost of not outsourcing. Now it costs $5 bucks to make but its a "Premium Widget" and sell it for $200.
Or partner with an industry where costs are hidden in monthly 'service' charges.
An iPhone 4 32 GB costs €739 and an iPod touch 32 GB cost €299 (*). Yes, the iPhone has the actual phone electronics, it has higher value screen (better viewing angle) and a more expansive casing. But why can Apple sell it for more than twice the iPod touch price?
Simply because the actual price is hidden for most customers in monthly charges.


(*) At the Apple online store in Germany, very similar in other European countries.
 

manu chao

macrumors 604
Jul 30, 2003
7,219
3,031
Now Walmart can drive a supplier out of business by forcing them to sell the good for less than $Y or whereby the profit margins on the cost of making a product are dwarfed by operational costs.
And Apple can drive every middleman out of business on iOS, becoming the sole middleman for all services it decides to offer itself.
Currently they offer:
- music, TV, and video sales (you cannot really easily buy an MP3 from Amazon and listen to it from the iPod app without going via a computer)
- ebooks (Kindle could easily be targeted by Apple)
- media subscriptions (Zinio could come under pressure)
They might offer soon:
- music streaming
- competitive cloud storage
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
If you are only marketing up a $90 widget to $100, your doing it wrong, by the time something reaches the customer, it's marked up 40-50% from what it cost to make...

and you are nit picking because it complete destroyes your entire argument so instead of countering it you say you screw up.

We could go look at a model like netflex which runs on small margins.
If I had to guess how their contracts work out with the movie companies Netflix pays them Y amount + X per subscriber.
Y is a flat to each one. X is based on subscribers and more than likely a majority of its subscription fees to to that.
A lot of models are based like that and that X can easily be 80-90% of the total cost. At those margins Apple would still force them to run at a lost since Apple would be sucking up another 30%.
As for subscribers fees for new customers it might be at most 1 months worth of fees. Renewal is even a smaller chunk like a few bucks per year.
 

scott992

macrumors newbie
Jan 24, 2007
3
1
Apple doesn't owe you anything. And vice versa.

1) Apple owes us nothing.
2) We owe apple nothing.
3) Apple offers items for sale on the open market.
4) Apple offers limited Partnership opportunities on the open market.

You have to decide if the price of an Apple item, or the cost of a Partnership is worth it. If not, you shouldn't do business with them.

It really is that simple.

I believe America, and to a lesser extent in some other countriÓes, is a better place for the technology that has been created out of the desire to make money. Apple has been a part of that.

Google wants to make money too. They do it through advertising, and creating platforms where they can advertise. Thus we have Android. I haven't used it personally, but it seems pretty nice from the videos I've seen. I don't think it's nicer than iOS (yet). But it does offer things that iOS doesn't. Specifically a more open market place.

This is a win for customers. If Apple is charging too much, either in terms of a money, or other costs like the pain of changing terms, DRM, etc.. Then there is room for a competitor to come in and play.

The customers, in aggregate, are the winners. There are individuals who lose out (i.e. buying an iPhone and getting "locked" in just before the ultimate Android comes out, etc.), but on the whole, in teh aggregate, the customers win.

So voice your opinion, educate yourself, and make your decision. Buy iOS or not, you are free to do whichever. But don't act as if Apple OWES something to you. They don't.
 

SpinThis!

macrumors 6502
Jan 30, 2007
480
135
Inside the Machine (Green Bay, WI)
If you are only marketing up a $90 widget to $100, your doing it wrong, by the time something reaches the customer, it's marked up 40-50% from what it cost to make...

So if you want to publish on iOS and you're a new publisher, you factor in Apple's take, compute your cost and profit, and charge the same on your site to be compliant. So if you do more marketing than Apple you can stand to make more money because you're getting more profit on every sale. The only people who are losing are the already established publishers.

If anything this raises the cost of doing business. Whether consumers are willing to pay for it is another story. People who are subscribing to the walmart theory that Apple are dictating pricing are just plain wrong. Apple isn't telling you what they want you to charge—they're telling you exactly what their take is.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,193
1,442
no one needs Apple. There are other platforms. It's a shame developers don't think they can live without $teve Job$ Just like people starting moving away from the Microsoft environment, the same can happen for Apple. Developers just need to be willing to do it, regardless of the love of their iStuff.

It just seems to me Apple is hell-bent on destroying themselves like they did in the 1990s. They wanted the most profit possible for a Mac and refused to license out the OS until it was too late to catch up with Windows and now they're in the position they were in the 80's all over again with iOS with a good market share and rave reviews and they just seem to want to drive people away from iOS now (mainly developers, but users follow suit when they cannot get software just as many people bought Windows because it had all the games and MacOS had squat by comparison, especially as the '90s dragged on).

In short, Apple is letting their greed get in the way of their common sense. You have to look at the long term results of any given action, not just the short term potential profits. If you start losing all your developers, you are on the path to losing the overall market share for your devices. In the end, Apple needs developers more than the developers need Apple because the developers can go to another platform like Android while Apple cannot make users buy iPhones like they can make developers give them 30% of everything they make in revenue.

A lot of people don't believe this now because Apple is raking in money hand-over-foot, but they were doing pretty well in the '80s too. All good things come to an end, especially when the company making the good things doesn't appreciate their developer base and ultimately their customers' needs or desires.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
So if you want to publish on iOS and you're a new publisher, you factor in Apple's take, compute your cost and profit, and charge the same on your site to be compliant. So if you do more marketing than Apple you can stand to make more money because you're getting more profit on every sale. The only people who are losing are the already established publishers.

If anything this raises the cost of doing business. Whether consumers are willing to pay for it is another story. People who are subscribing to the walmart theory that Apple are dictating pricing are just plain wrong. Apple isn't telling you what they want you to charge—they're telling you exactly what their take is.

But apple is dictating pricing. They require the deal on for the in App sale to be the same or lower than what you can get elsewhere. This forces the App store price to always be the lowest price with more than likely the highest cut compare to everyone else.
 

neutrino23

macrumors 68000
Feb 14, 2003
1,881
391
SF Bay area
I think they are pretty open, the problem is that even if you write it out in legalese it is still open to interpretation. I am not saying Apple shouldn't be more exact, but the better way to handle this is to react to changes as they happen. Apple can very easily re-address the issue as needed and that is exactly what they are probably going to do. This whole thing is very complex and honestly Apple's legal team is smarter to be vague with this stuff until there is reason to get more precise. It's a business after all.

I'm not sure I disagree with you. My thought was that Apple should have a better way for people to resolve disagreements besides sending emails to the CEO.
 
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