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VirtualPC 7 on new Intel-based Macs?

jimthorn

jimthorn

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
580
2
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
I've been waiting to get a new iMac for my office at work until after Steve's Keynote. Since the iMacs had just been revised a few months ago, I figured nothing would change. But to my surprise, we now have Intel-based iMacs.

:confused: My question is this: I need VirtualPC 7 to run one proprietary Windows app that connects to my workplace's server. Does anyone know if VirtualPC 7 can run on Intel-based hardware? I don't care if it's slow running via Rosetta -- I figure Microsoft will release a new version later this year. But if it won't run at all (like VirtualPC 6 on G5) then I'll have to wait. I can't find a reference to anyone trying VirtualPC on developer or bootleg "OS X on Intel" systems anywhere.

Any real facts would be appreciated. Thanks all.
 
ITASOR

ITASOR

macrumors 601
Mar 20, 2005
4,398
3
Depending on how easy it is to dual boot XP and OS X on the intel macs, I was thinking that Microsoft mine as well just make a special versions of Windows:Mac that has the right drivers...although that won't happen.

They'll probably update VPC to be compatible, I think it's a money maker for them!
 
jimthorn

jimthorn

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
580
2
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Unlike a lot of people, I'm not at all interested in dual-booting Windows. I enjoy staying in OS X all the time and I like Windows right where it is on my current Mac: in a window.
 
mduser63

mduser63

macrumors 68040
Nov 9, 2004
3,042
31
Salt Lake City, UT
I believe I heard somewhere back closer to when the Intel switch was announced that MS would be providing a version of Virtual PC to run on Intel. Probably won't be until version 8 is released though.

The idea that MS would discontinue VPC now that Macs use Intel processors and VPC will work nearly full speed doesn't make sense, because VPC (including Windows) is more expensive than Windows. MS has always wanted to sell as many copies of Windows as possible. I have a feeling that they don't care if it's running on a PC, in an emulator on a PowerPC Mac or in a window on an Intel Mac. As long as it's been paid for, they're happy.
 
Mechcozmo

Mechcozmo

macrumors 603
Jul 17, 2004
5,215
2
VPC7 will be emulated in Rossetta to run x86 software.
Duh.

If you want to run x86 code, look forwards to virtualization; like emulation, but more hardware related instead of creating 'virtual hardware' as in emulation. Virtualized means that it would run next to OS X. Emulated means it runs inside OS X. That's the simple version. Virtualized stuff, because it is native, runs EXTREMELY fast. (Near-native speeds) Emulated... doesn't. (87Mhz x86 in Virtual PC, oh yeah)
:)
 
zap2

zap2

macrumors 604
Mar 8, 2005
7,252
8
Washington D.C
so it will be intel-then emulation of PPC(Rosseta)-then PPC will be emulating x86 to run Windows?

Will that make it really slow becuz its 2 emulations?
 
jimthorn

jimthorn

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
580
2
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Mechcozmo said:
VPC7 will be emulated in Rossetta to run x86 software.
Duh.
Click to expand...

I realize that's how it should work and that the emulation won't be "magically faster". I'm not worried about speed. What concerns me is that VirtualPC is written with a lot of low-level software routines that directly access the PowerPC hardware. This is why VirtualPC 6 didn't work on the G5 Macs when they were first released. Microsoft had to rewrite the app so that it would support the G5 even though the G5 emulates G4 code already. VirtualPC is one of the few apps that could have problems with Rosetta.

I'm not concerned about performance. I'm just asking if anyone knows for certain that VirtualPC actually works at all on Intel-based Macs. (I'm suspecting no, but I hope I'm wrong).
 
MisterMe

MisterMe

macrumors G4
Jul 17, 2002
10,709
69
USA
jimthorn said:
.... What concerns me is that VirtualPC is written with a lot of low-level software routines that directly access the PowerPC hardware. This is why VirtualPC 6 didn't work on the G5 Macs when they were first released. Microsoft had to rewrite the app so that it would support the G5 even though the G5 emulates G4 code already....
Click to expand...
Nonsense. VPC is just an application to MacOS and MacOS X. It's access to Mac hardware is no more special than any other application. The reason that VPC had to be rewritten for the G5 had to do with endian conversion. Older versions of the PPC had instructions dedicated to endian conversion. Those instructions are not a part of the G5's ISA.
 
jimthorn

jimthorn

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
580
2
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Thanks, MisterMe. I suppose then that VirtualPC 7 would work with Rosetta, probably with a considerable performance hit. But then I figure a better solution will be along shortly anyway, and my current work machine is an iMac G4 800MHz, so I'm used to slow VPC emulation.
 
T

Timepass

macrumors 65816
Jan 4, 2005
1,051
1
ITASOR said:
Depending on how easy it is to dual boot XP and OS X on the intel macs, I was thinking that Microsoft mine as well just make a special versions of Windows:Mac that has the right drivers...although that won't happen.

They'll probably update VPC to be compatible, I think it's a money maker for them!
Click to expand...


You are correct. It is a waste of money to make a "special versoins of Windows:Mac. Installing the windows XP with it defaut drivers that are really bad for running stuff in general but they are only there to get the computer up and running since they are designed to work with all standardes complaint hardware. After that all installed run windows update and that will download the correct drivers for the computer and most of the time they are the lastest. Worse case they are one verson older if am update came in the last month. So all the drivers for the mac would be stored online for them install and correct it.
 
dubbz

dubbz

macrumors 68020
Sep 3, 2003
2,284
0
Alta, Norway
Don't see why the won't make VirtualPC for OSX on Intel. It's not like being able to dual boot to Windows make it redundant.

They *do* after all sell Virtual PC for Windows, plus there's also VMware. Can be very useful for advanced users.
 
M

Meyvn

macrumors 6502
Feb 3, 2005
498
0
If Microsoft does not make a VPC updated, a third party developer will. What's stopping them? Hell, any Linux-producing company could do it. Then you just buy the Standalone, and get your own version of Windows to run.
 
balamw

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,366
979
New England
Nermal said:
(does VPC work on an Intel Mac?)
Click to expand...
The answer from Microsoft appears to be No. I read this last night somewhere and can't find the link right now, but apparently Roz Ho explicitly said that VPC will not run on Rosetta on Intel Macs.

EDIT: Link

Ho confirmed. However Virtual PC is not compatible with Rosetta.

'These types of products require a dedicated team and a lot of work to rebuild them for an entirely new architecture,' Ho explained. 'That said, we know that using Windows-based applications on Macs is important to our customers, and we're working with Apple to figure out the best way to bring this technology to Intel-based Macs. We'll have a better idea once we have the new machines and can accurately evaluate just what is required to transition the product.'

The hidden implication in this is that the new Macs will not run Windows natively, a restriction that might just have been a concession to the Mac BU.
Click to expand...

B
 
jimthorn

jimthorn

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
580
2
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Yes, I've been looking for the facts all morning. Here's the scoop from Roz Ho, manager of Microsoft's MacBU: "...applications like Virtual PC that are highly dependent on the OS will not run under Rosetta. These types of products require a dedicated team and a lot of work to rebuild them for an entirely new architecture."

Here's the full article:

Virtual PC 7 will not run on Intel-based Macs

My fears were proven true!

EDIT: balamw beat me to the news by a few minutes!
 
S

sebpayne

macrumors member
Nov 28, 2005
48
0
Maybe something like Xen may come to Intel Macs to allow Mac users to run Windows in near full speed under Mac OS X. Maybe the new Intel Macs will get the Xen guys working :)

Could this process be more complicated as Windows is a closed source and Mac OS X is semi-open...
 
jimthorn

jimthorn

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
580
2
Huntington Beach, CA, USA
Microsoft MacBU is planning on releasing Office 2004 in universal binary format (free upgrade) in March. Hopefully, they can have Virtual PC ready by then as well.

EDIT: New thread started with article on MacRumors front page.
 
Mechcozmo

Mechcozmo

macrumors 603
Jul 17, 2004
5,215
2
dubbz said:
Don't see why the won't make VirtualPC for OSX on Intel. It's not like being able to dual boot to Windows make it redundant.

They *do* after all sell Virtual PC for Windows, plus there's also VMware. Can be very useful for advanced users.
Click to expand...

VPC for Windows and for OS X are very different. I suspect the VPC for Windows will be ported to OS X on x86.

sebpayne said:
Maybe something like Xen may come to Intel Macs to allow Mac users to run Windows in near full speed under Mac OS X. Maybe the new Intel Macs will get the Xen guys working :)

Could this process be more complicated as Windows is a closed source and Mac OS X is semi-open...
Click to expand...

Xen requires, if I'm not mistaken, recompilation of software for use to be virtualized. QEMU with the virtualization module doesn't. Linkety
 
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