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The Man In The High Castle (Amazon Original Series)
- Thread starter ucfgrad93
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Here's the thing, if the Axis powers won WWII and an underground group were producing fake documentary style films showing the Allies winning, who cares... woulda, coulda, shoulda. My guess is that for this circumstance, seeing visuals of an atomic bomb falling on Nagasaki even if it did not happen is supposed to make people rebellious?
But if these films are reported to show the real ending of WWII, and some event occurred that changed the outcome and no one seems to remember, this is the alternate reality, sci-fi hook and intrigue. This aspect from of the tv series was prominently used to pull in viewers.
If anyone has read the book, I'd like to know if the book is like the show or is it only a story of people living in and dealing with a world where the Axis Powers won the war?
Speaking of the surreal ending, the Japanese Trade Minister meditates and sees a vision of a city square (San Francisco?) where clearly it's post WWII America and the good guys won.
I tend to believe this is more than his vivid imagination, and why I'll watch Seaon 2, if there is one.
But if these films are reported to show the real ending of WWII, and some event occurred that changed the outcome and no one seems to remember, this is the alternate reality, sci-fi hook and intrigue. This aspect from of the tv series was prominently used to pull in viewers.
If anyone has read the book, I'd like to know if the book is like the show or is it only a story of people living in and dealing with a world where the Axis Powers won the war?
Speaking of the surreal ending, the Japanese Trade Minister meditates and sees a vision of a city square (San Francisco?) where clearly it's post WWII America and the good guys won.
I tend to believe this is more than his vivid imagination, and why I'll watch Seaon 2, if there is one.Especially that ending, requires a lot of sorting.
Sigh. It's seems impossible to talk about this subject without giving something away...
I'm not sure what you mean when you ask about the book in regards to it being "only a story of people living in and dealing with a world where the Axis Powers won the war"...?
I read the book. Although the book's ending is somewhat "open ended", the book actually does make sense, "sense", in fact, on several different levels, thanks largely to an ample supply of hints and background info provided by the author.
In comparison to the book, the screenplay seems very shallow and somewhat "dumbed down" almost to a "soap opera" level, at least that's my impression after first viewing it... Maybe I should watch it again, but right now that seems like more a chore than something that would be enjoyable, since, for me at least, the storyline seemed to really drag in places.
I read the book. Although the book's ending is somewhat "open ended", the book actually does make sense, "sense", in fact, on several different levels, thanks largely to an ample supply of hints and background info provided by the author.
In comparison to the book, the screenplay seems very shallow and somewhat "dumbed down" almost to a "soap opera" level, at least that's my impression after first viewing it... Maybe I should watch it again, but right now that seems like more a chore than something that would be enjoyable, since, for me at least, the storyline seemed to really drag in places.
If people grew up in a world where the axis powers won, that's their reality. But in the show they use the hook of these films showing an alternate ending to the war from what everyone remembers. That's the real hook for the show, what do these films represent? Is there another reality that no one remembers but happened?
I can't wait to finish watching...just so I can go back and read all the spoiler tags in this thread!!!
Everything's a spoiler, I suppose...
In the book, rather than a film, it's a book "The Grasshopper Lies Heavy" that gives a description of an alternate reality. In that reality, the Allies won the war, although that reality is different from our reality in that FDR didn't serve for a 3rd term (among other differences, such as a cold war between the UK and the US after WWII.) This book {Grasshopper) was written by a man (who once lived in a high castle,) who used the I Ching to write much of the book, so in a sense it's the I Ching that is aware of this parallel universe. In the book, the I Ching is used by many of the characters and is a large role of the plot -- in the Amazon series the I Ching is used only by Tagomi -- in the book the I Ching is used by various characters and the I Ching is literally is responsible for "writing" about the parallel reality. In the final chapter of the book, Juliana visits the man who wrote "Grasshopper" and while there she consults the I Ching, asking if it (the I Ching) wrote the book and the I Ching's reply is basically "that the book is true," in other words the other reality (in which the Allies won the war) does exist.
In the book, Mr. Tagomi is the only character mentioned as having direct experience with an alternate reality. which happens after his visits the park, similar to how it happens in the Amazon series, although the book provides more info about Tagomi's brief stay in that reality (And Tagomi returns to his original reality, then has a heart attack, but apparently survives.)
Of course, in the Amazon series, the book is replaced by the films. One noticeable difference in the (Amazon series) films (that differs from the book) is that FDR apparently did have a 3rd term (since one of the films in the Amazon series shows FDR, Churchill, and Stalin at Yalta, which took place in Feb. 1945 (during FDR's 3rd term.) So who knows what the details of the Amazon parallel universe are? In the book, the parallel world is described in pretty good detail, but the Amazon series provides few or no details. Is the Amazon reality our reality or some other slightly different reality? (Who knows?)
Dick wrote a couple of chapters of a planned sequel to the book in which talks about parallel universes, saying that the Nazis have been traveling between them. etc. When I get the time I can post some more details on all of this here if you like. (I have the book that contains the chapters from the sequel that was never published...)
In the book, Mr. Tagomi is the only character mentioned as having direct experience with an alternate reality. which happens after his visits the park, similar to how it happens in the Amazon series, although the book provides more info about Tagomi's brief stay in that reality (And Tagomi returns to his original reality, then has a heart attack, but apparently survives.)
Of course, in the Amazon series, the book is replaced by the films. One noticeable difference in the (Amazon series) films (that differs from the book) is that FDR apparently did have a 3rd term (since one of the films in the Amazon series shows FDR, Churchill, and Stalin at Yalta, which took place in Feb. 1945 (during FDR's 3rd term.) So who knows what the details of the Amazon parallel universe are? In the book, the parallel world is described in pretty good detail, but the Amazon series provides few or no details. Is the Amazon reality our reality or some other slightly different reality? (Who knows?)
Dick wrote a couple of chapters of a planned sequel to the book in which talks about parallel universes, saying that the Nazis have been traveling between them. etc. When I get the time I can post some more details on all of this here if you like. (I have the book that contains the chapters from the sequel that was never published...)
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Everything's a spoiler, I suppose...
In the book, rather than a film, it's a book "The Grasshopper Lies Heavy" that gives a description of an alternate reality. In that reality, the Allies won the war, although that reality is different from our reality in that FDR didn't serve for a 3rd term (among other differences, such as a cold war between the UK and the US after WWII.) This book {Grasshopper) was written by a man (who once lived in a high castle,) who used the I Ching to write much of the book, so in a sense it's the I Ching that is aware of this parallel universe. In the book, the I Ching is used by many of the characters and is a large role of the plot -- in the Amazon series the I Ching is used only by Tagomi -- in the book the I Ching is used by various characters and the I Ching is literally is responsible for "writing" about the parallel reality. In the final chapter of the book, Juliana visits the man who wrote "Grasshopper" and while there she consults the I Ching, asking if it (the I Ching) wrote the book and the I Ching's reply is basically "that the book is true," in other words the other reality (in which the Allies won the war) does exist.
In the book, Mr. Tagomi is the only character mentioned as having direct experience with an alternate reality. which happens after his visits the park, similar to how it happens in the Amazon series, although the book provides more info about Tagomi's brief stay in that reality (And Tagomi returns to his original reality, then has a heart attack, but apparently survives.)
Of course, in the Amazon series, the book is replaced by the films. One noticeable difference in the (Amazon series) films (that differs from the book) is that FDR apparently did have a 3rd term (since one of the films in the Amazon series shows FDR, Churchill, and Stalin at Yalta, which took place in Feb. 1945 (during FDR's 3rd term.) So who knows what the details of the Amazon parallel universe are? In the book, the parallel world is described in pretty good detail, but the Amazon series provides few or no details. Is the Amazon reality our reality or some other slightly different reality? (Who knows?)
Dick wrote a couple of chapters of a planned sequel to the book in which talks about parallel universes, saying that the Nazis have been traveling between them. etc. When I get the time I can post some more details on all of this here if you like. (I have the book that contains the chapters from the sequel that was never published...)
Thanks much! I may read the book. Btw, do you recommend it? I was pleased with We'll Remember It For You Wholesale.
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The novel isn't very long but it's an enjoyable read. BTW, I think there's still an audio version of the complete book on YouTube...
The novel isn't very long but it's an enjoyable read. BTW, I think there's still an audio version of the complete book on YouTube...
What I find interesting is the prospect of an alternate reality and how it effects or does not effect the characters frame of mind. They are all vested in their current reality, most not aware of anything else, other than these strange films appear which motivate them to resist their oppressors, fighting for a change to something better.
I knew the Trade Minister, Tagomi was meditating, had no idea what the I Ching was. The vision that was revealed will be interesting to see how he responds to it. Regarding alternate realities, I don't believe one has more validity or power over the other, or if a person who sees it recognizes it as anything more than something they imagined. Primarily it's power seems to be as a motivator, not expecting something magic to happen like a snap from one reality to another.
More spoiler stuff in reply to Huntn...
Changing the "Grasshopper" book to a series of films just seems like a weird thing for the writers to do... In the 1960s few people would be able to actually see the films, in other words the masses certainly aren't going to watch it on their smart phones. A book on the other hand, is easy to produce and distribute and get in the hands of the masses, in the 1960s at least.
In the book, the "Grasshopper" book is being sold legally in the neutral area as well as in the Japanese control area, the Pacific States of America (PSA), so anyone could walk into a book store and buy a copy, for about $4 (I think that's the price mentioned in the book.) A book is very effective way to distribute something that gives people hope. I can't see a film being nearly as effective during the 1960s...
And given the fact that there was virtually no technology in the 1960s that would allow the films to be faked ("photoshopped", CGI, "green screens", etc.) it's probably safe to assume that the films had to brought back from another universe/reality by a person or person that is able to travel between universes/realities.
Another notable difference -- in the book there's no organized resistance group. The PSA area isn't as repressive and the Japanese in general aren't as "evil" as they are in the TV production. The Nazis on the other hand are (pure evil) but there the book doesn't have any Nazi characters (like John Smith and family, etc.) The entire novel is centered in the PSA and the neutral zone and the Japanese are generally depicted as being "spiritual" while the Nazis are all about weapons, rocket ships, and killing technology in general, and they're still on a mission to kill off all the Jews plus they're now bringing back slavery for certain non-white groups. In general, the white people living in the Nazi controlled section of America don't have life that bad. Childan, the art dealer, lives in the PSA, but since he's white and not a Jew, he's got a relatively good life and he can do what he really loves (making money.) In the book Childan shows he really clearly bought into the Nazi belief system.
Heh, I first learned about the I Ching while in college during the early 1970s, and I bought a copy of it in a tiny bookstore in town (that was famous locally for selling copies of Chairman mao's little red book.) I remember going into the store and saying to the hippy girl behind the counter "I'm looking for a rather obscure book called I Ching... I don't suppose you have it by any chance?" and to my delight she replied "Well of course we have it... What edition do you want? Do you want it in hard or soft cover? New or used?"
At any rate, all of the main characters in the book (other than Childan) make great use of the I Ching, to guide them in their lives and their decision points. I'm really surprised that the Amazon series hasn't given the I Ching a more prominent role in the series. After all, it was the I Ching plus "Wu" that enables Tagomi to travel "Out of my world, my space and time" to another universe in the book during his visit to the park...
Changing the "Grasshopper" book to a series of films just seems like a weird thing for the writers to do... In the 1960s few people would be able to actually see the films, in other words the masses certainly aren't going to watch it on their smart phones. A book on the other hand, is easy to produce and distribute and get in the hands of the masses, in the 1960s at least.
In the book, the "Grasshopper" book is being sold legally in the neutral area as well as in the Japanese control area, the Pacific States of America (PSA), so anyone could walk into a book store and buy a copy, for about $4 (I think that's the price mentioned in the book.) A book is very effective way to distribute something that gives people hope. I can't see a film being nearly as effective during the 1960s...
And given the fact that there was virtually no technology in the 1960s that would allow the films to be faked ("photoshopped", CGI, "green screens", etc.) it's probably safe to assume that the films had to brought back from another universe/reality by a person or person that is able to travel between universes/realities.
Another notable difference -- in the book there's no organized resistance group. The PSA area isn't as repressive and the Japanese in general aren't as "evil" as they are in the TV production. The Nazis on the other hand are (pure evil) but there the book doesn't have any Nazi characters (like John Smith and family, etc.) The entire novel is centered in the PSA and the neutral zone and the Japanese are generally depicted as being "spiritual" while the Nazis are all about weapons, rocket ships, and killing technology in general, and they're still on a mission to kill off all the Jews plus they're now bringing back slavery for certain non-white groups. In general, the white people living in the Nazi controlled section of America don't have life that bad. Childan, the art dealer, lives in the PSA, but since he's white and not a Jew, he's got a relatively good life and he can do what he really loves (making money.) In the book Childan shows he really clearly bought into the Nazi belief system.
Heh, I first learned about the I Ching while in college during the early 1970s, and I bought a copy of it in a tiny bookstore in town (that was famous locally for selling copies of Chairman mao's little red book.) I remember going into the store and saying to the hippy girl behind the counter "I'm looking for a rather obscure book called I Ching... I don't suppose you have it by any chance?" and to my delight she replied "Well of course we have it... What edition do you want? Do you want it in hard or soft cover? New or used?"
At any rate, all of the main characters in the book (other than Childan) make great use of the I Ching, to guide them in their lives and their decision points. I'm really surprised that the Amazon series hasn't given the I Ching a more prominent role in the series. After all, it was the I Ching plus "Wu" that enables Tagomi to travel "Out of my world, my space and time" to another universe in the book during his visit to the park...
I don't know as I haven't read the book. I really enjoyed the series and hope Amazon makes another season.
I'll throw a tip out here: I recently discovered that many of the Phillip K Dick short stories (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, We Can Remember It For You Wholesale, Minority Report, The Man in the High Castle) are available to read online as pdfs from what appear to be legitimate sites, although I can't verify that so I won't post any links. Simply google the name of the story and add pdf to the end of the search for easy finds. As I mentioned earlier as I think that is excessive, there is no way I'd spend $10 to read a short story.
Thanks! I'm going to read the story and get back with you.
Thanks! I'm going to read the story and get back with you.
Amazon series creator, Frank Spotnitz, has talked in several interviews about his dreams of making more seasons, so I'm sure he's got hours and hours worth of non-PKD soap opera elements in mind that he hopes he'll get the chance to use in future episodes that'll surely keep the masses entertained. So, the ball's in Amazon court...
Season 2 is up on Amazon Prime and I decided to rewatch episode 10 of Season 1 and then Season 2, Episode 1. Glad I did, there was quite a bit on the Season 1 finale that I had kinda...forgotten.
So far so good, actually very good as far as keeping me interested. From the aspect of the these mysterious alternate reality movies, where the heck are they coming from?
So far so good, actually very good as far as keeping me interested.
From the aspect of the these mysterious alternate reality movies, where the heck are they coming from?
Season 2 Spoiler
Four episodes into Season 2 and I'm pleased with how well the story is holding up!
Juliana meets a guy with a bunch of films and tells the Nazi's when asked, that she had met TMITHC. Hmm, is she lieing to them or does she believe that? Nothing in her discussion with him prompts me to believe he is the source of the films. Heck, he's trying to figure them out himself.
Four episodes into Season 2 and I'm pleased with how well the story is holding up!
Juliana meets a guy with a bunch of films and tells the Nazi's when asked, that she had met TMITHC. Hmm, is she lieing to them or does she believe that? Nothing in her discussion with him prompts me to believe he is the source of the films. Heck, he's trying to figure them out himself.
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Season 2 Episode 6 was a bit surreal with Tagomi spending an extended period of time in his alternate reality. Still good! I just started reading the original short story to see how it compares and aligns.
Update- Just finished Season 2 and was happy with it. I suspect the show has veered quit a bit from the original story, but I found leadership my up to finale to be tense and enjoyable. However, I read 2 critical reviews of this season, the one at Vox (spoilers) was rather caustic. I'll be curious as to what others think. I'll working on the short story.
Update- Just finished Season 2 and was happy with it. I suspect the show has veered quit a bit from the original story, but I found leadership my up to finale to be tense and enjoyable. However, I read 2 critical reviews of this season, the one at Vox (spoilers) was rather caustic. I'll be curious as to what others think. I'll working on the short story.
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I thought season 2 was great. Really hope there's a season 3.Season 2 Episode 6 was a bit surreal with Tagomi spending an extended period of time in his alternate reality. Still good! I just started reading the original short story to see how it compares and aligns.
Update- Just finished Season 2 and was happy with it. I suspect the show has veered quit a bit from the original story, but I found leadership my up to finale to be tense and enjoyable. However, I read 2 critical reviews of this season, the one at Vox (spoilers) was rather caustic. I'll be curious as to what others think. I'll working on the short story.
And FYI, the series has almost no connection to the Philip K. Dick story other than the basic premise.
So far in the book, I'm taking it slowly
, there are two characters who rely on the I Ching for guidance, Frank Frink and Trade Minister Togsmi. No mentioned n of alternate realities yet.Here is one aspect of the TV show I'll question/ consider- there is a distinct difference between hauling newsreel footage between realities, versus movies that just happen to highlight the characters in the story giving answers such as a dead guy in an alley dressed in a Nazi uniform is required to prevent WWIII. You'd never see that in a newsreel, so it must be assumed there is something more going on than just news reels.
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