WayTools' TextBlade Keyboard to Start Shipping to Test Group Users Next Week

[dabigkahuna]

Well, if it doesn't do Dvorak, it will be hard to test typing on it in the store - I'd just get gibberish!

I'll try to post stuff here about the TextBlade though most of it would be on the WT forums.
[doublepost=1456141712][/doublepost]

you ignored the second sentence you quoted. They did string us along. That's not opinion.

Depends on how you mean "string us along". Most often that is used in a very negative way - essentially an effort to mislead. If that is how you meant it, then it is an assumption.

And just because you haven't ever seen a delay this long doesn't mean it isn't for legitimate reasons. This thing is darn complicated tech. Look how long it took Apple just to figure out how to do a white iPhone!

Near-total lack of communication to the customer body.

Not enough communication, but not "near-total lack". That's like the other poster who claimed nothing was said about the delays, but they have actually said quite a bit - though still not enough. To take just one example, they went through a lot of explanation, and pictures, about the last hardware problem. No need to exaggerate things if you want to complain.

I have no objection to complaints about charging credit cards, for example. Lots of perfectly good things to legitimately criticize out there.

I also find it kinda amusing to complain about the writer not covering everything you want them to, yet leaving out key things themselves.

 

[Night Spring]

Well, if it doesn't do Dvorak, it will be hard to test typing on it in the store - I'd just get gibberish!

So you don't type in standard layout at all? That'd make your experience with TextBlade quite interesting, as I assume the first thing you'd be doing is programming the thing to do Dvorak layout. Or does it come with a Dvorak preset?

Not enough communication, but not "near-total lack".

That's a matter of interpretation, isn't it? What may be "not enough" communication to you could seem like a "near-total lack" to another person.

 

[dabigkahuna]

So you don't type in standard layout at all? That'd make your experience with TextBlade quite interesting, as I assume the first thing you'd be doing is programming the thing to do Dvorak layout. Or does it come with a Dvorak preset?

Yep, all Dvorak - except on iPhone or iPad when typing on the screen using no technique at all! I ordered a Dvorak model. That's one of the things I like about this. When I researched some keyboards years ago to get one with Dvorak keys, they cost MUST more than qwerty. I use an Apple wireless keyboard with the Mac OS making the conversion from that keyboard. With TextBlade, I get the key setup I want (they have a number of options) and the price is the same.

My test unit may be qwerty though (they may not have made the key batches for Dvorak yet - I don't know). If it is qwerty, later they'll send me the correct version. Meanwhile, I'd have a choice of using it just like the Apple keyboard - letting the Mac OS handle the conversion - or I could make the change in the TextBlade code even though the keys will be wrong.

It really is amazing at what it is supposed to be able to do and how it does it. Even people that have followed it regularly often forget how it all works because the info on the forum has accumulated over a long period of time. I did a couple threads there where I put up a series of long posts which contained all the various information WT provided so it would be in one place. For example, this one covering the various updates on progress during October:

https://forum.waytools.com/t/status-update-records/1205

And there are a bunch of my posts going through WT comments on how the thing works here, covering months of their posts:

https://forum.waytools.com/t/status-update-records/1205

Going through these, in one place, helps to get a better feel for what it going on. These were put up in November, so they don't include anything posted - especially problems - that came after that.

 

[palmfox]

Well, one can always find questions to ask - never ends. And can declare their question to be more important than anything else. But the fact is, a lot in her article was, in fact, negative.

But if we are to make this particular issue the defining one, let's be more complete. None of us can know what you did privately, but I did see some that were public so we'll go with those.

I don't think they should have canceled anyone so, on the basic principle, I agree with you.

I got involved in their forum months after it opened so I first saw these things referred to as being in the past and they read much like yours - that they expressed some complaints and were canceled.

So I started reading back to old posts to get the full picture and, while I still don't agree with the cancellations, there was definitely more to it than what I had been told.

Essentially the ones I saw were quite upset and strongly spoken (or even nasty) so Waytools "justification" was that if they were that upset, it was best to do a refund. Again, I don't agree. But my first point is, we aren't talking about people just asking things. Not the ones I saw that were public.

But that's a minor point since I still don't think they should have cancelled. The bigger thing is what everyone has left out. That after cancelling them, WT still let them reorder AND RETAIN THEIR PLACE IN LINE.

Sure, that isn't satisfactory to many so no problem with the complaint. But if the issue here is to give a complete story, then you should too. Balanced.

I gave a complete story. You do not see me in ANY of the rants. I preferred to keep my complaints private. My emails were professional and private asking for details on shipments on a "pre-production" product. It was only after I was cancelled without cause, that I escalated my concerns and asked for the CEO. Despite repeated attempts to ask for the name of the person who was addressing me, I was not given a response.

This is all beside the point. The point I was trying to make is that I don't feel this is balanced journalism. You tell me that I should be balanced. I don't put myself out as a journalist. I don't have to be balanced as a consumer. A journalist must be balanced, or if not, then that should be stated up front. By the way, I like some of Julie's articles. I am not, like others, attempting to bash or discredit her. I am simply stating that this article is not unbiased journalism.

I would not trust Waytools at all at this point. If their customer service is this poor before the product is even shipped, I would not want to try to obtain customer service from this company after I have received the product.

Does this sound like a reputable company?

1. They lied about being in pre-production.
2. They won't identify themselves individually in any of their correspondence.
3. They cancel an order without cause. (and by the way they would not reinstated my order. They did say they would allegedly keep my place in line, after I was required to fill out a survey! After some follow up emails, they have failed to respond to that inquiry as well.)
4. There is no customer support number, so the only contact is email.

 

[Kabeyun]

Depends on how you mean "string us along".

Not enough communication, but not "near-total lack".

It looks like this debate has degenerated to semantics, so I'm waiving off.

I hope you and everyone else get your units this Spring. I really do.

 

[gimikinc]

Looks like a useful product and love the form factor, but the poor comms and missed delivery reminds me of several failed kickstarter campaigns I've experienced.

 

[KaliYoni]

If their customer service is this poor before the product is even shipped, I would not want to try to obtain customer service from this company after I have received the product.

In addition, WayTools' development and customer service practices have made its "technology guarantee" for pre-release purchasers meaningless. It would be a simple matter to delay and obscure the release of upgraded hardware until the free replacement period expires, particularly since many remaining buyers accept (with some even defending) the actions of WayTools' managers.
[doublepost=1456161474][/doublepost]

It looks like this debate has degenerated to semantics

And on the subject of semantics, what WayTools is doing isn't a Ponzi scheme. A Ponzi or pyramid scheme uses funds gathered from later victims to pay earlier victims a promised return, in an insidious corruption of a virtuous cycle. WayTools' unethical action was to present a speculative transaction or participation in an angel round of funding as the purchase of a product within a month or two of its imminent release.

 

[Night Spring]

WayTools' unethical action was to present a speculative transaction or participation in an angel round of funding as the purchase of a product within a month or two of its imminent release.

Agreed. I recall one of their excuses for the long delays was that unexpected problems crop up when you move from limited product runs for prototypes to mass production. Well, those problems with mass production should have been worked out before the product was presented as ready for general release. If they needed money to fund the move to mass production, then they should have gone the Kickstarter route instead of taking pre-orders and charging people before the product was ready to ship.

 

[Pushpaw]

Well, I've cancelled. The fact that they did this whole 'TREG' thing without bothering to let anyone know was kind of the final straw for me. (And by letting anybody know, I mean with an email or something. Who would still be going to their 'blog' or checking your order status on any regular basis at this point?) But the truth is a little over a year ago when I 'preordered' a device that was supposed to be about ready to ship I was really interested in it. Now I have lost all interest. Reading the MR article and then this thread just made me question if I still even wanted the damn thing, and I realized that I don't care anymore.

The refund process may be the only thing that they are doing well. It seemed to go without a hitch.

 

[shareef777]

Well, I've cancelled. The fact that they did this whole 'TREG' thing without bothering to let anyone know was kind of the final straw for me. (And by letting anybody know, I mean with an email or something. Who would still be going to their 'blog' or checking your order status on any regular basis at this point?) But the truth is a little over a year ago when I 'preordered' a device that was supposed to be about ready to ship I was really interested in it. Now I have lost all interest. Reading the MR article and then this thread just made me question if I still even wanted the damn thing, and I realized that I don't care anymore.

The refund process may be the only thing that they are doing well. It seemed to go without a hitch.

I'd imagine the refunds are completed properly as people would otherwise go the route of filing a fraud claim. Too many 'fraudulent' claims comes the wrath of Visa/MasterCard/Discover/AmericanExpress.

 

[dabigkahuna]

I gave a complete story. You do not see me in ANY of the rants. I preferred to keep my complaints private. My emails were professional and private asking for details on shipments on a "pre-production" product.

As I said from the start, I can't evaluate a private event. I can only look at the public ones on the same issue. No, I'm not saying you are lying. There is no way to tell. However, in my line of work, I do have people who, after the fact, claim that they were polite, etc, and I was a witness to know darn well they were not. Not saying that about you - again, I have no way to know. But since it does often happen and I have no way to tell, my focus must be on cases I do know about.

And I do know you didn't give the complete story when you left out the option to get back in line. That may not be a good WT response to you, whatever the other details, but it is a very important part of the story.

And while you may not hold yourself to the same standards you expect from others, I expect anyone who objects to what others do to meet their own standards.

In summary, I'll repeat again, I have objected to many things from WT. I do not consider this article to be biased. She was asked to do a story, including some specific questions. She did so. She didn't cover YOUR concern - which, as far as I know, has not been repeated for a very long time (maybe WT wised up). No one covers everything.

 

[Night Spring]

No one covers everything.

True, no one covers everything. So you are suggesting we overlook Juli not covering everything palmfox wanted her to cover, but when palmfox leaves out something you think should be included, you take them to task for that?

BTW, I went back and reread Juli's previous article on TectBlade, where she discusses the reasons for the delays. And I felt like I was reading one of WayTools' overly detailed posts you described earlier. I think Juli failed to edit herself when she wrote that article, and that is probably why when I read that previous article, I was left with the impression that she was acting as a mouth piece for WayTools. There are so many problems listed there, and they were all supposedly discovered then resolved in the time between when WayTools started taking preorders, and when Juii wrote that article, a span of several months. That just doesn't sound realistic to me, given the number and nature of the problems that were listed. A good journalist would question the information she was being told, perhaps check with other industry sources to see whether the timeline was realistic, but Juli seems to have accepted whatever WayTools told her without question.

 

[testcard]

There's a world of difference between a trained journalist and someone who writes blog posts on tech.

 

[shareef777]

There's a world of difference between a trained journalist and someone who writes blog posts on tech.

And there should be a difference between a blogger for a fairly large and well known site and a paid amazon reviewer!

 

[Night Spring]

There's a world of difference between a trained journalist and someone who writes blog posts on tech.

And there should be a difference between a blogger for a fairly large and well known site and a paid amazon reviewer!

I don't think Juli is as bad as a paid Amazon reviewer, but maybe the problem is that she isn't a trained journalist, and the story was originally supposed to be a blog post on a new product, but the delays have made the situation so complex it needs a trained journalist to cover it adequately.

 

[testcard]

Agreed. Either the story should be handed over to someone who can research and write the story objectively, or else spike it until TextBlade is shipping and then write a review.

 

[KaliYoni]

The last few comments bring us back to the most salient point for this discussion: how should MacRumors cover the TextBlade going forward (and any other pre-release, exclusive articles it agrees to write)?

I think it comes down to what kind of website MacRumors wants to be. If MacRumors wants to maintain a reputation for objectivity and a focus on concerns of Apple users, I think it needs to take a hard look at how it covered WayTools and at the tone and perspective used in writing about the TextBlade. It also should take care to be extremely scrupulous about disclosing anything that could be construed as a conflict of interest. At a minimum, the review of the TextBlade should be written by somebody who has not been directly involved in what's been going on for over a year now.

If, on the other hand, MacRumors prefers to be an anything-goes-caveat-emptor-industry-gossip kind of site (MacTMZ? MacBreitbart?), then it can freely ignore what a lot of us have been saying here. The tradeoff, of course, is MacRumors will have zero credibility when it wants to publish serious news, opinions, or reviews.

Personally, my perception of the content on MacRumors has changed over the course of the WayTools situation. While I initially thought the first preview article, with its uncharacteristic resemblance to a press release, was an outlier and was due to enthusiasm over a unique idea, I now view non-Apple product news on MacRumors with some skepticism.

 

[dabigkahuna]

In addition, WayTools' development and customer service practices have made its "technology guarantee" for pre-release purchasers meaningless. It would be a simple matter to delay and obscure the release of upgraded hardware until the free replacement period expires, particularly since many remaining buyers accept (with some even defending) the actions of WayTools' managers.

Yep, they could simply delay any improvement for a year just to make the guarantee meaningless. Or it could be that it doesn't end up needing important hardware improvements. Or, gee, they may make some and the guarantee helps buyers.

You don't mention names, but since I have argued against some of the criticism of WT, it seems you may be referring to me as defending their actions. Uh, exactly which actions have I (or whoever you refer to) defended bad actions? I've said they shouldn't have canceled orders. I've said they should have communicated more and better.
[doublepost=1456178623][/doublepost]

Well, those problems with mass production should have been worked out before the product was presented as ready for general release.

Maybe. Or maybe they thought they did and turned out to be wrong. Most of my family works in manufacturing and it isn't all that rare for a problem to show up during mass production that you thought working fine.
[doublepost=1456179002][/doublepost]

So you are suggesting we overlook Juli not covering everything palmfox wanted her to cover, but when palmfox leaves out something you think should be included, you take them to task for that?

Nope. My issue with palmfox was that an issue was made about leaving something out (something which, as far as I know, isn't even happening anymore) but on the very issue that was presented as so important, they left out a rather major fact.
[doublepost=1456179402][/doublepost]

There's a world of difference between a trained journalist and someone who writes blog posts on tech.

I've been seeing this argument a lot lately, usually in more detail, but I submit you are inaccurate. There are plenty of cases of "trained journalists" who are very well known violating most of the things listed as what a journalist does. Then too, I don't care if someone is "trained" or not. A person is or is not a journalist based on what they do, not credentials or with getting approval from the "right people".

Juli did a story on where things stand with the TB at this point. I only saw one item that can remotely be questioned - that they would be this:

"Starting late next week, pre-order customers who signed up for the TextBlade Test Release Group (TREG) in January and were accepted will start receiving TextBlade shipments."

It would have been better to say that Waytools said that was what they would do because, as we all know, sometimes announced times don't happen. But that's about it and hardly a big deal. Regardless, we'll soon see if they start the shipping this week as they said - but also qualified elsewhere as dependent on other testing.

 

[Night Spring]

Maybe. Or maybe they thought they did and turned out to be wrong. Most of my family works in manufacturing and it isn't all that rare for a problem to show up during mass production that you thought working fine.

Well, for instance, right now, they are producing a run of 200 units to test before they ship to general public. So couldn't they have done such a test last year, before taking any preorders? I mean, yeah, going from test runs to mass production would uncover problems. That just seems common sense. So doesn't the industry have procedures in place to discover and fix these things before offering products to the public?

 

[dabigkahuna]

but the delays have made the situation so complex it needs a trained journalist to cover it adequately.

Complexity depends on what is being covered. Primarily this was in response to WT forum customers emailing Juli to do a follow-up. Not an investigation into canceling orders long ago.

There was plenty of good information there and a review of problems in their history.

 

[Night Spring]

Nope. My issue with palmfox was that an issue was made about leaving something out (something which, as far as I know, isn't even happening anymore) but on the very issue that was presented as so important, they left out a rather major fact.

You thought it was a major fact, palmfox apparently didn't. What is important to you may not seem important to another person, and vice versa.

 

[dabigkahuna]

At a minimum, the review of the TextBlade should be written by somebody who has not been directly involved in what's been going on for over a year now.

And if they had someone else do the story and it came out the same, I'll tell you what the reaction would have been: "They should have assigned the original person who wrote about it because they have a better background on what has already happened."

 

[Night Spring]

Complexity depends on what is being covered. Primarily this was in response to WT forum customers emailing Juli to do a follow-up. Not an investigation into canceling orders long ago.

There was plenty of good information there and a review of problems in their history.

When I said complex, I wasn't thinking particularly about the situation with the cancellation, but the excuses that WayTool gave for the long delay, and whether those excuses were credible.

 

[dabigkahuna]

Well, for instance, right now, they are producing a run of 200 units to test before they ship to general public. So couldn't they have done such a test last year, before taking any preorders?

Not exactly. As I understand things, they have a lot of these devices and are producing more all the time. During recent weeks they have also been correcting that one remaining hardware issue - so by now lots of those would be available. That just leaves the final firmware version to be put in. So it isn't like they are saying, "Let's make 200 of these and send out". No, they are part of the regular production. As for doing this in the past, that may well have been a good idea. Though one can always say, "You should have had more testers" no matter how much testing already existed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Someone at the WT forums, I think, pointed out that this is probably new territory for the company as the NextEngine parent company wasn't making something that had to be produced in the tens or hundreds of thousands.
[doublepost=1456180125][/doublepost]

You thought it was a major fact, palmfox apparently didn't. What is important to you may not seem important to another person, and vice versa.

You don't think there is a rather large difference between permanently canceling an order and canceling and letting them not only reorder, but retain their place in line?

But if personal opinion of what is important is the issue, then I submit that a complaint about something that is no longer even happening is fairly unimportant now.
[doublepost=1456180306][/doublepost]

When I said complex, I wasn't thinking particularly about the situation with the cancellation, but the excuses that WayTool gave for the long delay, and whether those excuses were credible.

People may believe them or not, but there is nothing that isn't credible that I see. Not saying it is truthful - or not - only that I have no problem seeing a long series of problems, or of just a couple problems that are really hard to solve, delaying things for a very long time. Again, this thing is complicated and new technology. Considering how long it took Apple to create a white iPhone, clearly it isn't hard to think this thing was hard to get right.

 

[Night Spring]

Someone at the WT forums, I think, pointed out that this is probably new territory for the company as the NextEngine parent company wasn't making something that had to be produced in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

Yeah. I don't think they set out to intentionally deceive or string people along, but it's obvious they chewed off a lot more than they could handle.
[doublepost=1456180958][/doublepost]

You don't think there is a rather large difference between permanently canceling an order and canceling and letting them not only reorder, but retain their place in line?

If I recall correctly, palmfox's main point was that his/her order got cancelled, even though he/she was always polite to WayTools. That WayTools later offered to reinstate his/her order wasn't that important to palmfox. You and palmfox can argue amongst yourselves about how important that is or isn't, but from my point of view, you calling out palmfox for leaving that out is the same as palmfox calling Juli out for whatever it was he/she thought Juli should have covered in her article. (And I hate using he/she, but "they" seems confusing in this context. Grrrrr.)
[doublepost=1456181399][/doublepost]

Considering how long it took Apple to create a white iPhone, clearly it isn't hard to think this thing was hard to get right.

But if my memory serves, Apple didn't string people along by saying "white iPhone coming next week!" every other week.